482 replies to this topic

[SirLANsalot]

Quaamik, on 20 December 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

Because its broken.
- It's hit registry doesn't work.
-They produce the least damage for their heat in the game.




Hitting them isn't the problem.

Doing damage on the other hand ....

I've personally hit a Mad Dog at 300 meters with 6 consecutive C-ERPPCs in the same spot (he was shut down). He powered up and walked off with one side torso showing yellow outline. The pin point portion of the damage should have destroyed th center torso. The splash alone should have done more than what the entire damage was.



Managing heat is a skill thing.

But when a ER PPC does 10 damage for 15 heat, and a ERLL dos 9 for 8, and an LPL does 11 for 10, wht sense does it make to EVER take the ERPPC?

Clan ERPPCS are even worse. At least in IS the ER PPC has a range advantage over the lasers.

Sounds like your internet is shitternet.

My ping, 87-100ms, absolutely NO issues hitting moving mechs, or even ones standing still (easy kill). I see a lot of "gun must be broken cuz XX guy didnt take any damage when I nailed him 800 times standing still", when you should be looking at your ping OR YOUR OPPONENTS PING. If mechs are jumping around and jittery, and its more then one guy, then you have an internet problem, probably would help if you have good FPS too.

ERPPC vs LPL, LPL has always been the better gun over the PPC, even back during the "PPC meta' the LPL was better. BUT! The LPL has less range, is meant for brawls, not long range. At long range engagements, heat becomes less of an issue since you can take your time to cool down and line up your shot, brawls, heat is a major issue as its more about DPS then alpha at those ranges. Clan weapons this still applies, even though the cLPL has a long range, the cERPPC is longer still.

[Bishop Steiner]

SirLANsalot, on 20 December 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

Sounds like your internet is shitternet.

My ping, 87-100ms, absolutely NO issues hitting moving mechs, or even ones standing still (easy kill). I see a lot of "gun must be broken cuz XX guy didnt take any damage when I nailed him 800 times standing still", when you should be looking at your ping OR YOUR OPPONENTS PING. If mechs are jumping around and jittery, and its more then one guy, then you have an internet problem, probably would help if you have good FPS too.

ERPPC vs LPL, LPL has always been the better gun over the PPC, even back during the "PPC meta' the LPL was better. BUT! The LPL has less range, is meant for brawls, not long range. At long range engagements, heat becomes less of an issue since you can take your time to cool down and line up your shot, brawls, heat is a major issue as its more about DPS then alpha at those ranges. Clan weapons this still applies, even though the cLPL has a long range, the cERPPC is longer still.

[SirLANsalot]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 08:04 PM, said:

very funny lol

I just do not see the issue people keep bitching about with PPC or even Gauss. When people whine about not able to hit the broad side of a barn when its standing still. Which is an issue with the server or there connection, but NOT the gun. I will also point out that the guns in question being bitched about, work JUST FINE as is.

[dwwolf]

BigBenn, on 17 December 2015 - 06:23 PM, said:

The MAD-3R has a 50% quirk for PPC velocity. After using the -3R quite a bit (mastered) I strongly believe a velocity boost is all the PPC family needs. Leave everything else alone.

Close...the ridiculous hitbox of the PPC bolt needs to be reduced as well. Terrain is the bane of my PPC armed mechs. Far too many times I impact terrain that seems like its half a meter bigger tham the visual model.

Edited by dwwolf, 21 December 2015 - 03:17 AM.

[Gunner Kisiel]

I just want to throw my post in here to support fixing all types of PPC weapons. I just bought a K2 because it looks good, thinking I could put PPCs on it. I just run 4 LPL because there is no way PPCs could compete in effectiveness; even with the speed quirks. PPCs need to be in MechWarrior. Right now they are a joke.

[Lockon StratosII]

Ok, so this is a mix between Khobai and my idea:

add splash to entire PPC line (bear with me), increase velocity, decrease heat and reduce cooldown. Here are some numbers to put it in perspective with what we have now

PPC_______dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS*
current_____10 ______4 ______10 ____540 ____1100____2.5____2.5
proposed___7+2*1.5 __2.8_____7 _____540 ____1350____2.5____2.5(3.57)

under 90 meters PPC does flat 4+2*3 dmg

ERPPC ____dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS
current _____10 ______4 ______15 ____810 ____1200____3.75___2.5
proposed ___7+2*1.5 __2.8 ____10.5___810 ____1650____3.75___2.5(3.57)

CERPPC ___dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS
current_____10+2*2.5 _ 4______15 ____810 ____1200____3.75___2.5(3.75)
proposed___ 7+2*2.5 __2.8 ____10.5___810 ____1350 ___ 3.75 __ 2.5(4.28)

