482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Adamski, on 17 December 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

The easiest fix would be to add Gauss rifles to the PPC / ERPPC heat groups. The heat scale takes the hottest weapon fired in the group and applies the ghost heat penalty to it.
So firing 2x Gauss & 2x PPC would cost the 55 heat.
Firing 2x Gauss & 2x ERPPC would cost 82 heat.
Firing 1x Gauss & 2x PPC would cost 31 heat.
Firing 1x Gauss & 2x ERPPC would cost 50 heat.

one fix, that would have the Lore crowd up in arms, but fix a lot of things and allow the removal of chargeup.... would be to make Gauss work like they really do which actually generates a buttload of heat (that huge plasma cloud is every bit as heat generating as the burning propellant from an AC round) and take a buttload of power, thus not being able to sync with anything but normal ACs and MGs and Missiles. Anything requiring power to fire like lasers and PPCs would have to be staggered (which would be lore correct) and thus, not a sync'd alpha.

But again, Gauss desync (and honestly, I'd be OK with ERPPCs having it, too) and Gauss generating heat would make people cry too much....because end of the day? As much as people cry when they get hit by the big alpha? Most people cry even more at the thought of not being able to deliver it.

[Lyoto Machida]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Yeah, toward the bottom of my wall of text was a comment about that. I want the weapons to be viable on their own, not because of Quirks, and as such, quirks would need a rework. Probably should highlight that.

But really, ho w hard is it to switch the 50% velocity boost to 20% in an HTML?

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 12:14 PM, said:

It's a text tweak in the XML. Hardly difficult at all.

PPC

Buff back to 1500m/s or 1400m/s
Use same exponential curve that Clan LRMs use for min damage range @ 90m.

IS ERPPC

Buff to 2000 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14 or 13.5

Clan ERPPC

Buff to 1500 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14

Requirk all PPC quirks.

Takes 4+ hours for XML changes, if I recall someone from PGI correctly. Serious...I think McGral made a post on it and highlighted a dev's response (via email?).

[Khobai]

There are more ways to balance weapons than numerical stats. They can be given utility abilities as well.

PPCs should fry electronics. That should be their role.

When you get hit by a PPC it should temporarily knock out your senors, detailed targeting, shut off your ECM, etc...

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

There are more ways to balance weapons than numerical stats. They can be given utility abilities as well.

PPCs should fry electronics. That should be their role.

When you get hit by a PPC it should temporarily knock out your senors, detailed targeting, shut off your ECM, etc...

yeah...again, with PGI we get stuff like the current ECM fuzz. Whoopy.

Thing with numerical values? They are easy, and they work. PGI likes easy.

[Pariah Devalis]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

There are more ways to balance weapons than numerical stats. They can be given utility abilities as well.

PPCs should fry electronics. That should be their role.

When you get hit by a PPC it should temporarily knock out your senors, detailed targeting, shut off your ECM, etc...

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

yeah...again, with PGI we get stuff like the current ECM fuzz. Whoopy.

Thing with numerical values? They are easy, and they work. PGI likes easy.

As someone on Google + said: It's a cost vs reward breakdown. If it costs more to make something new, it's less likely to be done than recycling something old or tweaking a few values.

[Christof Romulus]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

if it takes 1.8 seconds to accelerate to 5000m/s at 810 meter range, not seeing how that makes them easier to hit at range with. Also mechs like the Warhammer, featuring dual PPCs were considered close combat machines, even with the minimum range on PPCs.


Lastly, while an interesting idea, probably take a lot more effort to code, and thus less likely to actually be implemented. Also, 1800 m/s PPCs, IMO are too fast, on average. Yeah, easier to hit with, but we've already had the skies full of lightning before... and IMO it was a less fun than even the current laservomit is.

I think 50% is the same speed boost that is on the GRF-1N - I'm not at home so I can't look - but whatever perk is on the GRF-1N should be sufficient.

It would take 1.8 seconds to reach 5000 m/s (forget the range part, that was me being stupid), but the distance traveled at that point would be infinite as far as MWO is concerned (4681 meters), as no map is currently large enough to accept that speed. The projectile would be accelerating at 2666 m/s^2.

Sample times and distances:
0.2 seconds 93.5m
0.4 seconds 293m -> Farther than the optimal distance of the IS ML
0.6 seconds 600m -> Farther than the optimal distance of IS LL, and Clan ERML
0.8 seconds 1013m -> Farther than the optimal distance of the Gauss Rifle, IS Er LL, Clan ERLL, and LRM base range
1 second 1533m -> Shortly before the maximum range of the weapon
1.8 seconds 4681m -> Farther than edge to edge of the largest map in MWO (and well beyond the range of the weapon).

The idea is to give the ERPPC a uniform feeling for sniping targets at nearly any distance - which would require skill to get used to. Also it would allow the ERPPC the chance to actually hit a target that is at its maximum range.

