482 replies to this topic

[Chris8440]

To make the C-ER PPC a viable alternative to C-Gauss / C-Large Pulse Laser, which are currently vastly preferred, I'd recommend the following:

- increase Weapon cooldown from current 4 sec to at least 5 or even 6 sec, so it fires slower, more akin to an energy gauss
- to compensate for the slower fire rate change damage spread from 10/2.5/2.5 to 13/1/1 Damage
- increase projectile velocity to at least 1400 m/s, to make it effective at ranges beyond 400 m
- leave heat as it currently is, at 15 per shot

This would result in a slightly faster, 30% harder hitting, slower refiring, but still quite hot weapon.

Would still be balanced, compared to C-LRG Pulse Laser, which currently fires ever 3.25 sec, deals 13 damage at a cost of 10 heat, has identical weight and slot requirements, and thanks to being hitscan, can still be adjusted during its burn duration of ~ 1.1 sec. while firing.

[Rashhaverak]

I'm with the crowd that thinks PPCs are mostly fine with the numbers, and instead of trying to make the weapon the equivalent to lasers, add the additional effects that such a weapon should bring.

• PPCs should raise hell with electronics. For the time that the mech's ECM is down, have the radar, screens, HUD and other visuals flashing like an old TV with a bad signal. Have electrical discharges occurring inside the cockpit. Really create a visual disruption. This alone would raise it's use in the field. Oh, and one more thing... as a part of the electronic mayhem inflicted by PPCs, if you have someone locked as a target, the lock should be lost... and AMS shouldn't function.
  
• PPCs should add heat to the target. You hit an enemy mech with a PPC... not sure how much. 5% seems like too little, and 15% seems like too much. Maybe 7%? Start somewhere and then tweak it.
  
• PPCs should do damage under 90 meters, scaled to 0 at point blank. It's nonsensical that it does 10 points at 90m and 0 points at 89m, and the min range limit renders it a non-choice for most.

I do agree that the PPC bolt hit box should be shrunk down. Dang thing hits every terrain feature, even if the view is clear. Make you have to stick out outrageously to fire at the enemy.

Edited by Rashhaverak, 21 December 2015 - 03:19 PM.

[Lockon StratosII]

Chris8440, on 21 December 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

To make the C-ER PPC a viable alternative to C-Gauss / C-Large Pulse Laser, which are currently vastly preferred, I'd recommend the following:

- increase Weapon cooldown from current 4 sec to at least 5 or even 6 sec, so it fires slower, more akin to an energy gauss
- to compensate for the slower fire rate change damage spread from 10/2.5/2.5 to 13/1/1 Damage
- increase projectile velocity to at least 1400 m/s, to make it effective at ranges beyond 400 m
- leave heat as it currently is, at 15 per shot

This would result in a slightly faster, 30% harder hitting, slower refiring, but still quite hot weapon.

Would still be balanced, compared to C-LRG Pulse Laser, which currently fires ever 3.25 sec, deals 13 damage at a cost of 10 heat, has identical weight and slot requirements, and thanks to being hitscan, can still be adjusted during its burn duration of ~ 1.1 sec. while firing.

Those changes make it also cooler weapon (HPS goes from 3.75 to 3 due to longer cycle rate) while still having similar pinpoint DPS (2.5 to 2.6) while having spike dmg increased by 30%. All of that leads to pairing it up with gauss or high bore ac for huge spike damage (2xcerppc+gauss would do 41 PPFLD for 25 ton investment and 31 heat) which is the thing we are looking to avoid since it brought us here in the first place.

[Zordicron]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 December 2015 - 03:53 PM, said:

and you got told it was not going to work (under what we were proposing) why? Too complex. Same as this guy. Was I a **** about it? NO. Tell you to piss off with your ideas, no?

So if you are gonna bunch your panties, that's on you.

I wear boxer briefs, sometimes just regular boxers.

