482 replies to this topic

[Quaamik]

Deathlike, on 21 December 2015 - 06:53 PM, said:

I "like" how people think the velocity is "fine" with ERPPCs.

Use an unquirked ERPPC mech, and TRY to hit (let alone accurately) a reasonably fast MOVING target @ 600m+ (we're talking Clan Heavy level speeds ~81kph).

You're very likely going to struggle to do that consistently... assuming your target isn't totally clueless. In which the meta is mid-range, you are going to lose those trades (vs Clan LPL or quirked LL/ERLL/PPC builds).

At what range?

At 300 m? - No problem
At 500 m? - It takes a little practice but you can learn to.
At 700 m? - It takes practice and luck.
At 1000 m? - Its more luck than skill.

That said, is the ERPPC or the c-ERPPC SUPPOSED to be routinely hitting moving mechs at full range (810 m, +/- 100 m)? Even Gauss takes some skill to hit a moving mech at that range.

I would expect ERPPCS / c-ERPPCs to be hitting moving mechs at 500 m, slow & big targets (Assaults) at 650 m and forcing mechs to keep moving at 700 m and beyond (or risk being hit).

[Bishop Steiner]

Black Ivan, on 21 December 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

The Clan ERPPC change is a blunt nerf to that weapon. Is already does not make the 15 points damage in one spot. Don't nerf it even more.

Um...it would be doing MORE damage to one location, not less, for less heat at the current speed...how exactly is that a nerf?

[Deathlike]

Quaamik, on 21 December 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

At what range?

At 300 m? - No problem
At 500 m? - It takes a little practice but you can learn to.
At 700 m? - It takes practice and luck.
At 1000 m? - Its more luck than skill.

That said, is the ERPPC or the c-ERPPC SUPPOSED to be routinely hitting moving mechs at full range (810 m, +/- 100 m)? Even Gauss takes some skill to hit a moving mech at that range.

I would expect ERPPCS / c-ERPPCs to be hitting moving mechs at 500 m, slow & big targets (Assaults) at 650 m and forcing mechs to keep moving at 700 m and beyond (or risk being hit).

It's not just about hitting, it's also about receiving damage.

Even if you can hit said targets, you'll likely to receive more damage than give it (you'd have to have targets not focused on you).

Unquirked ERPPC (IS or Clan) vs the alternative weapons (especially when quirked) at approximately the same range ~500-600m really favor the latter.

[Bishop Steiner]

Eldagore, on 21 December 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

You said yourself you would like to see something like this. So why not present it? Present a two part plan if need be if you are so set on just a couple number tweaks. IMO, I am sick of just number tweaks, we have had that crap going on since beta and guess what, we still aren't there and "just one more" will still leave us lacking. A different mindset about the weapons is needed(again refer to both earlier posts. I know they are more than 5 sentences, but it is all there).

Well, you do realize that this entire topic is doing exactly that? It's not like I am writing the OP and expecting Russ to say..oh Bishop, this is perfect! I actually do expect that the Devs who do read this might cherry pick and like other things.

But here's the deal with so many proposals people made, like say Roland over the years...is they were a ton of work, a lot of new code, etc, all with no promise of success. I'm just being pragmatic... simple, direct, is what PGI seems to listen to best.

But every so often out of a dozen ideas...they go and pick Ghost Heat.... so even that's not a lock.

[zudukai]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Well, you do realize that this entire topic is doing exactly that? It's not like I am writing the OP and expecting Russ to say..oh Bishop, this is perfect! I actually do expect that the Devs who do read this might cherry pick and like other things.

But here's the deal with so many proposals people made, like say Roland over the years...is they were a ton of work, a lot of new code, etc, all with no promise of success. I'm just being pragmatic... simple, direct, is what PGI seems to listen to best.

But every so often out of a dozen ideas...they go and pick Ghost Heat.... so even that's not a lock.

talking about it is the first step to getting it changed fixed, it needs work.

