482 replies to this topic

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Aresye Kerensky, on 17 December 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

CERLL will need a reduction on its duration if it's going to take over the long range game from the CLPL. Not anything drastic, but perhaps something like 1.4 instead of 1.5.

I feel some energy changes are in order, IMO.

I'd like to see:
cLPL drop to 10 damage, 9 heat, 1s beam duration
cERLL drop to 10 damage, 9 heat, 1.30s beam duration
cERML drop to 6 damage, 5 heat, 1s beam duration

IS LPL drop to 10 damage


I'm also waiting to see what new clan quirks are coming down the pipes. Some of the mechs need it. Like the Summoner, Sad Cat, and Nova.

[Pariah Devalis]

Sad cat needs more than quirks. It needs two more energy hardpoints. And possibly removable MASC. Ditto in the last for the EXE.

[Revis Volek]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 December 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

I feel some energy changes are in order, IMO.

I'd like to see:
cLPL drop to 10 damage, 9 heat, 1s beam duration
cERLL drop to 10 damage, 9 heat, 1.30s beam duration
cERML drop to 6 damage, 5 heat, 1s beam duration

IS LPL drop to 10 damage


I'm also waiting to see what new clan quirks are coming down the pipes. Some of the mechs need it. Like the Summoner, Sad Cat, and Nova.

Are there new clan quirks coming? I was under the impression that PGI felt Clan mechs (as a whole, because thats how they grade them, no one there has the ability to look at mechs individually i guess) were too strong, thus why only IS get quirks for the most part.


I also agree that the correct thing to change right now is to make lasers LESS of a no brainer. Drop DMG and make it more of a toss up between other weapons systems. This also in turn maybe will help increase TTK in some ways.

Pariah Devalis, on 17 December 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Sad cat needs more than quirks. It needs two more energy hardpoints. And possibly removable MASC. Ditto in the last for the EXE.

McGral and myself had proposed this before, we need a PGI variant that has a 2-3 E Torso with makes you choose between ECM or More lasers.

That way you can actually boat 5 lasers, weather you will be able to cool them is another story.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

Are there new clan quirks coming? I was under the impression that PGI felt Clan mechs (as a whole, because thats how they grade them, no one there has the ability to look at mechs individually i guess) were too strong, thus why only IS get quirks for the most part.


I also agree that the correct thing to change right now is to make lasers LESS of a no brainer. Drop DMG and make it more of a toss up between other weapons systems. This also in turn maybe will help increase TTK in some ways.



McGral and myself had proposed this before, we need a PGI variant that has a 2-3 E Torso with makes you choose between ECM or More lasers.

That way you can actually boat 5 lasers, weather you will be able to cool them is another story.

I dunno, but there are mechs that need them. Badly.

If they gave us a LT with 3E, we'd be able to run 6 ERMLs, 18DHS, and TC1. Which is lot better than what we currently have available.

[Deathlike]

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:

Are there new clan quirks coming? I was under the impression that PGI felt Clan mechs (as a whole, because thats how they grade them, no one there has the ability to look at mechs individually i guess) were too strong, thus why only IS get quirks for the most part.

We're leaving it to Paul, where the soft Maddog (and Scat) are still left in a terrible unquirked state (well, that and the Mist Lynx which has quirks, and is still bad).

Edited by Deathlike, 17 December 2015 - 02:19 PM.

[Pjwned]

Aresye Kerensky, on 17 December 2015 - 01:41 PM, said:

CERLL will need a reduction on its duration if it's going to take over the long range game from the CLPL. Not anything drastic, but perhaps something like 1.4 instead of 1.5.

Sounds reasonable, I know that 1.5 second burn time is pretty damn long.

[Mazzyplz]

erppcs are already too hot.

and you cannot use erppcs to fight any gauss mech. you end up losing

at least when engaging the gauss mechs at long range

[Pjwned]

Big Tin Man, on 17 December 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Guys, I know and respect a lot of your opinions here, but you are all missing the real problem that brought the nerfing of PPC's in the first place

#neverforget
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ac5bad163cac11d

This guy. 60 point PPFLD GGCLOSE GETREKT SCRUB with 15 points of splash damage. He also had a cousin with more armor, more heatsinks but only 2 CERPPC's.

