482 replies to this topic

[Xhaleon]

Reading through the thread, I'm seeing that I missed one of the most important core concerns of increasing velocity, that is, the potential for it to sync up with other ballistic weapons. The dangers are constantly hammered home and yet as Ultimatum pointed out a few pages back, there is nothing wrong with some weapon sync-ups if it requires skill to make full use of.

Hm. Maybe instead of using ghost heat, take the bolder approach of adding a new script into the game; firing PPCs immediately terminates the charge on a Gauss Rifle without firing, while conversely firing the GR will impose a cooldown timer on all PPCs (or all energy weapons!?) equivalent to its charge time or shorter. Might want to scale back the cooldown nerfs on the GR in that case.

Also have to consider that some of the younger meta builds such as 2xGR 2xPPC is associated with Clan mechs, so the stat spread that I originally posted (which is extremely similar to others, surprisingly) would avoid having the CERPPC match the velocity of the CGR anyhow, even less so if there are no associated quirks given to the mechs that could run these burst damage builds.

Edited by Xhaleon, 19 December 2015 - 09:40 PM.

[DerMaulwurf]

chewie, on 19 December 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

I've been trying to work out, just why, PPC projectile speeds should be different.

An ERPPC for IS is just a longer range, same damage, but also hotter in Tabletop, but isnt affected by minimum range.

But why have a different projectile speed?

It serves no purpose other then to give a reason to use something less or more based on those speeds rather than heat or damage.

Personally, I'd like to see the IS ERPPC mirror the standard PPC but with the extra heat and no minimum range penalty.

But as far as the speed, no, should be the same, its not like is a ballistic weapon of different bore/damage/fire rates.

PPC projectile speeds should be different, because your range is restricted by it. A weapon could have an effective range of 10km and it would still be useless at long range if its projectiles don't have the necessary speed. If the PPC is to be a credible extreme range weapon it simply needs the speed.

I also think that the min-range should simply go: No self-damage and no ramp. Introducing it was a panicky step during the first PPC meta. It didn't end the 4PPC stalker (nerfing PPC heat by more than 40% did). The pop-tart meta simply ignored it. The PPC has too little damage per weight and damage per height to be good at brawling anyway. And finally: TT min-ranges never worked like this.

[Quaamik]

The PPC was not intended to be a "extreme range" weapon. In any case, from cannon extreen range in BattleTech was 900 - 1000 meters.

At its current velocity, it's easy to hit with at medium ranges (300 - 500m) and requires ony a little skill to achieve consistantly hits at long range >500 - 800 m). Bump up the velocity like some are calling for and you are asking for it to be pushed into a long range sniper role. Easy, point & click, 10 points of pinpoint damage out to 810m, and pinpoint gradually reducing damage out beyond that. That will scream "OP" without serious nerfs beyond what it has.

Do you realistically think they are going to set up ER-PPCs as an unlimited ammo version of the gauss cannon, with less weight and space required, and no mechanic to prevent it from becoming hide & go poke sniper wars?

[DerMaulwurf]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 05:42 AM, said:

The PPC was not intended to be a "extreme range" weapon. In any case, from cannon extreen range in BattleTech was 900 - 1000 meters.

At its current velocity, it's easy to hit with at medium ranges (300 - 500m) and requires ony a little skill to achieve consistantly hits at long range >500 - 800 m). Bump up the velocity like some are calling for and you are asking for it to be pushed into a long range sniper role. Easy, point & click, 10 points of pinpoint damage out to 810m, and pinpoint gradually reducing damage out beyond that. That will scream "OP" without serious nerfs beyond what it has.

Do you realistically think they are going to set up ER-PPCs as an unlimited ammo version of the gauss cannon, with less weight and space required, and no mechanic to prevent it from becoming hide & go poke sniper wars?

Actually I do. The ER-PPC still weighs 7tons and does 15 heat for 10 damage. 2ER-PPCs are already 14 tons and beyond what the truedubs can handle in terms of heat. The ER-PPC is the least heat efficient weapon in this game, it's extremely difficult to break it. c-ERPPCs only got problematic paired with the Gauss, which already got its nerf.

Besides that there are already mechs with 50% speed quirks and they are still rare. Since JJs were nerfed so hard, even the poptart danger seems remote.