[Zordicron]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 December 2015 - 07:35 PM, said:

Well, you do realize that this entire topic is doing exactly that? It's not like I am writing the OP and expecting Russ to say..oh Bishop, this is perfect! I actually do expect that the Devs who do read this might cherry pick and like other things.

But here's the deal with so many proposals people made, like say Roland over the years...is they were a ton of work, a lot of new code, etc, all with no promise of success. I'm just being pragmatic... simple, direct, is what PGI seems to listen to best.

But every so often out of a dozen ideas...they go and pick Ghost Heat.... so even that's not a lock.

This topic does do that.... right up until you start deciding what is "too complex" and not the dev team. Not to sound too obtuse, but it's like you are sticking your fingers in your ears if someone suggests something that isn;t at least parallel with your OP.

The whole point of what I suggest is a way to try to buff the PPC's without power creeping them to laser levels. I am sick of just making weapons buffed in dmg or DPS because some other one does it better. Granted, PPC's have been in time out for a long time, and some bit of lovin' is acceptable to me because the weapons are in need. But I want to see that love, directed at specific versions of the PPC in different ways to diversify them and make them have a role. "Side effects" are a part of that IMO, and would serve to define a role for each one by pairing effects with the particular PPC version's stats.

Changing just numbers on a "family" of PPC's- Peanut Butter
Changing the numbers in a way the PPC's are all given a role- PB and J

Changing numbers to give each PPC a role, AND add some side effects that aid the user in this role and further magnify the particular strengths of each version- Toasted PB and J with banana and marshmallow with a side of chocolate Nutella and a glass of milk.

I would, at a minimum, go for the second one and put the last one on the white board because, well, it would be awesome and would also fit right in with Paul's info war stuff later, AND some of the stuff would have uses in other aspects of the game meaning some of the code work would be turned into a basic asset not just a niche usage.

[Bishop Steiner]

Eldagore, on 22 December 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

This topic does do that.... right up until you start deciding what is "too complex" and not the dev team. Not to sound too obtuse, but it's like you are sticking your fingers in your ears if someone suggests something that isn;t at least parallel with your OP.

Wow.

You really did get your feelings hurt that I didn't hug and embrace your post.

I also didn't shoot it down. At least anymore than I shot down 90% of the posts on here. I don't see them getting all upset about it, so I have to assume it's tied into me daring to "welcome" a newbie to forum posting. Because if you were actually paying attention, I also politely pointed out that we were discussing simple ideas to him, also.

I'll be sure to tell new posters to piss off in the future if it makes you feel better?

As to the relevant side, I also did not run with or go out of my way to repress any posts on here. Some I commented on to the positive as to why, and others to the negative. End of story.

I set my topic up with some pretty simple outlooks because I would like to see SOMETHING, anything done to enhance PPC usability, and no offense, but anything past simple does not really seem to get looked at. If you want to go on ad infinitum with how you think it should be done, then by all means post a topic on it. I'm really not sure why you think I should turn my own discussion into a round robin about yours?

I'm sorry you took all this as a personal affront. It wasn't. And it isn't, but you seem very intent on taking it that way.

I'm really trying NOT to be a ***** about this (and since saractic is my nature, it's probably a losing battle), but you seem to be taking this way out off proportion.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 December 2015 - 07:41 PM.

[SelectiveCape12]

I'll just put this up for the record. I don't mind having my ideas get shot down. They're just ideas, nothing more. I don't expect anyone to follow ideas, at least not my ideas, to the letter. Afterall the whole purpose of ideas are to just inspire others to make even greater ideas. If something doesn't work because of such and such, that's fine. We'll still learn something from it at the end.

I respect and admire Bishop's honesty in critiquing my idea. Since he has more experience in dealing with game balance than I do, I'd gladly defer to him, and anyone else, for advice.