You need to make your balance decisions to stop this from coming back, while improving PPC's to a point where they're useful for all others.

Simply buffing the speed and tweaking heat will bring this meta darling back in an instant. Don't kid yourselves, it will happen. The cooldowns were not usually relevant, as it typically would 1 shot KO a damaged medium, or drop a fresh IS XL Medium with a shoulder hit. Two alpha's in 5 seconds takes the shoulder off a king crab.

Maybe the answer is to link gauss, LL, LPL's and PPC's in the same ghost heat category as high energy weapons? Apply stupidly massive penalties for more than 3 shot at once? Some other draconian measure?

THE DIREWOLF MUST BE ADDRESSED.

The solution to that is addressing convergence, there's nothing wrong with the build itself.

[0bsidion]

Big Tin Man, on 17 December 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Guys, I know and respect a lot of your opinions here, but you are all missing the real problem that brought the nerfing of PPC's in the first place

#neverforget
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ac5bad163cac11d

This guy. 60 point PPFLD GGCLOSE GETREKT SCRUB with 15 points of splash damage. He also had a cousin with more armor, more heatsinks but only 2 CERPPC's.

You need to make your balance decisions to stop this from coming back, while improving PPC's to a point where they're useful for all others.

Simply buffing the speed and tweaking heat will bring this meta darling back in an instant. Don't kid yourselves, it will happen. The cooldowns were not usually relevant, as it typically would 1 shot KO a damaged medium, or drop a fresh IS XL Medium with a shoulder hit. Two alpha's in 5 seconds takes the shoulder off a king crab.

Maybe the answer is to link gauss, LL, LPL's and PPC's in the same ghost heat category as high energy weapons? Apply stupidly massive penalties for more than 3 shot at once? Some other draconian measure?

THE DIREWOLF MUST BE ADDRESSED.

So give the DWF some negative PPC quirks, what's the big deal? It's not really fair for one or two chassis to be the reason nobody else can have nice things.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

So I think we can all agree on a few things:

1) Too hot
2) Projectile too slow
3) Poor damage-to-heat ratio

For the same weight, right now, the LPL is superior to the PPC at almost all ranges except extreme ranges. Seems okay? Nope. Point 2 makes the PPC rather useless. Even assaults can dodge PPCs by decelerating or accelerating at 540m, where the PPC bolt takes about half a second to arrive. Compound this with dodgy hitreg and ping, and you've got a recipe for disaster. I think I'm a fairly good shot with PPCs, with 75% accuracy with them - and even at 540 distance, I would say that landing a PPC shot is a fairly risky proposition. If I miss, it's +10 heat to me for no damage at all. If I hit, I do 10 damage for 10 heat. The LPL, on the other hand, would do 9 damage at that distance. Full damage if quirked like the RVN-4X, for less heat. Given the easier hitscan nature of the weapon, I would say that even if we assume accuracy was 95%, then the LPL would still do on average 8.55 damage vs 7.50 damage of PPCs if accuracy was factored in.

I think it would be fair to drop the heat as much as 3-4 points, to be honest, if they don't increase projectile speed. Right now, they're in a stupid position: in their optimal range, they still get out-traded by a faster-firing, cooler LPL. They have a minimum range, if not ERPPC. If they ARE ERPPC, then the heat problem is made even worse, for little gain. For a weapon system that is more difficult to use, it has very little reward other than the dubious merit of being FLD for a long-range weapon with the same projectile speed of an AC5 shell.

One thing that really is a headscratcher for me is how it is supposedly okay for the ERLL to gain 50% range in exchange for just +1 heat. It's a hitscan weapon. Hitscan. It is EASY to use; no lead-time, no time-to-target estimation. Point-click-win. How is it justified for the ERPPC to get 50% range in exchange for 50% increase in heat!?