Edited by DerMaulwurf, 20 December 2015 - 06:20 AM.

[Quaamik]

DerMaulwurf, on 20 December 2015 - 06:20 AM, said:

Actually I do...

This is why we will be unlikely to get decent balance. Because people want to tweak weapons to be incredible in the notch they like them in, and use all other applications for the nerfs that supposedly "balance" it.

How does leaving the damage and heat the same, but bumping the velocity counter laser barf? How does it make a ERPPC or CERPPC a viable alternative to a LPLor ERLL? It doesn't, UNLESS you are building an ultra long range sniper.

[DerMaulwurf]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

This is why we will be unlikely to get decent balance. Because people want to tweak weapons to be incredible in the notch they like them in, and use all other applications for the nerfs that supposedly "balance" it.

How does leaving the damage and heat the same, but bumping the velocity counter laser barf? How does it make a ERPPC or CERPPC a viable alternative to a LPLor ERLL? It doesn't, UNLESS you are building an ultra long range sniper.

Yes, do more sweeping changes it's going to be fantastic for this game. Just like all the previous times.

Why can't we just once try a more incremental approach? Do a small change and then see if that was enough. If yes, stop and if not do another one.

The balance isn't as it is, because PGI hasn't done enough sweeping changes. I am fed up with weapons whiplashing between UP and OP.

But you changed your tack from
"That will scream "OP" without serious nerfs beyond what it has."
to
"it'll have no effect on laser vomit"
so quickly you should get into politics.

[Pariah Devalis]

DerMaulwurf, on 20 December 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

Yes, do more sweeping changes it's going to be fantastic for this game. Just like all the previous times.

Why can't we just once try a more incremental approach? Do a small change and then see if that was enough. If yes, stop and if not do another one.

The balance isn't as it is, because PGI hasn't done enough sweeping changes. I am fed up with weapons whiplashing between UP and OP.

But you changed your tack from
"That will scream "OP" without serious nerfs beyond what it has."
to
"it'll have no effect on laser vomit"
so quickly you should get into politics.

I am a fan of small changes. I really, really am. Do you know what else I am a fan of?

Fixing problems directly instead of beating around the bush over, and over, and over again.

Again, if we all seem to agree the current heat to damage is off on ERPPC of both techs, there are only two things here that need be altered - either HEAT or DAMAGE - and they can be done independent of one another to give each type of ERPPC its own feel. Given the theme that already exists in the tech, it makes sense to make the IS ERPPC colder while making the Clan ERPPC hit harder.

Given people don't seem to have a hell of a lot of trouble shooting AC5s, which travel about as fast as ERPPC, I highly, highly, highly doubt the speed of the weapon is the real factor holding it back, especially given we all dislike the aforementioned heat to damage ratio. Yet speed is the one thing that has seen the single most amount of tweaking, with heat being the second least (and when it was, it was changed by 2, not 1, heat), and damage? Damage was never adjusted.

With standard PPCs, would we all agree that it could use scaling damage (to a minimum) under 90 meters so it isn't totally worthless at point blank? Just highly inefficient in a gun to face scenario? If so, at least one third of the family is largely resolved.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 December 2015 - 07:36 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Well...we were doing a nice job of keeping things on a positive note.....

[Quaamik]

DerMaulwurf, on 20 December 2015 - 07:27 AM, said:

Yes, do more sweeping changes it's going to be fantastic for this game. Just like all the previous times.

Why can't we just once try a more incremental approach? Do a small change and then see if that was enough. If yes, stop and if not do another one.

The balance isn't as it is, because PGI hasn't done enough sweeping changes. I am fed up with weapons whiplashing between UP and OP.

But you changed your tack from
"That will scream "OP" without serious nerfs beyond what it has."
to
"it'll have no effect on laser vomit"
so quickly you should get into politics.

I said both because they are related to two different things.

