72 replies to this topic

[Mahpsy]

As I'm sure most of you know if you take LRM's on a light mech they really don't have a roll, because of the tonnage, face time, ammo, maintaining target lock, etc. more so for IS mechs than clan. But I had an pretty rough idea to make LRM's more viable but not exploitable.

P.s. This is to just get the idea across.

For starters lets say we have a Raven who wants to run missiles. Typically light mechs just want to poke, move, poke, while exposing your self as little as possible so I propose LRM weapon specific quirks unique to weight class and variant.

So the Raven decides to run ML and 2 LRM 5's, to make LRM's not dead weight allow light mechs to fire LRM's without having to maintain your cursor on the box.

This change could also be applicable to higher weight class mechs(especially the missile variants) but to avoid another LRM apocalypse this new target retention is primarily for light mechs.

Please feel free to add to this idea because I would love to see light mechs be viable with LRM builds!

TL;DR Allow Lights and missile variant mechs to fire without maintaining your cursor on a target.

[Scratx]

... No, that's not the reason why LRMs on light mechs is basically dead.

It's because you can't get a decent amount of heavy enough launchers and ammunition to feed them to make it worth bringing. Especially when you take into account there is this thing called ECM and AMS that also interfere with using that weapon system which typically requires additional equipment (and thus tonnage) to defeat.

Target tracking/locking ends up being a minor issue in comparison.

[sycocys]

2 LRM5's is less scary than 2 MGs honestly.

[Barantor]

Scratx, on 13 December 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

... No, that's not the reason why LRMs on light mechs is basically dead.

It's because you can't get a decent amount of heavy enough launchers and ammunition to feed them to make it worth bringing. Especially when you take into account there is this thing called ECM and AMS that also interfere with using that weapon system which typically requires additional equipment (and thus tonnage) to defeat.

Target tracking/locking ends up being a minor issue in comparison.

Yeah and every time you make them do enough damage to be worth bringing everyone and their mother screams 'lurmpocalpyse' and it gets nerfed again.

[TercieI]

sycocys, on 13 December 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

2 LRM5's is less scary than 2 MGs honestly.

Only because it wastes more tonnage for the same (that is, no) effect.

[Mahpsy]

Scratx, on 13 December 2015 - 11:18 AM, said:

... No, that's not the reason why LRMs on light mechs is basically dead.

It's because you can't get a decent amount of heavy enough launchers and ammunition to feed them to make it worth bringing. Especially when you take into account there is this thing called ECM and AMS that also interfere with using that weapon system which typically requires additional equipment (and thus tonnage) to defeat.

Target tracking/locking ends up being a minor issue in comparison.

But your missing the point. LRM's on lights once tweaked properly will be a low damage poke indirect fire poke which I believe this game can use sorely. Take this for example.

1 lance of mechs has ECM and lasor meta builds death balling around the map counting on the quick TTK. Meanwhile the other lance similarly geared also has LRM lights, not only is the light mech looking for a vantage point but is punishing the group for grouping to hard. The more they stay clumped the more they get punished until they deal with the LRM light.

So even if the light mech has trouble getting the initial lock under ECM, once the lock is gained lets say 8 seconds of maintained lock is gained as a reward so your free to be as annoying as possible to distract the death ball since they wont know where the missiles are coming from. (adding quality of life changes not DPS)

If I can pull 600 damage in my LRM Myst Linx then I believe that this theory holds some ground.

[Vickinator]

LRMS on lights.........did hell freeze over?

[Karl Marlow]

I have a lot fix with dual lrm20s. Plus a tag and medium lasers. It works but there isn't much point in it in quickplay.

[Wrathful Scythe]

LRMs on lights suck.... nonetheless, I will run my IIC Jenner with 6 lrm5 launcher a few times just to piss some people off.

[Ted Wayz]

Not a fan of missiles on lights. Lurms have one of the lowest damage per shot (even given the recent changes) and you really need to carry 6 tons plus for a lurm boat to be effective as a lurm boat. Note: you can get by with less than 6 tons if just using them as suppresion fire, but if it is your main dps the 6 tons or more is usually best.

With the changes in SRMs maybe use those and your speed for close support or harassment?

[Khobai]

LRMs are horrible anyway, since they nerfed their cooldowns into the ground.

5.5s cooldown for a LRM20 is outrageous. Thats WAY too long. What was PGI thinking?

Thats like 3.6 dps for a weapon that weighs 10 friggin tons plus at least another 3-4 tons for ammo. Thats laughably bad given the fact LRMs are still hard countered by ECM too.

Edited by Khobai, 13 December 2015 - 12:26 PM.