Also, you will have to try harder to explain "complex". The add on "debuff" functions were on top of other suggestions I made about basic number tweaks, and IMO, I would rather they did both at once then just numbers- because I feel numbers would need to be revisited again if they added more functionality to the PPC's. I would rather have the functionality added, WITH the numbers and tested at once so we can just call it good and leave it be(until Paul throws a giant wrench into it again with info war or whatever they want to do).

Back to "complex"- every single thing I listed as a side effect type thing to add to a PPC has a function in game in form of weapon, module, or quirk. When they added the counter ECM, it was probably more work than any effect I am suggesting. The ONLY thing on my list, and I glossed past it, would be having HUD fizzles etc, as that would be something new. (See my first two posts in this thread for more details)

Breaks target lock- we have a module for that
Adds heat to target- flamers do that
agility debuffs- quirks do that
weapon cooldowns- modules do that, quirks too
UAC jam chance- quirks

It goes on, as I said earlier the list of things we could add is as long as Paul and Russ' list of mechanics in the game to give weapons and chassis flavor. I find it really, really hard to swallow that somehow using existing mechanics to add a temp modifier to a target is a hard thing to code, especially given the precedent of counter ECM being in there already.

Even HUD fizzle, maybe it is a tricky one and needs new code. So what...? Wouldn't it be BADASS to have HUD fizzle available so we could use it not just for PPC, but, you know, an actual visual thing for heat scale? Get to hot and HUD starts cooking..hotter and it fails.. hotter yet and you can;t even target an enemy...etc. Maybe other uses too...

Russ is thinking about changes he can make to PPC's. Present a full package, let him pick out stuff he likes. Maybe he will do just numbers at first, and put stuff on the whiteboard for later.

You said yourself you would like to see something like this. So why not present it? Present a two part plan if need be if you are so set on just a couple number tweaks. IMO, I am sick of just number tweaks, we have had that crap going on since beta and guess what, we still aren't there and "just one more" will still leave us lacking. A different mindset about the weapons is needed(again refer to both earlier posts. I know they are more than 5 sentences, but it is all there).

[Pariah Devalis]

Lockon StratosII, on 21 December 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

I agree that cerppc should be hot pseudo gauss, however when you factor in the system we have now and way the game is played along with critslot/weight needed for said weapon you see that making 6 ton weapon comparable to 12 ton weapon isn't the way to go because you get boating problems. What I proposed actually puts two of those 6 ton weapons comparable to that 12 ton weapons, with added bonuses and drawbacks of course, giving you a viable options to choose from:

should I take gauss and hassle with charge up but never worry about heat or take 2 cerppcs and deal with temperature instead for the similar tonnage/space

I am afraid I just do not see the argument. 1 ERPPC currently uses up the effective heat sinking of each and every built in DHS in the base 10 of the engine (of 250 rating or above). A second ERPPC requires an additional 10 tons of DHS to make it remotely useful as a primary offensive weapon system, and by that I mean be able to fire it three times and not instantly shut down. That means two ERPPC isn't 12 tons, it's *22 tons. For two guns that, currently, deal only 20 damage where it counts. The Gauss rifle, alone, deals 15 and requires 2.5-3 tons of ammo per rifle, meaning that it is an investment of around 15 tons, and has effectively zero influence on the heat efficiency of any other weapon systems you may be carrying.

*Related and important note: Most Clan heavy mechs only seem to have around that much room in pod space, and anything lighter has less

If you choose to load up on a Gauss and 2 ERPPC, that requires 37 tons of equipment (2x ERPPC, 10x minimal DHS, 1x Gauss Rifle, 3x tons ammunition), if you wish to be able to put out consistent damage output in the current post poptart era. That is a hell of a tonnage investment. People used to get away with fewer DHS because you could expose the mech for an incredibly short period with the old poptart meta, and fall back into cover to cool off. It doesn't work that way, anymore, and you need to be able to follow up one hit with another, because you will be punished for any time you poke your head out. If you do want the heat sinks to make full use of your ERPPC, you are basically looking at a Warhawk, Direwolf, or stripped down Ebon Jaguars - and that's it.