* non bracket number is pin point damage, and bracketed number is total damage including splash

Now explanation why: Overall HPS and DPS stay the same for pinpoint hits (with a boost when factoring total damage). Cooldown, speed and and cycle buffs were offset with drop in pinpoint damage with having in mind what those buffs would do in combination with gauss and AC line when used together:

Gauss PPC combo is nerfed with one gauss rifle dealing more damage to one section than 2 PPCs combined so 2xgauss and gauss 2xppc deal comparable damage overall (to a single section) and are more trade offs than synergy powerhouse. It becomes more of a sidegrade than and upgrade in that case (trade heat for ammo/space)

AC line PPC combo is also nerfed for the same reason as gauss ppc, and stacking pairs of each line together isn't as lucrative because of the lower spike damage (DPS overall stays the same or is even buffed) compared to tonnage invested. Same can be said for stacking PPCs only. Token advantage would be a "buff" if it were ever used with LBX line to make a "shotgun combo" at closer ranges

LL and LPL would still do more damage to single component assuming you have the skill needed to pull it off but require face time while PPC can just fire and evade. Also mechs running one or two PPCs could squeeze out a shot or two more when running in red because single shot heat cost is reduced.

Also this would solve the PPC Capactor problems when they come up down the line cause those additional 5 damage could be spread to do 3+2*1 so still no overpowering single hits

Think of the gauss as a high powered, bolt action sniper rifle we see in FPS games, in that case PPC line should be DMR: faster rate of fire, but weaker punch (especially cause you can dual or triple wield it in MWO) but still comparably accurate at range

And yea you were right Bishop, no reason to have clan and IS ERPPCs have the same speed cause it has too many advantages already.

[Quaamik]

My ping ranges from 30-40 on N.America server to a high of 120 on Europes server. Fps hovers around 35-40 in game.


I could live with Lockon Stratsolls suggestion. It differentiates IS from a Clan, give enough damage for heat to be viable, keeps the heat low enough and the recharge time low enough to make up for the damage spread. I would bump the splash damage on each by 2x 0.5, just to make the range vs heat positive.

I'd like to see that on the test server to try it and see if it works, without being overpowered.

Edited by Quaamik, 21 December 2015 - 06:44 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

So, as El Bandito pointed out, Russ is considering looking at MILD buffs to the PPC family to enhance use, and try to break the Laservomit Monopoly, but hopefully not replace it with a return to the PPC Meta.

So aside from better hit detection, what REALISTIC ideas do you have for making them more viable, but keeping in mind the razors edge they sit upon as potentially long range, PP-FLD weapons with no need of ammo?

And how to keep them somewhat distinctive?

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Inner Sphere PPC:
-Raise Speed to 1400 m/s
-Bring back the scaling minimum range with one change: scales to a minimum of 5 damage.

-So: DMG 10, Heat 10, Velocity 1400 m/s, Range 90*-540/1080
*see minimum range scaling

2) The Inners Sphere ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt.
-Increase Projectile Velocity to 1500 m/s

-So: DMG 10, Heat 14, Velocity 1500 m/s, Range 810/1620


3) The Clan ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt
-Remove splash damage, increase base projectile damage to 12.5 or 13 dmg
-Leave velocity the same, or mild boost. Possibly shorter range? Hits harder, weighs less, 1 crit smaller, needs a trade off

-So: DMG 12.5/13, Heat 14, Velocity 1200-1300 m/s, Range 750/1500*
*(or 810/1620 if that is too much a trade off, but without the extra projectile speed, of limited use at extreme ranges anyhow)


these ideas are based off of a discussion I am having with Pariah Devalis, to improve the PPCs without (hopefully) overpowering them, but to give each some distinctive characteristics. Basically, the IS PPC is coolest, the IS ER-PPC the best long range, and the C-ER-PPC hit the hardest. Considering Clan Mythos and fighting style being a little more down and dirty seemed to fit, plus Clans often complain they are at a brawling disadvantage, this gives a PP-FLD alternative to the C-LPL.

***No claims the ideas are "perfect as presented", numbers may need to be tweaked, other ideas explored (hence my asking you, the forums) and for a certainty, Quirks re-assessed. But the less reliant a weapon is on quirks to be viable, the better, IMO.

Thoughts?

The most interesting part is the scaling of the IS PPC ... scaling to minimum 5 damage and so from what I understand is now there will be damage done between 0 to 90 m. It just will be scaled 5 damage to full damage. Is that correct? If so then THANK YOU!!! The only real reason why I go ERPPC is the 0 to 90 range thing.

[Black Ivan]

The Clan ERPPC change is a blunt nerf to that weapon. Is already does not make the 15 points damage in one spot. Don't nerf it even more.