[zudukai]

with the many good suggestions already posted, we should continue to discuss why the weapon falls short, and why or how the weapon changes would bring it farther in line with the other systems.

feeling that the clans are under represented party in this thread (aka IMO) i will continue from this perspective.

currently with all the clan weapons, they all have significant modifications to balance them against the IS equivalents, currently the C-ERPPC hits for how i feel as weaker then the rest of the ballistics, and significantly hotter then any of the lasers.

comparing it to the clan side, they hit much weaker then clan ballistics trading extra face time for more damage over time, while the lasers hit much harder with more complimentary systems, for a much lower heat point.

comparing it to the only other clan front loaded damage weapon, the heat neutral, 6 second recycle, 15 damage Gauss rifle, with increased component destruction chances, leave it on the opposite scale, absurd heat, low 4 second recycle, middle of the road damage, small critical space occupation.

it really needs to settle into a new place. almost every other option is better... (ac2, i'm looking at you..)

Edited by zudukai, 22 December 2015 - 07:08 PM.

[YueFei]

One possible dynamic would be to have PPC/ERPPC velocities cranked up to where they are actually effective within their stated max ranges against bigger and slower mechs, while still keeping the velocity low enough that laser-armed faster mechs could avoid it and out-trade them.

That is, big mech with PPC/ERPPC out-trades big mech that's using lasers. But, big mech with PPC/ERPPC can get zoned and out-traded by smaller faster mechs with lasers. And in turn those smaller/faster mechs with lasers get their faces wrecked by big mechs with lasers.

Essentially trying to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Meet 2 goals:
1.) Make PPC/ERPPC viable.... without making PPC/ERPPC outperform the other big energy weapons in all circumstances.
2.) Open the possibility of counter-play using laser-armed more agile mechs, to meet PGI's original stated design goal to avoid making MWO a tonnage race.

It could be done by a combination of PPC/ERPPC speed changes, combined with accel/decel buffs to the smaller mechs.

[Kraftwerkedup]

I always felt like they should double the velocity, but halve the rate of fire.

Lower ghost heat too, so you have a few niche mechs that can do 40 PPFLD, but just cant do it often, and instantly becomes sitting ducks to every light in the game.

Quirks make that impossible though. Then a couple mechs have stupid powerful PPCs, while everything else is more balanced.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 22 December 2015 - 07:32 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Lockon StratosII, on 21 December 2015 - 06:07 AM, said:

Ok, so this is a mix between Khobai and my idea:

add splash to entire PPC line (bear with me), increase velocity, decrease heat and reduce cooldown. Here are some numbers to put it in perspective with what we have now

PPC_______dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS*
current_____10 ______4 ______10 ____540 ____1100____2.5____2.5
proposed___7+2*1.5 __2.8_____7 _____540 ____1350____2.5____2.5(3.57)

under 90 meters PPC does flat 4+2*3 dmg

ERPPC ____dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS
current _____10 ______4 ______15 ____810 ____1200____3.75___2.5
proposed ___7+2*1.5 __2.8 ____10.5___810 ____1650____3.75___2.5(3.57)

CERPPC ___dmg_____cycle___heat___range___speed___HPS___DPS
current_____10+2*2.5 _ 4______15 ____810 ____1200____3.75___2.5(3.75)
proposed___ 7+2*2.5 __2.8 ____10.5___810 ____1350 ___ 3.75 __ 2.5(4.28)

* non bracket number is pin point damage, and bracketed number is total damage including splash

Now explanation why: Overall HPS and DPS stay the same for pinpoint hits (with a boost when factoring total damage). Cooldown, speed and and cycle buffs were offset with drop in pinpoint damage with having in mind what those buffs would do in combination with gauss and AC line when used together:

Gauss PPC combo is nerfed with one gauss rifle dealing more damage to one section than 2 PPCs combined so 2xgauss and gauss 2xppc deal comparable damage overall (to a single section) and are more trade offs than synergy powerhouse. It becomes more of a sidegrade than and upgrade in that case (trade heat for ammo/space)