1) Increasing ER-PPC / CERPPC velocity to the 1800 - 2000 mps range that some have suggested here will make it THE dominant sniper weapon of the game. Add in the fact it has no limit on ammo, and no "charge mechanic" and Gauss will become irrelevant. The heat will not matter because a sniper build doesn't need to fire repeatedly till its at redline. A mech with high mounted ERPPCs will be able to peek, fire (and hit) and duck much better than a mech with high mounted Gauss or ERLLs, especially at ranges of 750 meters plus. So AS AN INDIVIDUAL WEAPON the ERPPC / CERPPC will have no real downside that affect its ability in the sniper role, as opposed to ERLLs (burn time, lack of pinpoint damage) or Gauss (charge mechanic, ammo dependency). The increase velocity will likely result in ERPPCs / CERPPCs increasingly showing up on light ECM mechs, that have the jump jets to pop tart, the speed to get away, the the ECM coverage to stay hidden, and can't pack enough lasers for effective Laser Vomit. A few mediums and heavies may switch to "sniper" builds with PPCs either because they have trouble mounting enough lasers for good Laser Vomit or they have extremely good "high mount" energy hard points. Shadow cats, Catapults (J and K2), and the Timber Wolf A come to mind.

2) Increasing the velocity will not fix the repeated firing that the high heat limits. The sniper build will not become the go to meta, because (among other things) the changes to jump jets prevent the heavy pop tarts of the past. And since the PPC family uses the same hard points as Lasers, the choice will be to build a dedicated sniper with ERPPCs or a Laser Vomit build. Most will choose the Laser Vomit, because the sniper build itself is nerfed by changes to jump jets and the way the maps and map choices are set up. Laser Vomit is easier to hit with and a prefered current meta. Out of 24 people for a match, more than half will consistently vote for maps that minimize a snipers abilities ESPECIALLY if they feel a sniper build has an advantage that they can't counter. Most heavy, assault and medium mechs will stick with Laser Vomit. The "Sniper" mechs that do show will cause a lot of complaints as thy stand off out of range and pick apart targets. They will lose however, as there wont be enough to force a win and people who run them primarily will gradually see their standing drop.

[Quaamik]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 07:34 AM, said:

I am a fan of small changes. I really, really am. Do you know what else I am a fan of?

Fixing problems directly instead of beating around the bush over, and over, and over again.

Again, if we all seem to agree the current heat to damage is off on ERPPC of both techs, there are only two things here that need be altered - either HEAT or DAMAGE - and they can be done independent of one another to give each type of ERPPC its own feel. Given the theme that already exists in the tech, it makes sense to make the IS ERPPC colder while making the Clan ERPPC hit harder.

Given people don't seem to have a hell of a lot of trouble shooting AC5s, which travel about as fast as ERPPC, I highly, highly, highly doubt the speed of the weapon is the real factor holding it back, especially given we all dislike the aforementioned heat to damage ratio. Yet speed is the one thing that has seen the single most amount of tweaking, with heat being the second least (and when it was, it was changed by 2, not 1, heat), and damage? Damage was never adjusted.

With standard PPCs, would we all agree that it could use scaling damage (to a minimum) under 90 meters so it isn't totally worthless at point blank? Just highly inefficient in a gun to face scenario? If so, at least one third of the family is largely resolved.

I agree almost completely. The one thing I disagree on is that I think the "under 90 m" limit on PPCs should be done away with entirely. It is the ONLY direct fire weapon with a minimum range, and its not an excessively long ranged weapon. Only the AC10 / AC20 have shorter ranges on the IS side.

[Pariah Devalis]

As I've said, my hands on with standard PPC is so out of date, in its case I'd listen more than talk. That said, if erppc heat was reduced to 14, and PPC had no minimum range, would that extra range really be worth the extra heat?

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

As I've said, my hands on with standard PPC is so out of date, in its case I'd listen more than talk. That said, if erppc heat was reduced to 14, and PPC had no minimum range, would that extra range really be worth the extra heat?

Nope.

Even with higher speeds, aside from maybe Alpine or Boreal, how many matches do people really fight at those ranges for long, anyhow?

And that's speaking as someone who does is PPCs, a LOT. I got no issue with a scaling range (in TT, the minimum range gave a to hit modifier, it actually still did full damage) as a balancer, just don't think with their weight and height they should be defenseless under 90.

We had scaling before, it was nice, and certainly not what broke PPCs. The lack of heat effects after shutdown, combined with 2000 m/s speed is what made the skies cry lightning.

Add a scaling minimum range, keep them slower, and one has a reason to consider erppcs still.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 December 2015 - 09:56 AM.

[Quaamik]

On the IS ERPPC? No. It would still be 10 damage / 14 heat. Still too far negative.