Let's say the damage of C-ERPPC gets bumped, now, to 13 damage, and you see a 2xERPPC 1xGauss Build. That is putting out 41 damage that requires leading a moving target, but has the benefit of being pinpoint - assuming you manage to get that Gauss slug to hit the same spot as the ERPPC which isn't TOO difficult. A typical Clan laserboat, by comparison, has no lead concerns, is hitscan, and can deal around 54 points of damage at a similar range at approximately the same heat efficiency as the paired 15 heat ERPPC. Laser boats are still also generally more flexible in a fight, being able to adjust a shot mid fire, and can choose to fire a partial salvo to increase their ability to keep outputting damage when getting toasty.

The balance gets pretty damn close, then, between Clan laser vomit and 13 damage clan ERPPCs.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 December 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[FlareHeart Devalis]

I agree with Pariah. Right now the damage is not currently worth the obscene heat that double C-ERPPC generates. As a primary weapon system you have to remember that Heat Sinks are basically like the ammo for your energy weapons. Failing to take the HSs required into account just skews everything.

[Lockon StratosII]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 December 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

I am afraid I just do not see the argument. 1 ERPPC currently uses up the effective heat sinking of each and every built in DHS in the base 10 of the engine (or 250 rating or above). A second ERPPC requires an additional 10 tons of DHS to make it remotely useful as a primary offensive weapon system, and by that I mean be able to fire it three times and not instantly shut down. That means two ERPPC isn't 12 tons, it's 22 tons. For two guns that, currently, deal only 20 damage where it counts. The Gauss rifle, alone, deals 15 and requires 2.5-3 tons of ammo per rifle, meaning that it is an investment of around 15 tons, and has effectively zero influence on the heat efficiency of any other weapon systems you may be carrying.

If you choose to load up on a Gauss and 2 ERPPC, that requires 37 tons of equipment (2x ERPPC, 10x minimal DHS, 1x Gauss Rifle, 3x tons ammunition), if you wish to be able to put out consistent damage output in the current post poptart era. That is a hell of a tonnage investment. People used to get away with fewer DHS because you could expose the mech for an incredibly short period with the old poptart meta, and fall back into cover to cool off. It doesn't work that way, anymore, and you need to be able to follow up one hit with another, because you will be punished for any time you poke your head out.

Let's say the damage of C-ERPPC gets bumped, now, to 13 damage, and you see a 2xERPPC 1xGauss Build. That is putting out 41 damage that requires leading a moving target, but has the benefit of being pinpoint - assuming you manage to get that Gauss slug to hit the same spot as the ERPPC which isn't TOO difficult. A typical Clan laserboat, by comparison, has no lead concerns, is hitscan, and can deal around 54 points of damage at a similar range at approximately the same heat efficiency as the paired 15 heat ERPPC. Laser boats are still also generally more flexible in a fight, being able to adjust a shot mid fight, and can choose to fire a partial salvo to increase their ability to keep outputting damage when getting toasty.

The balance gets pretty damn close, then, between Clan laser vomit and 13 damage clan ERPPCs.

As I said before comparing lasers and ppcs is like apples and oranges but I will forget about that and look at that hypotetical scenario: Assuming both pilots know what are they doing, laser boat will never get those 54 damage where he needs it (long burn time and enemy twisting to spread the damage) lets say at best he will get ~50% where he needs it and rest spread on other areas (assuming reaction time of 250ms, average visual reaction for humans, up to 250ms ping and 1s burn timw for lasers, meaning basically he gets half of second on target before enemy starts twisting) which is 27 damage on target per "salvo". On the other hand lets say ppc/gauss has also 50% chance to land all 3 projectiles on targeted area, but favoring ppcs cause of higher combined damage. That is either 41 damage to target area or 26, averaging on 33.5 in the long run. That is not comparable, it's way better. Then again this is simplification because there are many more factors in play (the way ppc guy plays, he can wait till laser boat starts firing then shoot him dead center and going into defensive twist redunging damage even more, similarly laser boat can chain fire or spread into groups to keep enemy in defensive stance or fire one laser then wait till other guy turn to him and unload almost entire alpha on him when he is trying to aim, etc...) and that is why I don't like comparing PPFLD with PPDoT in a isolated case.