AC line PPC combo is also nerfed for the same reason as gauss ppc, and stacking pairs of each line together isn't as lucrative because of the lower spike damage (DPS overall stays the same or is even buffed) compared to tonnage invested. Same can be said for stacking PPCs only. Token advantage would be a "buff" if it were ever used with LBX line to make a "shotgun combo" at closer ranges

LL and LPL would still do more damage to single component assuming you have the skill needed to pull it off but require face time while PPC can just fire and evade. Also mechs running one or two PPCs could squeeze out a shot or two more when running in red because single shot heat cost is reduced.

Also this would solve the PPC Capactor problems when they come up down the line cause those additional 5 damage could be spread to do 3+2*1 so still no overpowering single hits

Think of the gauss as a high powered, bolt action sniper rifle we see in FPS games, in that case PPC line should be DMR: faster rate of fire, but weaker punch (especially cause you can dual or triple wield it in MWO) but still comparably accurate at range

And yea you were right Bishop, no reason to have clan and IS ERPPCs have the same speed cause it has too many advantages already.

Not a fan of the splash mechanic to begin with, but on top of that, nerfing the CERPPC? Plus its literally the ERPPC but with 2 more damage. That's asking for an IS-boot licker to scream Clans OP all over again (originally an IS pilot taken bondsman by clans).

[Mcgral18]

Kraftwerkedup, on 22 December 2015 - 07:31 PM, said:

I always felt like they should double the velocity, but halve the rate of fire.

Lower ghost heat too, so you have a few niche mechs that can do 40 PPFLD, but just cant do it often, and instantly becomes sitting ducks to every light in the game.

Quirks make that impossible though. Then a couple mechs have stupid powerful PPCs, while everything else is more balanced.

I agree with the velocity, but MWO is too fast a game for 8s recycles. The only other weapon system which has that is Arty+Air, at 10 seconds (but 350 damage potential).

6 seconds is really the threshold in my opinion, as the Gauss shows (at 6.25s min cycle). 5.5s being my preferred starting point for a significant velocity buff.

[Pariah Devalis]

Mcgral18, on 22 December 2015 - 09:07 PM, said:

I agree with the velocity, but MWO is too fast a game for 8s recycles. The only other weapon system which has that is Arty+Air, at 10 seconds (but 350 damage potential).

6 seconds is really the threshold in my opinion, as the Gauss shows (at 6.25s min cycle). 5.5s being my preferred starting point for a significant velocity buff.

Hilariously, and I am not sure I am making a point here at all - just sorta rambling - IIRC the ERPPC in MW4 was on a 7 second cooldown. It was also a gauss rifle for damage purposes. The pacing and usability of the 7 second ERPPC felt appropriate as even though it was insanely hot, you could manage the heat easily due to cooldown and the damage it inflicted was absolutely worth it, though non-doubled armor and structure was no doubt an aspect of it. The side benefit of long cooldown, high heat was that you didn't want to boat ERPPC in game modes that had heat, because even though the cooldown was long, the heat generated was so high you didn't want to deal with the heat of more than 2 ERPPC at any one time.

That said, anything beyond about 6 seconds feels like an eternity in MWO. Possibly because of the inherent increased durability of mechs as opposed to prior MW titles. Double the mech to go through, twice the shots to fire. Twice the shots plus longer cooldowns starts encroaching on being uncomfortable.

Classic roles of the PPC series always seemed to be:

PPC an ammoless AC10
IS-ERPPC a long range, hot, ammoless AC10
C-ERPPC a long range, hot, ammoless Gauss Rifle

Considering how so many take a poor view of the AC10 (even though it isn't THAT bad, but inefficient for the tonnage), and the PPC series all currently function like excessively hot AC10, I'm sure that isn't assisting the overall feeling of "blegh" they give. I wonder, though, if we were to more closely align the PPC with an AC10 as far as heat to damage to cooldown, and work up from there, what would happen. How "bad" would it be if standard PPC were, essentially, warmer, but slower firing ammoless AC10? Should the minimum range thing still be an issue for them at all?

