482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

It's a text tweak in the XML. Hardly difficult at all.

PPC

Buff back to 1500m/s or 1400m/s
Use same exponential curve that Clan LRMs use for min damage range @ 90m.

IS ERPPC

Buff to 2000 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14 or 13.5

Clan ERPPC

Buff to 1500 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14

Requirk all PPC quirks.

too stronk, overall, IMO, don't want to see a return of LR spam. That kind of speed, overall, I think would need heat to balance it.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:19 PM, said:

too stronk, overall, IMO, don't want to see a return of LR spam. That kind of speed, overall, I think would need heat to balance it.

Velocity is the main problem. It's inherently obvious when you don't really consider ERPPCs w/o quirks.

I'd trade heat for velocity or vice versa, but you can't have ERPPCs that are ineffective @ their listed range.

[General Taskeen]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Inner Sphere PPC:
-Bring back the scaling minimum range with one change: scales to a minimum of 5 damage.

Doubt they would do this. Its all about the XML number changes. Why they even have 1 gun in the game with min range is still funny to me. Its cherry-picking considering plenty of other 'tt' weapons have the 'min range' low chance to hit modifier.

If they really wanted to make it unique for the PPC in particular, some utility features would add better flavor (example from my post a long *** time ago in the suggestion graveyard):

Quote

PPC Field Inhibitor Mode Toggle
Suggested key - F
- Right now, in-game, we have "Field Inhibitor" automatically turned On, with no way to disable it
- Give the PPC its enhanced functionality as it should have a Field Inhibitor, as all PPC's do, which could be on/off in canon
- In TT, it allowed for a player to turn this off, whereby all min-range modifiers were removed to allow the weapon to normally roll and fire in minrange, which came with potential drawbacks either damaging the weapon itself (edit - exploded) or the 'Mech from feedback.
- To turn off an individual PPC's Inhibitor the weapon should be highlighted in the weapon group first
(The equivalent of an alpha "oh ****" no chance survive, make your time ppc button)

1. On (Default) - [EDIT] Reduced Damage (Halved for example)
2. Off - Full Damage in Min Range
* 50-90m/25% Chance to Damage the PPC and/or random section on the Mech with 2 Points of Damage
* 0-49m/50-75% Chance to Damage PPC and/or random section on the Mech with 3 Points of Damage

Example: If it fired at 50-90 with it off, 25% chance to do 2 Damage to a PPC which has 10 hitpoints. In this case, if they are unlucky

Alternate for the "Off" Idea: Remove the "chances" and do straight up damage to the PPC or a random section of the Mech for 2 or 3 Damage within those ranges if it fires any time in those ranges

Additionally they could have simply added to all PPCs the unique feature from MW3/4 for when a PPC hits it caused your UI to fizzle out briefly, which made aiming tougher requiring the player to aim by feel/sight. MW4 went further and made taking a PPC hit, slightly add heat to your Mech. Adding this kind of stuff gives weapons unique utility without messing with weapon velocities and such. The Clan ER PPC could simply be made to do more direct damage with a reduced cycle time (it was 8 seconds in MW4 and required lot's of skill and timing with that cooldown).

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Velocity is the main problem. It's inherently obvious when you don't really consider ERPPCs w/o quirks.

I'd trade heat for velocity or vice versa, but you can't have ERPPCs that are ineffective @ their listed range.

I'm probably more aware of the limitations than most, since I still use PPCs, ERPPCs and ACs more than most users, on both quirked and unquirked chassis. My current ride is an HBK-IIC with dual ERPPC in the RT. No quirks. 1400-1500 m/s allows you to reliably hit at range, without the near authit capability of a Gauss Rifle. It also leaves room for minor quirks for the specifically PPC oriented mechs to be "just a little better" than.

General Taskeen, on 17 December 2015 - 12:28 PM, said:

Doubt they would do this. Its all about the XML number changes. Why they even have 1 gun in the game with min range is still funny to me. Its cherry-picking considering plenty of other 'tt' weapons have the 'min range' low chance to hit modifier.

