482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

SelectiveCape12, on 20 December 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

I may be new to the forums, but I'll just throw this idea out there anyway.

Aside from buffing all the usual weapon stats that most people have come to expect in a proper weapon, are we able to give the PPCs a new feature instead? Since PPCs are suppose to have the ability to disrupt electronics and such systems, would it be possible for PPCs to disrupt the use of certain weapons once a Mech is hit with one? If laser boats are something that needs to be discouraged, perhaps a PPC bolt may be allowed to have a slight chance to disable a number of energy weapons, preventing them from firing for a few seconds.

Or PPCs can instead disrupt a Mech's aim for a few seconds, similar to how a Mech's crosshairs would go haywire when using jumpjets or MASC. This could prevent laser boats from focusing all their weapons on one spot for a time. Previous MechWarrior games also featured a disruption of the Mech's HUD as well, which can sometimes prevent players from aiming properly.

Perhaps this kind of new feature would be too overpowered in some respects, but at least it'll retain some of the PPCs original functionalities from its BT designs.

Welcome and so too are your ideas.

I would not mind "peripheral" functionality. Not one bit. The problem is they seldom work out as a balancer. PGI tried that by making PPCs disrupt ECM. To say it was met with an underwhelming response, would be to put it mildly.

Also, new functionality, requires new code. Not a deal breaker, but one has to decide is the investment worth it, which is hard to model.

Hence why the overarching approach to this, Pariah's LB-X thread and a few other balance one's I have posted are to stick to simple but effective balance changes, like changing numerical values in the XML files of the weapons (speed, heat, damage, possibly "footprint") and other mechanics already in game (like using the splash mechanics from C-ERPPCs on LB-X instead cones)

Once we see some basic combat balance, then I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see these things added, and if need be tweak the numbers a bit if felt needed later.

[Pariah Devalis]

What Bishop said. Having said that, disrupting laser systems would be an interesting mechanic. Even if all it did was increase cool down or, alternatively, adding a small amount of heat to the enemy mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 10:30 AM, said:

What Bishop said. Having said that, disrupting laser systems would be an interesting mechanic. Even if all it did was increase cool down or, alternatively, adding a small amount of heat to the enemy mech.

Would be fun to see HUD fizzle and or a momentary cone of fire effect like when a mech is firing while jumping.... but bow would that get the heck abused out of it!

[Quaamik]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

alternately, no splash and
PPC - 10 dmg / 9 heat, scaling minimum, 1400 m/s
ERPPC - 10 dm / 14 heat, 1500 m/s
CER PPC - 13 dmg ) / 14 heat, 1250 m/s

and actually have them balanced against each other, fill different roles and be better but not become the meta again?

The PPC would work well.

The other two would be broken. The ERPPC, with that high a negative dmg / heat ratio would still be crippled. The CERPPC would be more crippled vs CLPL than it is now from a heat standpoint. The pinpoint damage would help, but not enough.

What about:
no splash and
PPC - 10 dmg / 9 heat, scaling to 2 points at minimum, 1100 m/s
ERPPC - 10 dmg / 10 heat, 1100 m/s, add 2 heat to target
CER PPC - 13 dmg / 13 heat, 1100 m/s, add 2 heat to target

[Russhuster]

FIRST FIX THE PPC BUG

C er PPC have the tendancy to fire through the Target doing absolutely no damage esp when fired in Tandem 2 PPC at once
or short after another, so you get the heat but inflict zero damage

Edited by Russhuster, 20 December 2015 - 10:37 AM.

[Quaamik]

Actually, alternate mechanics could be implemented easily, depending on what they were, but like Bishop said they don't usually work well as balancers.

Missile explosions already obscure vision. That code could easily be transplanted to other weapons such as PPCs. Same with the "shake" from missiles and cannons.

Heat added to an opponent mech would work to disrupt laser fire. It would not be dependable though as balance.

[Bishop Steiner]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

The PPC would work well.

The other two would be broken. The ERPPC, with that high a negative dmg / heat ratio would still be crippled. The CERPPC would be more crippled vs CLPL than it is now from a heat standpoint. The pinpoint damage would help, but not enough.

What about:
no splash and
PPC - 10 dmg / 9 heat, scaling to 2 points at minimum, 1100 m/s
ERPPC - 10 dmg / 10 heat, 1100 m/s, add 2 heat to target
CER PPC - 13 dmg / 13 heat, 1100 m/s, add 2 heat to target

I see zero point in havin gthe range that ERPPCs do if it's too slow to hit. And even at 13 heat before, ERPPCs were EVERYWHERE.

[Quaamik]

Note that absent the lightning fast speeds, I don't think ERPPCs at even or positive damage vs heat will rain from the skies. Gohst heat already limited mechs to firing 2. As long as that doesn't change, the worst case you will get are mechs running 2 pair fireing them as pairs (Awesome) or mechs running three and chain firing them. Both can be solved by increasing the time between firings to avoid ghost heat.