Now take into factor my proposed ppc/gauss combo: lets still say that you still have 50% chance to hit same area but now you are favoring gauss since it does more damage than those 2 ppcs (15 v 14 in desired area). That would be either 20 damage on hitting adjecant area with ppcs (splash hits desired area) or 29 if all lands, averaging on 24.5 per "salvo" which is closer to laser boat average. (also simplification because i havent factored the reduced heat of proposed ppcs, nor shorter cooldown, nor the things I didnt factor in the first case etc...again, dont like comparing lasers and ppcs in a isolated case)

[Pariah Devalis]

Now you are ignoring travel time and the speed a PPC carrier can physically torso twist. Where is this hypothetical engagement happening at that leaves the last boat no chance to torso twist from the incoming ppc? How terrible is the laser boat pilot's aim that he only manages 50% on target? Your hypothetical variation is not at all accounting for reasonable error, here.  Even taking into account, add you say, there are many factors, your stated success rate and accuracy stretches imagination beyond t4 piloting. In which case the odds of the PPC hitting consistently is dubious as well.
Besides which: Laser boats tend to have 25ish tons to work with. 37 is gauss and twin ERPPC. Just the two erppc is just 26 damage. Even more in balance according to your fifty percent laser efficiency. In other words, you need to be a bigger mech with more free tonnage using ERPPC plus other guns to surpass laser vomit.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 December 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[zudukai]

currently, if the C-ERPPC were to stay as it is with every other variable other then splash, IMO it would be in a good decent place.

• remove splash for 15 PPFLD 15 heat and 1200m/s it's hot as hell to prevent boating already.

it just doesn't hit worth it's weight when C-LPL hits for 13 pinpoint, and C-ML hit for 7 pinpoint. i would be open to trying a longer cool down to offset it's FLD capability.

• maintains ac/5 synergy,
  
• 1 of 2 FLD clan weapons,
  
• med-long (500-800m) range focus

Edited by zudukai, 21 December 2015 - 05:51 PM.

[Quaamik]

Couple of points here:

- PPCs have to be compared to lasers because they compete for the same hard point. If they are not balanced against lasers, they will either seldom be taken or lasers will seldom be used.

- "Balanced" against lasers dos not mean "equal in every way" to lasers. The differences will and should be there. They should just be such that the tradeoffs of one weapon to another can be used to reflect play style, and are not so obviously favoring one that the other becomes 2nd tier or worse, a joke if taken.

- Currently the heat vs damage (pinpoint or otherwise) favors LPLs and ERLLs by a significant margin. The overall heat of PPCs is also so high that repeated firing of more than a single 1 forces even an assault mech to find a way to back out of the fight to cool down. That needs to be fixed. Either the heat needs to go down enough so they can be fired more times or the damage has to go up enough to make those few shots REALLY count.

- As examples, look at three iconic PPC mechs. The Marauder, the Awesome and the Warhawk. The first has 3 and the other two have 4 each. In bone stock configuration any one of them should be able to cycle through their PPCs in a short enough time that the last one fires before the first can recycle. (Without quirks) Otherwise why would they have that number (they would have used the extra tonnage for heat sinks or lasers)?

Edited by Quaamik, 21 December 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Lockon StratosII]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 December 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Now you are ignoring travel time and the speed a PPC carrier can physically torso twist. Where is this hypothetical engagement happening at that leaves the last boat no chance to torso twist from the incoming ppc? How terrible is the laser boat pilot's aim that he only manages 50% on target? Your hypothetical variation is not at all accounting for reasonable error, here.  Even taking into account, add you say, there are many factors, your stated success rate and accuracy stretches imagination beyond t4 piloting. In which case the odds of the PPC hitting consistently is dubious as well.
Besides which: Laser boats tend to have 25ish tons to work with. 37 is gauss and twin ERPPC. Just the two erppc is just 26 damage. Even more in balance according to your fifty percent laser efficiency. In other words, you need to be a bigger mech with more free tonnage using ERPPC plus other guns to surpass laser vomit.