Given the Clan lack of PPFLD in this game, I don't see a particular point of threat in giving clans a very hot 15 heat ERPPC that deals a similar range of direct damage (ie: not exactly, but close) as a Gauss Rifle outside of very specific, very one trick pony builds that invest in a stupid amount of tonnage for all of three guns. I'd also be personally fine with the idea of cutting their range to somewhere between an IS PPC and an IS-ERPPC to compensate. Make it a heavy hitting, very hot, medium to longish range PPFLD weapon - even if the projectile speed was kept in its AC5 level speeds. If the C-ERPPC can stand on its own without pairing, like how the Gauss Rifle used to be able to be a functional solo weapon before the combination of charge up and increased cooldown, it would significantly help out smaller mechs like the Shadow Cat, Ice Ferret, the Adder, the Nova, or really any mech with either too few hardpoints or too few tons of pod space to mess around with.

That IS-ERPPC, though. It fits between the PPC and C-ERPPC. Just straight heat reduction from current doesn't make too much sense - the standard PPC is colder and would do most of what the IS-ERPPC does, range wise. A faster velocity, possibly longer range, and a heat decrease below the current 15? I could see that, since it is only 10 damage a whack, but could be tuned for longer range engagements - though I'd drop that ghost heat on IS ERPPC to 2 (triggers at 3), just like Clans, if it isn't already set at 2, to prevent excessive abuse of the weapon system.

This would fill in two gaps, for the Clan and IS respectively. Clans finally get a second viable PPFLD option that, importantly, wouldn't just perpetuate the old "I'm at 900 meters, frak you, huehuehue" situation that, though entirely enjoyable to me, caused so much issue on Clan launch. IS, for their part, would get a long range option to help counter some of the already heavily reduced Clan range advantage. Meanwhile, if the IS PPC is efficient enough for its tonnage and damage, it could open the way to brawler energy builds that don't entirely rely on MPlas and SPLas to do their work, which I am sure would be a welcomed change of pace for otherwise stale laser vomit gameplay.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 December 2015 - 04:24 AM.

[Russhuster]

C ER PPC a bugy and useless weapon that tends to fire through the target
Clan PPC Bug
bevore that isnt fixed any discussion is obsolete

[Widowmaker1981]

Russhuster, on 23 December 2015 - 04:22 AM, said:

C ER PPC a bugy and useless weapon that tends to fire through the target
Clan PPC Bug
bevore that isnt fixed any discussion is obsolete

Do you have any videos? I have no problems with PPCs that actually hit their target registering - its quite possible to shoot through the armpit or between the legs of an enemy mech with them, but thats not a problem with the weapon, it just means you missed. Ill admit that i dont always see my PPC bolts connect with the target, because im normally back behind cover or twisted by the time it hits (because thats the entire point of using them), but most games my ending damage is where i would expect it to be, and ive just recently had a 2000 dmg game in CW using only 2 ERPPCs on a HBK-IIC-A. Its not even mastered yet either... if thats 'buggy and not registering' then.. wow. lol.

[Pariah Devalis]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2015 - 04:43 AM, said:

Do you have any videos? I have no problems with PPCs that actually hit their target registering - its quite possible to shoot through the armpit or between the legs of an enemy mech with them, but thats not a problem with the weapon, it just means you missed. Ill admit that i dont always see my PPC bolts connect with the target, because im normally back behind cover or twisted by the time it hits (because thats the entire point of using them), but most games my ending damage is where i would expect it to be, and ive just recently had a 2000 dmg game in CW using only 2 ERPPCs on a HBK-IIC-A. Its not even mastered yet either... if thats 'buggy and not registering' then.. wow. lol.