If they really wanted to make it unique for the PPC in particular, some utility features would add better flavor (example from my post a long *** time ago in the suggestion graveyard):

[b][/font]

Additionally they could have simply added to all PPCs the unique feature from MW3/4 for when a PPC hits it caused your UI to fizzle out briefly, which made aiming tougher requiring the player to aim by feel/sight. MW4 went further and made taking a PPC hit, slightly add heat to your Mech. Adding this kind of stuff gives weapons unique utility without messing with weapon velocities and such. The Clan ER PPC could simply be made to do more direct damage with a reduced cycle time (it was 8 seconds in MW4 and required lot's of skill and timing with that cooldown).

Because it helps to make the much lower heat balanced, and because they already still use scaling code on clan LRMS.

I tend to focus on what we already have in game, instead of adding extras because there is a more realistic chance of seeing it happen that way.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 December 2015 - 12:30 PM.

[0bsidion]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

full 15 i think is too much without serious tradeoffs, which is why I gave a lower base damage. Especially if you want to boost speed and lower heat, too. In a F2P FPS, C-ERPPC cannot be better than the IS one, and especially as long as it has a minimum range the old "but IS has normal PPC option" saw really is poor reasoning.

That's why Parian and I are using an "equal but different" approach. Especially considering how fast the scale tips on a long range PP-FLD weapon.

I guess you missed the part where I said keep the cERPPC heat the same After all, Clans took a recent hit to their heat cap, plus we have Gauss on both sides delivering 15 damage for only 1 heat.

I think 15 heat for 15 damage would still make lasers look a bit more palatable, because they're still more efficient, and cERPPCs are still Boolean all or nothing weapons, where if you miss you just spiked your heat meter by 15 points for no gain.

Anyway, just my opinion obviously.

[Aresye]

Not sure how I feel about leaving the CERPPC speed the same, because right now it's already slow enough you can literally twist to dodge it, or (in the case of very long range) even MOVE to dodge it.

IIRC correctly, the ADR and WHK are the only ones that have any sort of CERPPC velocity quirks, and (because they're Clan) they're relatively minor and almost insignificant in the long run. The heat and slow projectile speed both make it not worth taking.

On the other side, the BJ-3 has some of the BEST ERPPC quirks on a nimble, JJ equipped chassis. The thing is practically BUILT to be an ERPPC poptart. Guess what works better though? Completely ignoring ERPPCs and taking LPLs instead.

I've pretty much stopped playing Clan mechs entirely. If I feel I might run into tough competition and will need to carry, I run my BJ-3 with 3 LPL, or my Jester with 2 LPL + 4 ML. Both have structure quirks, jump jets, a fast XL, and good hitboxes that make taking the XL relatively safe. I look at TBRs and EBJs on the field and think, "Easy prey." I worry more about LPL Banshees, Black Knights, BJs, and the Atlas more than any Clan mech (including the DWF).

Most importantly however, I prefer to run IS mechs now simply because Clan mechs are NOT fun to play, at all. The stupidly long laser durations are boring and require too much face time. The constantly red-lining on heat and risking shutdown is annoying. The slow CERPPCs that miss while getting pegged by 40% velocity quirked IS ERPPCs mechs is infuriating. And all because what? Because the Clan version does a few extra points of damage, most of it spread?

I didn't buy the IIC pack, and I didn't buy it because Clan weapons are in such a boring, piss poor state. All the IICs running around and I have yet to fear any one of them. In fact I regularly face tank them without fear because I can do that with x2 structure quirks. My BJ-3 chews through everything.

[kapusta11]

PPC

Projectile speed: 1500
Heat: 10
CD: 4 sec
GH cap: 3

ERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 3

cERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 2
Damage: 12-13 FLD

Edited by kapusta11, 17 December 2015 - 12:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

0bsidion, on 17 December 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

I guess you missed the part where I said keep the cERPPC heat the same After all, Clans took a recent hit to their heat cap, plus we have Gauss on both sides delivering 15 damage for only 1 heat.