[Khobai]

Quote

As someone on Google + said: It's a cost vs reward breakdown. If it costs more to make something new, it's less likely to be done than recycling something old or tweaking a few values.

Yes but if numerical stats is all you use to balance weapons there will ALWAYS be a best weapon.

That is not how you properly balance weapons. In order to properly balance weapons you need to give each weapon a unique role that no other weapon can do. And then its not entirely clear cut which weapon is the best.

[Mcgral18]

Lyoto Machida, on 17 December 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Takes 4+ hours for XML changes, if I recall someone from PGI correctly. Serious...I think McGral made a post on it and highlighted a dev's response (via email?).

I think it was Reddit


Essentially compiling time, which has to be done regardless on a Patch Day, as I understood it.
Maybe not. I don't know, I don't work there.

[Grimlox]

Works for me. I like the idea of the velocity being lower on the clan ERPPC but the dmg being higher. IS PPC's may need to be 1300m/s just to make them slightly less attractive and distinguish their usefulness from the ERPPC at long range. I would almost always choose the proposed IS PPC over the IS ERPPC as the range difference isn't that big a deal to save 4 heat and having scaling min dmg too.

[Nightmare1]

I would recommend the following:

Decrease heat.

Increase Ghost Heat limit by one for each of the PPC types.

Increase their projectile speed slightly.

[Deathlike]

Lyoto Machida, on 17 December 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Takes 4+ hours for XML changes, if I recall someone from PGI correctly. Serious...I think McGral made a post on it and highlighted a dev's response (via email?).

4 hours is madness.

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 04:25 PM, said:

I think it was Reddit


Essentially compiling time, which has to be done regardless on a Patch Day, as I understood it.
Maybe not. I don't know, I don't work there.

I guess, Paul has Tetris to fall back upon while waiting...

[OznerpaG]

only allow 2 PPCs to fire at a time, increase PPC velocity significantly, increase cooldown to compensate

20 pinpoint isn't a big deal, you can't sync them with Gauss anymore anyways, and if they are much faster than AC5s they can't sync with them well either

i do miss the poptart days though - never pop-tarted in my life, but poptarts never bothered me either and it should be a legit tactic

Edited by JagdFlanker, 17 December 2015 - 04:59 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

JagdFlanker, on 17 December 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

only allow 2 PPCs to fire at a time, increase PPC velocity significantly, increase cooldown to compensate

20 pinpoint isn't a big deal, you can't sync them with Gauss anymore anyways, and if they are much faster than AC5s they can't sync with them well either

i do miss the poptart days though - never pop-tarted in my life, but poptarts never bothered me either and it should be a legit tactic

it actually still is a legit tactic, just better done by Medium now, which makes more sense, anyhow. But some like the Summoner can still do OK at it. My NovaTart works great, as does my VindiTart.... but the new champ is almost certainly the HBK-IIC-A-TART. Those PPCs placement, that speed and JJs? NICE.

Grimlox, on 17 December 2015 - 04:40 PM, said:

Works for me. I like the idea of the velocity being lower on the clan ERPPC but the dmg being higher. IS PPC's may need to be 1300m/s just to make them slightly less attractive and distinguish their usefulness from the ERPPC at long range. I would almost always choose the proposed IS PPC over the IS ERPPC as the range difference isn't that big a deal to save 4 heat and having scaling min dmg too.

could be, I'm sure some numbers would need at least mild tweaks. And reducing the minimum range issue as I suggested might make them a little too close if the vels are only 100 m/s off. Good thought.

[Matthew Ace]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

one fix, that would have the Lore crowd up in arms, but fix a lot of things and allow the removal of chargeup.... would be to make Gauss work like they really do which actually generates a buttload of heat (that huge plasma cloud is every bit as heat generating as the burning propellant from an AC round) and take a buttload of power, thus not being able to sync with anything but normal ACs and MGs and Missiles. Anything requiring power to fire like lasers and PPCs would have to be staggered (which would be lore correct) and thus, not a sync'd alpha.

http://www.skepticin...ns-vs-coilguns/

https://sg.answers.y...20124617AATOYqo

https://sg.answers.y...08002634AAAHsYJ

Kinda mistaking Gauss Rifles/Coilguns for Railguns; Railguns produces buttload of heat due to not only that plasma cloud, but also the friction from propelling the round with a pair of Rails and being a less efficient design with respect to wear and tear as well as heat-wise.

With a Gauss Rifle / Coilgun, however, the round does not have to necessarily have contact with the barrel when triggered. No plasma cloud produced so heat from that is moot.

