482 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

So, as El Bandito pointed out, Russ is considering looking at MILD buffs to the PPC family to enhance use, and try to break the Laservomit Monopoly, but hopefully not replace it with a return to the PPC Meta.

So aside from better hit detection, what REALISTIC ideas do you have for making them more viable, but keeping in mind the razors edge they sit upon as potentially long range, PP-FLD weapons with no need of ammo?

And how to keep them somewhat distinctive?

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Inner Sphere PPC:
-Raise Speed to 1400 m/s
-Bring back the scaling minimum range with one change: scales to a minimum of 5 damage.

-So: DMG 10, Heat 10, Velocity 1400 m/s, Range 90*-540/1080
*see minimum range scaling

2) The Inners Sphere ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt.
-Increase Projectile Velocity to 1500 m/s

-So: DMG 10, Heat 14, Velocity 1500 m/s, Range 810/1620


3) The Clan ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt
-Remove splash damage, increase base projectile damage to 12.5 or 13 dmg
-Leave velocity the same, or mild boost. Possibly shorter range? Hits harder, weighs less, 1 crit smaller, needs a trade off

-So: DMG 12.5/13, Heat 14, Velocity 1200-1300 m/s, Range 750/1500*
*(or 810/1620 if that is too much a trade off, but without the extra projectile speed, of limited use at extreme ranges anyhow)


these ideas are based off of a discussion I am having with Pariah Devalis, to improve the PPCs without (hopefully) overpowering them, but to give each some distinctive characteristics. Basically, the IS PPC is coolest, the IS ER-PPC the best long range, and the C-ER-PPC hit the hardest. Considering Clan Mythos and fighting style being a little more down and dirty seemed to fit, plus Clans often complain they are at a brawling disadvantage, this gives a PP-FLD alternative to the C-LPL.

***No claims the ideas are "perfect as presented", numbers may need to be tweaked, other ideas explored (hence my asking you, the forums) and for a certainty, Quirks re-assessed. But the less reliant a weapon is on quirks to be viable, the better, IMO.

Thoughts?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 December 2015 - 12:05 PM.

[kapusta11]

Anything less than 30 FLD and enough projectile speed to support consistent accuracy will not work IMO.

[Pariah Devalis]

You know my thoughts on this. Most experienced clan pilots find the splash damage in c-ERPPC worthless. It becomes a matter of heat vs effective damage being a bad ratio right now. It's a problem both tech lines' have with the ERPPC. From a clan standpoint, I'd be fine with the heat tax if the pin point damage was worth it. As a vet, I played with IS tech for the vast majority of the game's lifespan, and those IS ERPPC were always a hair too hot to be with it, outside of that time they made then 13 heat and it was too cool for its damage. 14 seems like a nice middle ground between too hot at 15 and too cold at 13.

It has been so long since I've touched an IS standard PPC I'd just as well defer my thoughts on those to people with me recent experience with them.

[Gas Guzzler]

I support this!

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I can get behind these ideas.

I know I've pondered what would happen if the cERPPC was pushed up to 15 damage no splash but had it's ghost heat pushed to kicking in at 1 (or conversely lifting the IS limit to 3).

The IS PPC is salvageable on chassis with velocity quirks, so would we dial back the PPC velocity quirks in the process? I mean, as cool as it would be for the AWS-8Q to having PPCs screaming along at 2250m/s, I'd think that'd be hellacious balance.

[Gas Guzzler]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 December 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

I can get behind these ideas.

I know I've pondered what would happen if the cERPPC was pushed up to 15 damage no splash but had it's ghost heat pushed to kicking in at 1 (or conversely lifting the IS limit to 3).

The IS PPC is salvageable on chassis with velocity quirks, so would we dial back the PPC velocity quirks in the process? I mean, as cool as it would be for the AWS-8Q to having PPCs screaming along at 2250m/s, I'd think that'd be hellacious balance.

Would we really complain about an AWS meta for a short while though?

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 December 2015 - 12:01 PM, said:

I can get behind these ideas.

I know I've pondered what would happen if the cERPPC was pushed up to 15 damage no splash but had it's ghost heat pushed to kicking in at 1 (or conversely lifting the IS limit to 3).

The IS PPC is salvageable on chassis with velocity quirks, so would we dial back the PPC velocity quirks in the process? I mean, as cool as it would be for the AWS-8Q to having PPCs screaming along at 2250m/s, I'd think that'd be hellacious balance.

Yeah, toward the bottom of my wall of text was a comment about that. I want the weapons to be viable on their own, not because of Quirks, and as such, quirks would need a rework. Probably should highlight that.

But really, ho w hard is it to switch the 50% velocity boost to 20% in an HTML?

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 December 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Would we really complain about an AWS meta for a short while though?

I sure as hell wouldn't, but you know the regular whiners would.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 December 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Would we really complain about an AWS meta for a short while though?

with their low hardpoints? That thought would make the head of the average comp explode, lol.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Yeah, toward the bottom of my wall of text was a comment about that. I want the weapons to be viable on their own, not because of Quirks, and as such, quirks would need a rework. Probably should highlight that.

But really, ho w hard is it to switch the 50% velocity boost to 20% in an HTML?