Currently the C-ERPPC is at even damage / heat. There isn't an issue with mechs pair firing or chain firing.

Maybe that's the solution. Leave the heat as is, but bump the damage:

no splash, current velocities
PPC - 11 dmg / 10 heat, scaling minimum from 2 @ 0m to 11 @ 90m
ERPPC - 15 dmg / 15 heat
CER PPC - 15 dmg / 15 heat

Granted, that makes the ERPPC and the C-ERPPC equal except for the clans lower weight and less space.

Granted also that with it all pinpoint, they would hit like the hammer of Thor.

Edited by Quaamik, 20 December 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Quaamik]

I wonder........

If they are serious about reworking all the PPCs, could we get them to just change the damage numbers (a very simple code change) on the PTS and try it?

[Pariah Devalis]

I asked, actually. Russ said it wouldn't be hard or terribly time consuming, but he has concerns that the turnout for pts would be too low for accurate community cross section testing. He also had concerns about rocking the boat, balance wise. That said, leaving busted weapons busted isn't a good option either. Especially as they are currently non-options.

[Mcgral18]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

This is why we will be unlikely to get decent balance. Because people want to tweak weapons to be incredible in the notch they like them in, and use all other applications for the nerfs that supposedly "balance" it.

How does leaving the damage and heat the same, but bumping the velocity counter laser barf? How does it make a ERPPC or CERPPC a viable alternative to a LPLor ERLL? It doesn't, UNLESS you are building an ultra long range sniper.

Faster velocity allows for easier/reliable hits, which allows you to out-trade the Lasers. Can't work with slow velocity, as they can literally walk away from it, while the hitscan does guaranteed damage.

True for Poptarting, Corner and Hill humping.

Dealing 20-50 damage while taking 10-30 in exchange sort of thing. More useful damage if you hit true.
Not really effective right now without quirks (See BJ-3, and I heard some say the Vindicator in the past)

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 20 December 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

Faster velocity allows for easier/reliable hits, which allows you to out-trade the Lasers. Can't work with slow velocity, as they can literally walk away from it, while the hitscan does guaranteed damage.

True for Poptarting, Corner and Hill humping.

Dealing 20-50 damage while taking 10-30 in exchange sort of thing. More useful damage if you hit true.
Not really effective right now without quirks (See BJ-3, and I heard some say the Vindicator in the past)

Quite a few actually. K2 has 50% velocity on it. And a other buffs. Still no replacement for JJs though.

[Quaamik]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 11:14 AM, said:

Quite a few actually. K2 has 50% velocity on it. And a other buffs. Still no replacement for JJs though.

You know what really shows PPCs / ERPPCs are broken?

I've found its more effective to run 2 AC10s and 4 medium lasers on my K2 .....
Even with the quirks......

[Bishop Steiner]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

You know what really shows PPCs / ERPPCs are broken?

I've found its more effective to run 2 AC10s and 4 medium lasers on my K2 .....
Even with the quirks......

stop outing AC10s. They are my secret weapon (cuz they r bad, dont ya know?)

[AntiCitizenJuan]

And bring back PPC/Gauss meta?

No thanks, there needs to be another means to make them more viable, but velocity isnt it.

[Bishop Steiner]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 20 December 2015 - 11:42 AM, said:

And bring back PPC/Gauss meta?

No thanks, there needs to be another means to make them more viable, but velocity isnt it.

I think my OP discussed quite a bit more than velocity, and also kept the velocities away from the PPC Meta era.

[AssaultPig]

I think the splash was actually a good way of making the C-ERPPC more efficient without adding to the 'huge alpha' problem, and I'd be sad to see them abandon it. I don't really want a return to the big pinpoint game.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yeah... But what pinpoint do clan mechs have? Answer? ERPPC and Gauss. Oh, and the UAC2. It wouldn't break things on the Clan side, and as far as IS they already have twice the options before looking at PPC/ERPPC. Leaving them dead weapons is not a good solution, but at least we can keep them skilful weapons worth their weight. I like lead for that purpose alone. No simple point and click.

[Bishop Steiner]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 December 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

Yeah... But what pinpoint do clan mechs have? Answer? ERPPC and Gauss. Oh, and the UAC2. It wouldn't break things on the Clan side, and as far as IS they already have twice the options before looking at PPC/ERPPC. Leaving them dead weapons is not a good solution, but at least we can keep them skilful weapons worth their weight. I like lead for that purpose alone. No simple point and click.

also, don't think 2.5 more PP damage, at 14 heat would get people flocking back to a new meta. TBH.

Reality of the PPC Meta was this... they were a LOT faster and a lot cooler than anything proposed in the OP.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 December 2015 - 12:09 PM.

[Livewyr]

They are fine. Leave them alone.