So I think one of these could be fair:

a. Drop standard PPC heat by 2 points, so it becomes 8 heat for 10 damage. Drop ERPPC heat by 4 points, so it becomes 11 heat for 10 damage. It is still the same weight as a comparable LPL. It is FLD, but is not hitscan, so it is more difficult to aim. Projectile speed is unchanged.
b. Drop standard PPC heat by 1 point, so it becomes 9 heat for 10 damage. Drop ERPPC heat by 2.5 points, so it becomes 12.5 heat for 10 damage. Increase projectile speed to 1400m/s for standard PPC, and 1500m/s for ERPPC.
c. Introduce Light PPCs, which have much better tonnage efficiency, so we can pack more DHS to compensate. These are 3-ton, 5-damage, 5-heat weapons with the same range as the standard PPC. This, however, is introduced in 3067, so I'm not sure if PGI will lore-break on this.

Edited by ArcturusWolf, 17 December 2015 - 02:30 PM.

[LordNothing]

i want more ecm disruption time across the board. bring it up from 4 seconds to 5 or 6. gives it a bit of utility. is ppc should also provide this even inside minimum range (even if no or reduced damage) so you can bust the ecm on that light thats bugging you. if nothing else i want this.

er ppcs should get a 150 m/s buff to their current velocity. normal ppc should keep the current value.

give them more heat on target. low fire rate and high heat means this will never be troll worthy.

i kind of like the splash damage the clan erppc provides in some situations. i still want to see 12 damage. since it can currently deal 10 direct and 2.5x2 splash, you still have 3 damage you can splash around. leave heat where it is, its the cost of the damage buff. is erppc can use 1 or 2 less heat from the clan version since it doesnt have splash.

the least used of the 3 is the is ppc and the minimum range is the reason i dont use it. i always prefer a little heat vs having a weapon i cant use in close quarters in an emergency. scaling damage down to 5 kind of works, but i really dont see the reason for not letting us do full damage inside 90 meters. partial is an ok solution but what if we just get rid of it and take the optimal range down 100m and the maximum down 200 make it a moderate range weapon.

Edited by LordNothing, 17 December 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Apparently someone caught some footage of me brawling with an ERPPC.



I'm not sure I should have been able to beat a pair of hurt SRM brawlers with a Gauss+ERPPC mech...but because of the moderate cooldown on the PPC, it isn't the worst choice at that role (and far better than MGs).

Gauss nerf did hurt it in this role.
I'd like to effectively use the ERPPC past 500M (~2/3rds it's effective range), but the Gauss is far better at that range.

Heat, as seen with a Basic but not Doubled mech, is a concern with a single ERPPC (and 11 DHS). Heat is an alternative way to help them, but we've gone that route before, and it lead to Brawling ERPPCs.
If you touch up the cooldown and down on heat, I guess it cuts down on DPS, and velocity up at the same time allows for a better long range weapon, worse short range weapon.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 December 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Sad cat needs more than quirks. It needs two more energy hardpoints. And possibly removable MASC. Ditto in the last for the EXE.

Not removable MASC. MASC just has to be worth a ratturd in anything under an Assault.

That said, thought this was a Topic on PPCs, not how to save every bad mech, feed starving children in 3rd world nations and bring balance to the Force.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 December 2015 - 02:46 PM.

[Christof Romulus]

Changed I would make (assuming quirks for the PPC/ERPPC were removed):
PPC - Increase speed by 50%.
ERPPC - Decrease starting projectile velocity to 200m/s which accelerates to 5000m/s at 810meters over 1.8 seconds

The PPC is a mid range stand-off weapon. 1 heat for 1 damage makes the weapon already painful enough, it's just difficult to hit with when compared to autocannons that fire at that rage who have the heat and re-fire rate to compensate rapidly.

Changes to the ERPPC would make it a competitive sniping weapon against the ERLL and Gauss rifle. The weapon would be poor in close range due to the poor projectile speed, but the weapon would not be penalized against long-range targets (in fact, it would be remarkably easier to hit) that it is meant to engage.