Ah, I must have overlooked that, me bad. XML is ludicrously easy to edit, they should've been making balance tweaks every two weeks to be honest.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah, an AWS wouldn't be the meta if it all of a sudden had super accurate PPCs. The 9M would be a nice alternative to the BLR-1S on boreal though, for a little variety.

I would be more worried about the BJ-3. And by worried I mean I would be worried people would whine about it.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 December 2015 - 12:07 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

with their low hardpoints? That thought would make the head of the average comp explode, lol.

But wouldn't that be awesome?

[DrxAbstract]

There is only one solution to balance PPCs:

Replace them all with PPC Beacons and http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Heavy_NPPC, call it a day.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

with their low hardpoints? That thought would make the head of the average comp explode, lol.

Should I mention 3 PPCs have a ~33% chance to do that on their own?
No? Alright.

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 December 2015 - 12:05 PM, said:

Ah, I must have overlooked that, me bad. XML is ludicrously easy to edit, they should've been making balance tweaks every two weeks to be honest.

<QuirkList>
    <Quirk name="internalresist_ct_additive" value="25" />
    <Quirk name="internalresist_lt_additive" value="14" />
    <Quirk name="internalresist_rt_additive" value="14" />
    <Quirk name="isppc_heat_multiplier" value="-0.15" />
    <Quirk name="energy_heat_multiplier" value="-0.1" />
    <Quirk name="isppc_velocity_multiplier" value="0.5" />
    <Quirk name="energy_range_multiplier" value="0.2" />
    <Quirk name="energy_cooldown_multiplier" value="0.1" />
    <Quirk name="turnlerp_all_multiplier" value="0.25" />
    <Quirk name="torsospeed_yaw_multiplier" value="0.35" />
  </QuirkList>

"turnlerp" amuses me for some reason...lerp

This are in a .MDF file, with the rest of the mech characteristics (bones, rear torsi, components, hardpoints, etc...)

[0bsidion]

Well, like I said in the other PPC thread, I agree with Mcgral's ideas: across the board velocity increases and heat reduction. Although, I would also be OK with keeping the CERPPC heat as is if the splash was scrapped and it got full 15 PPLD.

Either way, the PPC family needs something because currently lasers are straight up better. PPCs might be PPFLD, but that doesn't amount to squat if it moves so slow you miss.

Lasers are hitscan, so unless you're just having a bad aim moment you're pretty much guaranteed to do damage every time you squeeze the trigger. Add in that lasers cost less heat, and it's really no wonder why it's practically all we see in the field.

I know most of you probably know all this but I just figured I'd rehash it as the framework for my reasoning.

[Juodas Varnas]

I like it

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Yeah, toward the bottom of my wall of text was a comment about that. I want the weapons to be viable on their own, not because of Quirks, and as such, quirks would need a rework. Probably should highlight that.

But really, ho w hard is it to switch the 50% velocity boost to 20% in an HTML?

It's a text tweak in the XML. Hardly difficult at all.

PPC

Buff back to 1500m/s or 1400m/s
Use same exponential curve that Clan LRMs use for min damage range @ 90m.

IS ERPPC

Buff to 2000 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14 or 13.5

Clan ERPPC

Buff to 1500 m/s
Heat Reduction from 15->14

Requirk all PPC quirks.

[RussianWolf]

until they add in the PPC effect to the HUD (spazzing out for a few seconds each time you are hit) they aren't really PPCs to me.

[Bishop Steiner]

0bsidion, on 17 December 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

Well, like I said in the other PPC thread, I agree with Mcgral's ideas: across the board velocity increases and heat reduction. Although, I would also be OK with keeping the CERPPC heat as is if the splash was scrapped and it got full 15 PPLD.

Either way, the PPC family needs something because currently lasers are straight up better. PPCs might be PPFLD, but that doesn't amount to squat if it moves so slow you miss.

Lasers are hitscan, so unless you're just having a bad aim moment you're pretty much guaranteed to do damage every time you squeeze the trigger. Add in that lasers cost less heat, and it's really no wonder why it's practically all we see in the field.

I know most of you probably know all this but I just figured I'd rehash it as the framework for my reasoning.

full 15 i think is too much without serious tradeoffs, which is why I gave a lower base damage. Especially if you want to boost speed and lower heat, too. In a F2P FPS, C-ERPPC cannot be better than the IS one, and especially as long as it has a minimum range the old "but IS has normal PPC option" saw really is poor reasoning.

That's why Parian and I are using an "equal but different" approach. Especially considering how fast the scale tips on a long range PP-FLD weapon.

[Big Tin Man]

To save PPC's, one must address gauss at the same time or else the DireMoo meta will re-emerge

All PPC speed 1400 m/s minumum
IS PPC scaled min damage below 90m, down to 2 dmg @ 0m.

A mech may only fire a maximum combination of 3 PPC's or PPC+Gauss at once (i.e. 3 PPC's, 2 PPC + Gauss, PPC + 2 gauss), Firing all 3 will trigger cooldown for all PPC's and gauss's on the mech if you fire 3 of these at once. I know, ghost mechanics suck but nobody wants the 3ppc 2gauss DWF meta back. The DWF situation must be addressed in any solution.

I'd also like a PPC hit to slightly scramble the hud of the target for the duration of the ecm breaking effect.