Only problem I can semi-regularly replicate that I know of is that chain fired C-ERPPC hitting the same component while the part is still flashing on the paper doll sometimes won't actually count every hit. That is to say, fire 2xERPPC at once and deal 20 damage to the component, but fire one back to back while the paper doll flashes and it might only do 10. It isn't 100% reproducible, however, and I suspect is just a general HSR bug that people are extremely sensitive to the failures of due to how much of an investment firing ERPPC are as far as your heat and sustainable firepower is.

If an AC5 no-regs you don't really pay too much attention or care, since the CD is fast and the heat low, but if that hot ERPPC no-regs, you're out on a lot of heat and sitting on a long cooldown.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 December 2015 - 04:47 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Pariah Devalis, on 23 December 2015 - 04:46 AM, said:

Only problem I can semi-regularly replicate that I know of is that chain fired C-ERPPC hitting the same component while the part is still flashing on the paper doll sometimes won't actually count every hit. That is to say, fire 2xERPPC at once and deal 20 damage to the component, but fire one back to back while the paper doll flashes and it might only do 10. It isn't 100% reproducible, however, and I suspect is just a general HSR bug that people are extremely sensitive to the failures of due to how much of an investment firing ERPPC are as far as your heat and sustainable firepower is.

If an AC5 no-regs you don't really pay too much attention or care, since the CD is fast and the heat low, but if that hot ERPPC no-regs, you're out on a lot of heat and sitting on a long cooldown.

Have you tried to replicate recently? There was a bug till not long ago with the hit feedback (red flash) where if the first flash had not completely finished, the second one would not activate (was very noticeable with the DRG-1N for example since every other shot failed to flash due to the incredible rate of fire). However in that case all dmg was still being done, it just felt off due to the feedback flash not working. That bug has been 'fixed' by a large decrease in the amount of time the flash lasts for.

[Pariah Devalis]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

Have you tried to replicate recently? There was a bug till not long ago with the hit feedback (red flash) where if the first flash had not completely finished, the second one would not activate (was very noticeable with the DRG-1N for example since every other shot failed to flash due to the incredible rate of fire). However in that case all dmg was still being done, it just felt off due to the feedback flash not working. That bug has been 'fixed' by a large decrease in the amount of time the flash lasts for.

I have not tried to replicate it lately. However, what I did also notice, and I am not going to say it is an ERPPC specific thing, is that sometimes the paper doll of your target won't update properly, but the damage is still being inflicted. Most prominent recent example was my 2xERPPC Gauss Rifle Warhawk. Had an EXE I was just beating on, and every time his paper doll flashed but barely took any damage on the doll. Suddenly he just imploded. I can only figure the damage I was doing was being applied, I just could not see it on my end.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 23 December 2015 - 05:12 AM.

[zudukai]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

Have you tried to replicate recently? There was a bug till not long ago with the hit feedback (red flash) where if the first flash had not completely finished, the second one would not activate (was very noticeable with the DRG-1N for example since every other shot failed to flash due to the incredible rate of fire). However in that case all dmg was still being done, it just felt off due to the feedback flash not working. That bug has been 'fixed' by a large decrease in the amount of time the flash lasts for.

Pariah Devalis, on 23 December 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

*snip* ...that sometimes the paper doll of your target won't update properly, but the damage is still being inflicted. ...damage I was doing was being applied, I just could not see it on my end. *snip*

i had it happen today, flew 2xC-ERPPC at a mech with ~5hp(darkest red) no armor CT, only to have the volley fly through and my ally SRM splat him to death, if i had better GFX i would record, but alas, my report is all i can really offer..

many many crosshair "no-tags" with the PPCs all night, cannot say if it were from volley or chain fire since i was using both as the situation demanded. paper-doll reg being pretty consistent, though only the one noteworthy no-reg today.

i can only speculate why, ping and FPS are not an issue as i usually have <30 ping and ~60 frames.

*edit* spelling

Edited by zudukai, 23 December 2015 - 06:08 AM.