I am not ignoring travel time of projectiles, that is why they have the 50% chance to hit same section (lets say the are targeting ct, 50% time all projectiles land on ct, other 50% they hit ct and lst for example) same goes for laser boat 50% time on desired mark (half of burn duration he is hitting ct, then enemy twists and he hits lct or la for example, not missing entirely) I the damage to desired area not total damage to mech. At 400 meters, with current cerppc speed of 1200, you have 0.33s to dodge before ppc bolt hits you, which given parameters of 250ms reaction speed and ping of up to 250 (which was in laser boat favor) I gave to ppc boat being shot at you will not evade unless you have ping under 50 or cat like reflexes or both. I have actually assumed skilled pilots which will time their shots and defences for maximum effect (they will hit every turn and negate as much damage as possible, hitting the desired area every turn despite enemy twisting etc). In second scenario I actually favored laser boat by not increasing the chance of ppc carrier to land all 3 projectiles on same are cause of the increased speed. Laser boat would do full damage to single component only if enemy is facing him during entire burn duration, which happens in laser vomit meta cause everybody wants to vomit more

[Matthew Ace]

Quaamik, on 21 December 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

...

- As examples, look at three iconic PPC mechs. The Marauder, the Awesome and the Warhawk. The first has 3 and the other two have 4 each. In bone stock configuration any one of them should be able to cycle through their PPCs in a short enough time that the last one fires before the first can recycle. (Without quirks) Otherwise why would they have that number (they would have used the extra tonnage for heat sinks or lasers)?

Would just like to make corrections here:

1) Most Marauders with PPCs or ER PPCs have 2; the standard Marauder IIC has 3 Clan ER PPCs
2) Awesome 8Q has 3 PPCs; the 9M has 3 ER PPCs; the 9Q has 4 PPCs

Edited by Matthew Ace, 21 December 2015 - 06:16 PM.

[Quaamik]

While I like the pinpoint damage for PPCs, I think it would be worth trading if it lowered the heat and shortened the cycle time considerably. Lockon Stratosll's idea has merit. I think te numbers need a little improvement though:

IS PPC
Lockon's idea was 10 dmg (7+1.5+1.5) for 7 heat and a 2.8 second recycle and a speed increase to 1300 mps
The under 90 m was scaled.
I'd suggest tweaking that to 10 dmg (5+2.5+2.5) for 7 heat and a 2.6 second cycle time with no reduction of damage under 90 m.

This would make it the better choice than the IS ERPPC for close - mid range brawling, with fast cycle and less heat.

IS ERPPC
Lockon's idea was 10 dmg (7+1.5+1.5) for 10.5 heat and a 2.8 second recycle and a speed increase to 1650 mps
I'd suggest tweaking that to 11 dmg (6+2.5+2.5) for 10 heat.

This would make it the better choice than the IS ERPPC for long range engagements, taking more heat (and skill) but hitting harder.



C-ERPPC
Lockon's idea was 12 dmg (7+2.5+2.5) for 10.5 heat and a 2.8 second recycle and a speed increase to 1350 mps
I'd suggest tweaking that to 12 dmg (6+3+3) for 10 heat.

For game balance, this would make it hit a little harder than the IS ERPPC, but spreading the extra damage. It would still weigh less and take less space (allowing more room for clan heat sinks to accommodate brawling) and would require a little more skill at longer ranges.


As for secondary effects, I'd LOVE to see them. I just don't think they can be made substantial enough to use to balance the PPCs against other weapons. In order of what I'd like to see:
- they impart 1-2 points of heat to the target.
- they momentarily blind the target (all vision modes, kind of like missiles sometimes do),just a flash like lightning
- they cause target lock loss for the target
- they impart some shake to the target, like ACs do
- HUD shake / distortion


----edited because my math sucked at first.

Edited by Quaamik, 21 December 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[Quaamik]

Matthew Ace, on 21 December 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

Would just like to make corrections here:

1) Most Marauders with PPCs or ER PPCs have 2; the standard Marauder IIC has 3 Clan ER PPCs
2) Awesome 8Q has 3 PPCs; the 9M has 3 ER PPCs; the 9Q has 4 PPCs

I stand corrected. I thought the Marauder 5D had 3. I must have been mistaking it for the IIC.