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

They synergism PERFECTLY (+/-50M/s) with AC5s now...how often do you see that loadout?

This issue seen there is CD's are off so much and one cannot add enough CD's for the AC5 to make that Synergy truly functional.

 
AC/5		  5.00	 1.00   1.66   620  1,240   1,150  
 
ER PPC		 10.00   15.00   4.00   810  1,620   1,200			
 
PPC 		  10.00   10.00   4.00   540  1,080   1,100							 			
 

Thus 4.00 - 12% = 3.50s or 2x CD even with a CD mod on-board. Waiting to fire both limits the AC5 capabilities in the long run and that is bad.

P.S. Still think the K.I.S.S. principle would be best. Reduce damage drop-off on all Lasers by another 40% after Optimal, leave the (er)PPC's as they are, maybe reduce Heat a tad, and then a long range based weapon can be used at Range, for a change, while looking at the enemy without fear of getting butchered by the return Laser Meta barf.

Edited by Almond Brown, 21 December 2015 - 08:17 AM.

[East Indy]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

They synergize PERFECTLY (+/-50M/s) with AC5s now...how often do you see that loadout?

Yeah, but that's largely because back in the heyday, PPCs had 1,500m/s and AC/5s had 1,300m/s plus 3x maximum range.

PPCs are like throwing spears right now. I understand why and I'm thankful the FLD meta's gone, but they're far from apex weapons.

Two sets of changes I'd love to see in a PTS:

Gauss: 1) Remove charge, 2) retain 5.5-second cooldown, 3) increase velocity to 3,500
PPC: Increase velocity to 1,750

Gauss becomes the quintessential sniper weapon, essentially hitting whatever it's pointed at, although at the currently slower pace. PPCs regain dominance at long range, but become a little too fast for autocannon combos and a little too slow for Gauss. I'd want to see it, anyway.

[Quaamik]

It's not a Nerf to the clan PPC when you factor in the much lower heat and faster recycle time.

[Quaamik]

With the shorter recharge time, the CERPPC would produce more damage per second for the first 3 shots than the CLPL.

I didn't run the figures past that, because it's seldome you get more than 3 back-to-back shots, considering everything else going on (and other weapons).

[Pariah Devalis]

It's a nerf to the weapon when dealing with the reality that few people just stand in the open. You take your shots when you can, and clans are currently lacking a solid ppfld weapon beyond gauss. A hot pseudo gauss is what the cerppc has always been. Even if it isn't feeling 15 pinpoint, it's a travesty it doesn't fulfill a similar role right now at all. Even if it is functionally only a mid range weapon.

[Christof Romulus]

Lockon StratosII, on 21 December 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

PPC_______dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS*
current_____10 ______4 ______10 ____540 ____1100____2.5____2.5
proposed___7+2*1.5 __2.8_____7 _____540 ____1350____2.5____2.5(3.57)

under 90 meters PPC does flat 4+2*3 dmg

ERPPC ____dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS
current _____10 ______4 ______15 ____810 ____1200____3.75___2.5
proposed ___7+2*1.5 __2.8 ____10.5___810 ____1650____3.75___2.5(3.57)

CERPPC ___dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS
current_____10+2*2.5 _ 4______15 ____810 ____1200____3.75___2.5(3.75)
proposed___ 7+2*2.5 __2.8 ____10.5___810 ____1350 ___ 3.75 __ 2.5(4.28)

* non bracket number is pin point damage, and bracketed number is total damage including splash

NO! NOOOOOOOOOOOO!

STHAP IT!

People we've gone and done it and arrived RIGHT BACK WHERE WE STARTED FROM 3 years ago right here.

This is, ONCE AGAIN, the exact same argument (right down to the identical heat values) that led to Ghost heat. Right here. In this thread. Right now. AGAIN.

Let's all just turn around and walk away. We can still do this. Together. All we have to do is stop with this. The PPC should NOT be 7 heat, and the ERPPC should NOT be 10.5 heat, 13 heat, or anything less than 15 heat.

Just stop bringing freaking 2 of them! Has anyone considered this yet? Just bring ONE? Just like all those Clan builds that bring one Gauss and a bunch of lasers - bring a single ERPPC and a bunch of lasers? Give that a try - or just boat lasers - but let's end this before we get a second ghostier heatier system on top of ghost heat - cuz that's not going to just go away.

[Quaamik]

Christof Romulus, on 21 December 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

....bring a single ERPPC and a bunch of lasers? Give that a try - or just boat lasers .....

And that just invalidated your argument.

"Laser Vomit works, so let's just only use Laser Vomit and forget fixing other weapons".

[Mcgral18]

SirLANsalot, on 20 December 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

no idea why people keep saying PPC is bad....learn to shoot?