[Bishop Steiner]

Christof Romulus, on 17 December 2015 - 02:59 PM, said:

Changed I would make (assuming quirks for the PPC/ERPPC were removed):
PPC - Increase speed by 50%.
ERPPC - Decrease starting projectile velocity to 200m/s which accelerates to 5000m/s at 810meters over 1.8 seconds

The PPC is a mid range stand-off weapon. 1 heat for 1 damage makes the weapon already painful enough, it's just difficult to hit with when compared to autocannons that fire at that rage who have the heat and re-fire rate to compensate rapidly.

Changes to the ERPPC would make it a competitive sniping weapon against the ERLL and Gauss rifle. The weapon would be poor in close range due to the poor projectile speed, but the weapon would not be penalized against long-range targets (in fact, it would be remarkably easier to hit) that it is meant to engage.

if it takes 1.8 seconds to accelerate to 5000m/s at 810 meter range, not seeing how that makes them easier to hit at range with. Also mechs like the Warhammer, featuring dual PPCs were considered close combat machines, even with the minimum range on PPCs.


Lastly, while an interesting idea, probably take a lot more effort to code, and thus less likely to actually be implemented. Also, 1800 m/s PPCs, IMO are too fast, on average. Yeah, easier to hit with, but we've already had the skies full of lightning before... and IMO it was a less fun than even the current laservomit is.

[Big Tin Man]

0bsidion, on 17 December 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

So give the DWF some negative PPC quirks, what's the big deal? It's not really fair for one or two chassis to be the reason nobody else can have nice things.

FWIW, the Mauler and King Crab can also run 2x gauss + 2x PPC. I'd rather see a mechanic that discourages 40+ point PPFLD alphas from 500m+ than nerfing specific weapons on specific chassis.

I want PPC's to be viable. I really do, but apparently I'm the only person that remembers just how bad the Gauss/PPC meta was.

[Arandmoor]

Don't touch heat.

Don't touch damage.

Bump the optimal range. PPCs are supposed to have longer ranges than lasers. Because of laser's ease-of-use advantage, PPCs could simply double-down on their range advantage to give them a niche.

[Mcgral18]

Big Tin Man, on 17 December 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

FWIW, the Mauler and King Crab can also run 2x gauss + 2x PPC. I'd rather see a mechanic that discourages 40+ point PPFLD alphas from 500m+ than nerfing specific weapons on specific chassis.

I want PPC's to be viable. I really do, but apparently I'm the only person that remembers just how bad the Gauss/PPC meta was.

The PPC meta had 8 heat PPCs, 12 heat ERPPCs, 2KM/s travel speeds (swapped with Gauss at one point to 1500M/s) and a 3 second recycle.
Lasers had poor hitreg and generally sucked balls.

It would be hard to make them more powerful than that, and the LPLs are good weapons now (while before were quite bad).


What you want are both weapon systems to be relevant, and not one dominate at everything.
Back then, PPCs were good at long range, and excellent Brawling weapons.

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 December 2015 - 06:00 PM.

[AztecD]

Normal PPC's should work from 90+Mts, give that weird cockpit flicker, AND give heat to the enemy target, i mean its a bolt of man made lightning. it should have adverse effects to enemy mechs.

Pjwned, on 17 December 2015 - 02:17 PM, said:

The solution to that is addressing convergence, there's nothing wrong with the build itself.

Also the original 30 heat level would make this direwolf blow up on the first shoot

[Adamski]

Big Tin Man, on 17 December 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

FWIW, the Mauler and King Crab can also run 2x gauss + 2x PPC. I'd rather see a mechanic that discourages 40+ point PPFLD alphas from 500m+ than nerfing specific weapons on specific chassis.

I want PPC's to be viable. I really do, but apparently I'm the only person that remembers just how bad the Gauss/PPC meta was.

The easiest fix would be to add Gauss rifles to the PPC / ERPPC heat groups. The heat scale takes the hottest weapon fired in the group and applies the ghost heat penalty to it.
So firing 2x Gauss & 2x PPC would cost the 55 heat.
Firing 2x Gauss & 2x ERPPC would cost 82 heat.
Firing 1x Gauss & 2x PPC would cost 31 heat.
Firing 1x Gauss & 2x ERPPC would cost 50 heat.