I think 15 heat for 15 damage would still make lasers look a bit more palatable, because they're still more efficient, and cERPPCs are still Boolean all or nothing weapons, where if you miss you just spiked your heat meter by 15 points for no gain.

Anyway, just my opinion obviously.

5 extra damage for 1 extra heat, while lighter, smaller? That is what I am saying. Compared to 10 dmg for 14 heat (or even 13..but 13 was tried before and the consequences were ugly).

Still feels off balanced, to me.

[Revis Volek]

They need a speed boost, its not easy or even fun to use them when they go the speed of a slow pitch.

They need less heat, and if in turn they become too powerful they need a mechanic much like the Gauss has where we can only fire two at a time to prevent instagibbs.

They also need hit reg fixes or to shrink the size of the projectile down so that it can actually go over hills and the like, around corners and they also need to fix the issue where they pass right through enemies.

Some of that might be more related to map or terrain hit box issues but it hurts PPC the most.

[Pariah Devalis]

Obsidion: I'd love it if clan ERPPC were 15, but the odds of that happening are next to zilch. Plus, I'm always a proponent of small changes at a time. If 12 or 13 still feels insufficient it could always get increased later.

[Bishop Steiner]

kapusta11, on 17 December 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

PPC

Projectile speed: 1500
Heat: 10
CD: 4 sec
GH cap: 3

ERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 3

cERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 2
Damage: 12 FLD

longer cooldown, with higher velocity is just going to encourage more peek sniping. While actually net making them run cooler in the process.

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

They need a speed boost, its not easy or even fun to use them when they go the speed of a slow pitch.

They need less heat, and if in turn they become too powerful they need a mechanic much like the Gauss has where we can only fire two at a time to prevent instagibbs.

They also need hit reg fixes or to shrink the size of the projectile down so that it can actually go over hills and the like, around corners and they also need to fix the issue where they pass right through enemies.

Some of that might be more related to map or terrain hit box issues but it hurts PPC the most.

yeah...so kinda the points addressed in the OP?

[Revis Volek]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 December 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Yeah, an AWS wouldn't be the meta if it all of a sudden had super accurate PPCs. The 9M would be a nice alternative to the BLR-1S on boreal though, for a little variety.

I would be more worried about the BJ-3. And by worried I mean I would be worried people would whine about it.

If the BJ's didnt tank like Assaults I dont think anyone would mind....

Id love to have a Blackjack that still packed a punch but last night i put 3x 6 Sm Pulse laser alphas into the back of an already crit BJ and he never turned around...because he knew i couldnt kill him before he killed the DWF in front of him and then turned to fire on me.

[Mcgral18]

kapusta11, on 17 December 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

PPC

Projectile speed: 1500
Heat: 10
CD: 4 sec
GH cap: 3

ERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 3

cERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 2
Damage: 12-13 FLD

Not 2KM/s as it would sync too well with the Gauss.

+-200M/s at least. isERPPC faster, cERPPC slower (because more damage).
Gauss change has also taught me 6 seconds is a touch too long. 5.5s is the highest I would go, but that would be a 2500M/s isERPPC.

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 December 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[Deathlike]

Aresye Kerensky, on 17 December 2015 - 12:31 PM, said:

Not sure how I feel about leaving the CERPPC speed the same, because right now it's already slow enough you can literally twist to dodge it, or (in the case of very long range) even MOVE to dodge it.

IIRC correctly, the ADR and WHK are the only ones that have any sort of CERPPC velocity quirks, and (because they're Clan) they're relatively minor and almost insignificant in the long run. The heat and slow projectile speed both make it not worth taking.

On the other side, the BJ-3 has some of the BEST ERPPC quirks on a nimble, JJ equipped chassis. The thing is practically BUILT to be an ERPPC poptart. Guess what works better though? Completely ignoring ERPPCs and taking LPLs instead.