I never have had an issue with hitting things a long range with PPC, ER or otherwise, regardless of the speed, just means you need to lead the target more, a simple skill adjustment.

Heat is another high skill level thing to work on as well. Twin ERPPC is very hot and having 15 or more DHS can mitigate the heat some but you wont be firing more then 2-3 shots in a row before needing to cool off (hint: use some ballistics during that time).
Normal PPC heat has never been an issue, its always been that 90m minimum range, scaling or otherwise, coupled with the shorter optimal range, it literally has a double negative on its when stacked against its brothers.


I feel there really is no need to adjust the PPC, maybe tweak its heat some to make it more attractive to the scrub-lords out there. Oh and PPC/Gauss never died, still very alive and well, but again, you must use some SKILL to use it.

And here, we see someone who cannot look at something objectively.


The PPC is a terrible weapon in comparison to the LPL (of either faction).
The velocity is too slow to out-trade Hitscan effectively (travel time nearly the duration of Lasers at long range).
Heat to damage ratio is bad, but they aren't meant to be heat efficient. They're meant to be hard hitting (and the ER variety long range).

A weapon that dealt the same damage, for MORE heat, at less range, isn't exactly a top tier weapon. It was rubbish after some changes. 10.6 damage for 8.5 heat after a certain normalising session.
Currently, things have changed. 11 damage for 7 heat is pretty kickass, with nearly 100M greater optimal range, shorter duration.
They were heavily buffed, and outperform the PPCs at nearly all roles (the cLPL more so due to range).


You seem to be confusing "High Skill" with Utter Rubbish. (paired PPCs, at any rate).
Gauss+PPC has been entirely mediocre, in my experience.
Put a LPL on there for more reliable hits, and MORE potentially useful damage.

Some of the old stats, prior to the LPL normalisation:
https://docs.google....f=2&pli=1#gid=0

Better cooldown, 1 point more heat (half point less after Pulse normalization), longer range, doesn't list speed, but at 8 heat, they were 2KM/s.

They were GOOD weapons.

Edited by Mcgral18, 21 December 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[Quaamik]

People keep brining up that paired PPCs shouldn't be on a build.

I give you the Awesome and the Warhawk.

Both have stock variants with 4 PPCs. Those stock variants should be able to work, and be effective WITHOUT weapons quirks. Worst case, they should need only slight weapons quirks to make them fully effective for their weight class (at least in their ability to "punch" with that weight class.

[Lockon StratosII]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 December 2015 - 10:44 AM, said:

It's a nerf to the weapon when dealing with the reality that few people just stand in the open. You take your shots when you can, and clans are currently lacking a solid ppfld weapon beyond gauss. A hot pseudo gauss is what the cerppc has always been. Even if it isn't feeling 15 pinpoint, it's a travesty it doesn't fulfill a similar role right now at all. Even if it is functionally only a mid range weapon.

I agree that cerppc should be hot pseudo gauss, however when you factor in the system we have now and way the game is played along with critslot/weight needed for said weapon you see that making 6 ton weapon comparable to 12 ton weapon isn't the way to go because you get boating problems. What I proposed actually puts two of those 6 ton weapons comparable to that 12 ton weapons, with added bonuses and drawbacks of course, giving you a viable options to choose from:

should I take gauss and hassle with charge up but never worry about heat or take 2 cerppcs and deal with temperature instead for the similar tonnage/space

[Deathlike]

Quaamik, on 21 December 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

People keep brining up that paired PPCs shouldn't be on a build.

I give you the Awesome and the Warhawk.

Both have stock variants with 4 PPCs. Those stock variants should be able to work, and be effective WITHOUT weapons quirks. Worst case, they should need only slight weapons quirks to make them fully effective for their weight class (at least in their ability to "punch" with that weight class.

Um... the key thing about the multi-PPC setups like the Awesome-8Q and the Warhawk-Prime was that it wasn't fired at a constant rate on tabletop... not that you could really do that in this game, but it's not like there are that many serious heat penalties (forget ghost heat, I'm just talking about high levels of heat that isn't affecting movement - stuff seen previously before in MW4, and probably MW2 as well).

It is unlikely that 4 ERPPCs would be able to used at will.. but used in chain/staggered fire or 2-group firing setups (the build itself doesn't lend well in the current meta anyways).

Having a Warhawk-Prime somehow be effective would require bringing back variations of the Stalkers with 2 PPC+2 ERPPC types of setups again (and those were kinda fun days).

Anyways, the velocity makes them really bad for their max range (at best, they are effective at mid-range, where LPL does a better job of the same task). You'll never make an Awesome meta (w/o some stupid crazy armor/structure buffs to the chassis itself) or a Warhawk meta (side torsos are primarily easy targets to aim for due to inability to shield).