On the CERPPC quite possibly, with then 15 damage (10+splash) / 14 heat.

If we wanted to go that route, I'd say:
PPC - 10 dmg / 9 heat, no minimum
ERPPC - 12 dm (10 + splash) / 11 heat
CER PPC - 15 dmg (10 + splash) / 14 heat

Note the ERPPC and CERPPC have the same ranges.

[Pariah Devalis]

Was more of a rhetorical question, Bishop. You're right, there would be almost no reason to take erppc if standard PPC had no minimum.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

On the IS ERPPC? No. It would still be 10 damage / 14 heat. Still too far negative.

On the CERPPC quite possibly, with then 15 damage (10+splash) / 14 heat.

If we wanted to go that route, I'd say:
PPC - 10 dmg / 9 heat, no minimum
ERPPC - 12 dm (10 + splash) / 11 heat
CER PPC - 15 dmg (10 + splash) / 14 heat

Note the ERPPC and CERPPC have the same ranges.

Since no mech has the option of swapping between IS-PPC and C-ERPPC, that's a little misleading of a way to approach it.

Hence why the OP approaches them from a very different angle. and 11 heat for 12 damage? Even at current speed, the sky would be nothing but PPCs again.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 December 2015 - 10:00 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I was not aware clan mechs had access to standard PPC.
  
PPC compete only with is ERPPC. Clan ERPPC compete with LPLas. To compete with CLPLas, CERPPC need to deal more damage to the point of impact than they currently do to compensate for the heat. It's ok for them to be hot, since it would be front loaded, but only if the on point of impact damage was worth it.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 December 2015 - 10:03 AM.

[Quaamik]

Alternately, if the pin point 10 is too much a perceived problem:

PPC - 10 dmg (8+splash) / 9 heat, no minimum
ERPPC - 12 dm (8 + splash) / 11 heat
CER PPC - 15 dmg (9 + splash) / 14 heat

[Quaamik]

I'm looking at them as a "family" that should be similar.

Currently the only things that differentiate the ERPPC from the CERPPC is the mechs they can mount on, weight, bulk and damage.

If you want to treat them completely different, then you have to look at other things to try to balance, which makes it more difficult.

IS PPCs are a family no matter what. The ER PPC has to gain something more than range, otherwise its not worth the weigh and heat. And as long as the damage vs heat is negative it will never be truly worth taking.

The C-ERPPC has to compete with the C-ERLL AND the C-LPL. It needs to have a positive damage to heat ratio to be viable, but with its added range doesn't need as much as the C-LPL. I know because I've run a lot of both C-ERPPCs, C-ERLLs and C-LPLs. The C-ERPPC is just a hair below where it needs to be to be competitive.

[SelectiveCape12]

I may be new to the forums, but I'll just throw this idea out there anyway.

Aside from buffing all the usual weapon stats that most people have come to expect in a proper weapon, are we able to give the PPCs a new feature instead? Since PPCs are suppose to have the ability to disrupt electronics and such systems, would it be possible for PPCs to disrupt the use of certain weapons once a Mech is hit with one? If laser boats are something that needs to be discouraged, perhaps a PPC bolt may be allowed to have a slight chance to disable a number of energy weapons, preventing them from firing for a few seconds.

Or PPCs can instead disrupt a Mech's aim for a few seconds, similar to how a Mech's crosshairs would go haywire when using jumpjets or MASC. This could prevent laser boats from focusing all their weapons on one spot for a time. Previous MechWarrior games also featured a disruption of the Mech's HUD as well, which can sometimes prevent players from aiming properly.

Perhaps this kind of new feature would be too overpowered in some respects, but at least it'll retain some of the PPCs original functionalities from its BT designs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 10:01 AM, said:

Alternately, if the pin point 10 is too much a perceived problem:

PPC - 10 dmg (8+splash) / 9 heat, no minimum
ERPPC - 12 dm (8 + splash) / 11 heat
CER PPC - 15 dmg (9 + splash) / 14 heat

alternately, no splash and
PPC - 10 dmg / 9 heat, scaling minimum, 1400 m/s
ERPPC - 10 dm / 14 heat, 1500 m/s
CER PPC - 13 dmg ) / 14 heat, 1250 m/s

and actually have them balanced against each other, fill different roles and be better but not become the meta again?