Edited by Matthew Ace, 17 December 2015 - 05:26 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Matthew Ace, on 17 December 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

http://www.skepticin...ns-vs-coilguns/

https://sg.answers.y...20124617AATOYqo

https://sg.answers.y...08002634AAAHsYJ

Kinda mistaking Gauss Rifles/Coilguns for Railguns; Railguns produces buttload of heat due to not only that plasma cloud, but also the friction from propelling the round with a pair of Rails and being a less efficient design with respect to wear and tear as well as heat-wise.

coil gun is still going to produce the plasma cloud if speeds are similar? Also, anytime you discharge that large an amount of electricity, you will generate waste heat. There is a MASSIVE amount of current being dumped into the coils. One can't do that and not generate heat.


Also, just going by fluff (aka to be a derp, lol), the YLW mounted a "Von Ryan Railgun".

[Lockon StratosII]

How about we drop damage (60-70%, also remove splash), drop heat (60-70%), drop cooldown (60-70%) and increase velocity (~2000m/s). Blasphemy, right?!

[Matthew Ace]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

coil gun is still going to produce the plasma cloud if speeds are similar? Also, anytime you discharge that large an amount of electricity, you will generate waste heat. There is a MASSIVE amount of current being dumped into the coils. One can't do that and not generate heat.


Also, just going by fluff (aka to be a derp, lol), the YLW mounted a "Von Ryan Railgun".

If we're going by fluff, it would be reasonable for that to apply to the Wang.

However, shouldn't electricity not be applied to the round with a Gauss Rifle, only the coils/solenoids (which I imagine would also be insulated to prevent short-circuiting) unlike with Railguns? The plasma cloud is more from direct electrical contact of the conductor with the round, isn't it?

Can't deny about the heat from the amount of energy though. This would be a good read.

https://en.m.wikiped...i/Joule_heating

Basically it still boils down to Gausses generating less waste heat than Railguns (only a question remains - how much less?).

Edited by Matthew Ace, 17 December 2015 - 05:53 PM.

[A Thermonuclear Warhead]

Khobai, on 17 December 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

There are more ways to balance weapons than numerical stats. They can be given utility abilities as well.

PPCs should fry electronics. That should be their role.

When you get hit by a PPC it should temporarily knock out your senors, detailed targeting, shut off your ECM, etc...

Now there's an idea. Lots of sensitive electronic stuff on every mech. Especially energy weapons with their huge capacitors.

How about we keep the stats as they stand. But on top of the ECM jamming that already happens, throw in additional effects:

20% chance per PPC to jam communications (Low Signal, ala ECM) to the target enemy for 4 seconds. Prevents affected targets from using missile locks due to jammed radar and comms systems.
5% chance per PPC bolt per enemy energy weapon to cause a 'weapon jam' for 2 seconds (cannot fire energy weapons if computers are fried or needs a hard reset to get them back online)

[Bishop Steiner]

Matthew Ace, on 17 December 2015 - 05:45 PM, said:

If we're going by fluff, it would be reasonable for that to apply to the Wang.

However, shouldn't electricity not be applied to the round with a Gauss Rifle, only the coils/solenoids (which I imagine would also be insulated to prevent short-circuiting) unlike with Railguns? The plasma cloud is more from direct electrical contact of the conductor with the round, isn't it?

Can't deny about the heat from the amount of energy though. This would be a good read.

https://en.m.wikiped...i/Joule_heating

Basically it still boils down to Gausses generating less waste heat than Railguns (only a question remains - how much less?).

not entirely sure on the plasma cloud, thought it was mostly the air friction. No denying there are advantages to coilguns over railguns, though seems like railguns achieve velocity easier in practice? Otherwise the navy's pursuit of them make little sense.

Anyhow, back to the point... the Gauss weighs a whopping 1 ton more than an AC20 (and the same for clan versions) but takes up less space (which is funny, since it's should be somewhat the opposite).

But in lore, they do 75% of the damage, have 2.5 times the range, generate 17% of the heat, and have 160% more ammo per ton. Add to it that a Gauss capacitor explosion does the same internal damage as the explosion of one single AC20 round (whereas an ac20 ammo explosion, could range from 20 damage minimum, to 300 damage for a fully loaded Victor's magazine) and really... it's easy to see why Gauss was broke as heck, even in TT.

Now, leave all that the same, but give Gauss the SAME heat (7 pts) as an AC20, and what do you get? You still have a great tradeoff, even in MWO, as you have 4x the range, still lay out 15 dmg PP-FLD. IMO, then you could probably remove the charge up, because they are no longer the all purpose no heat companion weapon for synch firing.

[Arctourus]

they need to have a decent velocity across the board.....a chassis might be optimized for a ppc in such a way that it recycles faster or cools better, but it shouldn't increase the projectile speed. I don't know a good number for it, but I know that they became rather poor when the speed was nerfed about a year back.

Other than that, you can't make them run too cool or recycle too fast or else they will be overpowered. I like speeding them up, maybe scaling the minimum range damage like Bishop suggested, but here's another thought. For the IS versions, maybe decrease their weight by one ton and decrease their slot size to 2 instead of three. The extra slot and one less ton may allow you to fit in one more DHS, making them slightly more attractive but not necessarily more powerful.