[Lockon StratosII]

Quaamik, on 21 December 2015 - 06:18 PM, said:

changes...

Numbers are there to be changed and tweaked, was just pointing out general idea, nothing is set in stone

[Quaamik]

Comparing the figures I listed to LLs, ERLLs and LPLs, for balance since they compete for the same hard points:

IS ------------------------- dmg / heat / cycle time (includes burn time) / best range / max range
LL --------------------------- 9 / 7 / 4.25 / 450 / 900
ERLL ---------------------- 9 / 8 / 4.50 / 675 / 1350
LPL ----------------------- 11 / 7 / 3.92 / 365 / 730
PPC (suggested) ------- 10* / 7 / 2.6 / 540 / 1080
ERPPC (suggested) --- 11* / 10 / 2.8 / 810 / 1620


Clan -------------------------- dmg / heat / cycle time (includes burn time) / best range / max range
c-ERLL ------------------------11 / 10 / 4.75 / 740 / 1480
c-LPL --------------------------13 / 10 / 4.37 / 600 / 1200
c-ERPPC (suggested) ----12* / 10 / 2.8 / 810 / 1620



* Damage is spread out

Edited by Quaamik, 21 December 2015 - 06:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

I "like" how people think the velocity is "fine" with ERPPCs.

Use an unquirked ERPPC mech, and TRY to hit (let alone accurately) a reasonably fast MOVING target @ 600m+ (we're talking Clan Heavy level speeds ~81kph).

You're very likely going to struggle to do that consistently... assuming your target isn't totally clueless. In which the meta is mid-range, you are going to lose those trades (vs Clan LPL or quirked LL/ERLL/PPC builds).

Edited by Deathlike, 21 December 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[Redbackz]

IS PPC on mechs with good quirks are fun. Otherwise I do not like them.

If nothing else reducing the projectiles area of collision, far too easy to collide with edges of enviroment etc.

Clan ER PPC heat is an issue for me. Adder prime with x2 is a good example. Adder has great projectile speed and cycle time is great, but the Adder shuts down so easy due to the heat limit changes or override and melt.

I understand 15 pinpoint dmg on Clan Er PPC would be OP, perhaps lose the splash and have 12-13 pinpoint dmg as a comprimise?

Edited by Redbackz, 21 December 2015 - 07:01 PM.

[Quaamik]

Comparing the energy weapons, using the figures I suggested, I'd predict that:

Assaults would start gravitating to PPCs / ERPPCs (or c-ERPPCs for clan) as they would have the weight available for heat sinks to utilize the faster cycle time.

Heavies would be split between those who liked the no lead & hitscan of lasers, and the cycle time and range of PPCs.

Mediums who liked long range lasers would split between those who liked the no lead & hitscan of lasers, and the range of PPCs, as they could not utilize the fast cycle time without overheating.

Lights who liked long range lasers would split between those who liked the no lead & hitscan of lasers, and the range of PPCs, as they could not utilize the fast cycle time without overheating.

Edited by Quaamik, 21 December 2015 - 06:58 PM.

[Redbackz]

Deathlike, on 21 December 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

I "like" how people think the velocity is "fine" with ERPPCs.

Use an unquirked ERPPC mech, and TRY to hit (let alone accurately) a reasonably fast MOVING target @ 600m+ (we're talking Clan Heavy level speeds ~81kph).

You're very likely going to struggle to do that consistently... assuming your target isn't totally clueless. In which the meta is mid-range, you are going to lose those trades (vs Clan LPL or quirked LL/ERLL/PPC builds).

I used ER PPC's a lot in the past, I have never broken 60% accuracy. The quirked mechs are much better, but this also has a detrimental effect when I play a mech without the quirks as it takes time to adjust to the projectile speed difference . Personally I normally have more luck hitting at longer ranges for some reason. When you get close I find it harder to hit mechs at close range as the dely is so much different from other weapons.