I've pretty much stopped playing Clan mechs entirely. If I feel I might run into tough competition and will need to carry, I run my BJ-3 with 3 LPL, or my Jester with 2 LPL + 4 ML. Both have structure quirks, jump jets, a fast XL, and good hitboxes that make taking the XL relatively safe. I look at TBRs and EBJs on the field and think, "Easy prey." I worry more about LPL Banshees, Black Knights, BJs, and the Atlas more than any Clan mech (including the DWF).

Most importantly however, I prefer to run IS mechs now simply because Clan mechs are NOT fun to play, at all. The stupidly long laser durations are boring and require too much face time. The constantly red-lining on heat and risking shutdown is annoying. The slow CERPPCs that miss while getting pegged by 40% velocity quirked IS ERPPCs mechs is infuriating. And all because what? Because the Clan version does a few extra points of damage, most of it spread?

I didn't buy the IIC pack, and I didn't buy it because Clan weapons are in such a boring, piss poor state. All the IICs running around and I have yet to fear any one of them. In fact I regularly face tank them without fear because I can do that with x2 structure quirks. My BJ-3 chews through everything.

There's the Summoner's PPC arm and the Ice Ferret-Prime's PPC arm that has PPC quirks (which is laughable because it's just 1 arm and not a pair).

BJ-3s are hilarious though, and the PPC buffs apply to the ERPPC (10.5 heat ERPPCs to go with 7 heat PPCs).

Thank our balance overlord.

[Roughneck45]

Im not sure I'd touch the velocity on any of them for fear of syncing them up too well with AC5's again.

PPC- reduce heat by one
ER PPC- reduce heat by one and slight increase to velocity
Clan ER PPC- lessen the splash (I believe its 10 then 2.5 to adjacent sections now? maybe 12 and 1.5 would be enough of a buff)

May not be enough, but baby steps are better than nothing.

Edited by Roughneck45, 17 December 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[Navid A1]

I suggest shooting these towards Russ.

Get his attention to this Bishop!

[Revis Volek]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

yeah...so kinda the points addressed in the OP?

I guess, You put "THOUGHTS" those are my thoughts.


But I DONT think the Clan ERPPC should do more DMG then the IS ERPPC, I dont think the scaling needs to be removed from the norm IS PPC and without a Velocity boost to the Clan ERPPC i dont think many people will use them or even care for the changes. Even on mechs with Heat Gen quirks the C ERPPC is still not good due to the abysmally slow speed.


The heat is manageable, the speed and hit reg issues are not.

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

If the BJ's didnt tank like Assaults I dont think anyone would mind....

Id love to have a Blackjack that still packed a punch but last night i put 3x 6 Sm Pulse laser alphas into the back of an already crit BJ and he never turned around...because he knew i couldnt kill him before he killed the DWF in front of him and then turned to fire on me.

would prefer BJs be glass cannons like the IIC mechs, personally. Because they can all pack a punch, but agree are too tough for packing that punch.

[Revis Volek]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

There's the Summoner's PPC arm and the Ice Ferret-Prime's PPC arm that has PPC quirks (which is laughable because it's just 1 arm and not a pair).

BJ-3s are hilarious though, and the PPC buffs apply to the ERPPC (10.5 heat ERPPCs to go with 7 heat PPCs).

Thank our balance overlord.

SMN can put TWO ERPPCS on ONE ARM though....

[Bishop Steiner]

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

I guess, You put "THOUGHTS" those are my thoughts.


But I DONT think the Clan ERPPC should do more DMG then the IS ERPPC, I dont think the scaling needs to be removed from the norm IS PPC and without a Velocity boost to the Clan ERPPC i dont think many people will use them or even care for the changes. Even on mechs with Heat Gen quirks the C ERPPC is still not good due to the abysmally slow speed.


The heat is manageable, the speed and hit reg issues are not.

relax tiger! just pulling your tail!

DarthRevis, on 17 December 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

SMN can put TWO ERPPCS on ONE ARM though....

not if it wants the PPC buffs. you can get a 4% heat generation with the Charlie arm, but that's it. On 2 ERPPCs, on a redheaded stepchild like a summoner? Eh.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 December 2015 - 12:44 PM.