[adamts01]

LRMs do suck, for starters. Bit I frequently run them for fun.

LRM quirks on lights would be cool, and could never be OP. I'm all for it. Alternatives to laser boats are always good.

The adder actually LRMs incredibly well.

Assault LRM boats are the biggest waste of tonnage and have a special place in hell.

[Ted Wayz]

adamts01, on 13 December 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Assault LRM boats are the biggest waste of tonnage and have a special place in hell.

Without a role agreed. Mediums and heavies have the speed to re-position and support properly. But if there was mode that involved point control and an assault could sit back and make it rain, then it could actually be viable.

But in this shooter we have no roles.

[adamts01]

Ted Wayz, on 13 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Without a role agreed.

Great point.
There's no doubt that assaults can make it rain pain worse than anything else. No question about it. But, in solo que, there's a 4 in 5 chance they're going to get out damaged by a Mist Lynx. Slow boats need spotters to be consistent.

[Johny Rocket]

Oxide 4 lrm5 5t ammo big engine. Stay in the pack for cover and spank whatever your assaults are looking at. 4 lrm5 produce the never ending explosion and screen shake people hate so much. Its Derp, 1st fast light that finds you eats your lunch.

You want to lurm in something fast ish pick up a KTO 18 5x lrm5 can carry 9t ammo and an erll or a GRF 2N 4x lrm5 erll or 2 mpl. HBK 4J 2 lrm10 on steroids.

[Scratx]

Ragingdemon, on 13 December 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

But your missing the point. LRM's on lights once tweaked properly will be a low damage poke indirect fire poke which I believe this game can use sorely. Take this for example.

1 lance of mechs has ECM and lasor meta builds death balling around the map counting on the quick TTK. Meanwhile the other lance similarly geared also has LRM lights, not only is the light mech looking for a vantage point but is punishing the group for grouping to hard. The more they stay clumped the more they get punished until they deal with the LRM light.

So even if the light mech has trouble getting the initial lock under ECM, once the lock is gained lets say 8 seconds of maintained lock is gained as a reward so your free to be as annoying as possible to distract the death ball since they wont know where the missiles are coming from. (adding quality of life changes not DPS)

If I can pull 600 damage in my LRM Myst Linx then I believe that this theory holds some ground.

*facepalms* Okay, you're still missing the point. But first, let me point something out.

I've once done over 900 damage in a match with a Locust 3M (pre-quirks, even). Locust's a fun mech but despite this awesome match, I don't consider it a good mech. So, just because you can pull 600 damage in an LRM Myst Linx doesn't mean it's a good build for the mech, or that the mech is any good. It is anedoctal evidence.

As for your example... are they in open freaking plains or something and the light mech a freaking ninja? Seriously? The example literally depends on the heavy mech deathball being idiots of completely ignoring the incoming fire, neither seeking cover nor destroying/scaring off the spotters. It also depends on there not being even a single AMS in those 4 mechs. A single AMS will shave the LRM light salvos easily in half or more. God help you if they have two AMS amongst themselves or they have a single Kit Fox AMS build escort. Nothing gets through in that case.

Must I point out how unlikely this scenario is? Versus the universal truth of "Spot mech, shoot lazors in the face"? And in the meantime, if it's Lance vs Lance, I'm putting the money on the one that doesn't have a light mech hobbling itself with a lock-on required, spread damage everywhere sandblaster weapon that doesn't even work right at short range.

Look, LRMs are fine on something like a Catapult. I have a CPLT-C1(F). I wreck face with it. Lotsa funs. But... it's 2xLRM15. That's practically the minimum loadout you want in anything that relies on LRMs for its main damage output. You want to have enough throw-weight to get through any AMS shield and still deal significant damage. Light mechs can't provide this throw-weight and have decent ammo plus maybe any backup weapons. And active probe and/or TAG is also pretty much required (for rather obvious reasons).

Light mechs with LRMs are practically non-existent for good reason. You might find them in tier 5 because newbies don't know better but as you go up, it gets less and less useful.

One final thing... the unspoken but hinted at problem with LRMs? It does good damage numbers (if you're managing to land them) but it is deceptive damage. It spreads all over the target. It's not just not pinpoint, it's anti-pinpoint by definition. Lasers on the other hand? You can dump them all in the same section for quick kills or crippling. Same with autocannons (except easier), PPCs and Gauss. Damage that doesn't help towards killing is dead weight.

Still, if it's fun for you, go ahead and shoot people up with LRMs in light mechs. Nobody's stopping you.

[MauttyKoray]

Khobai, on 13 December 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

LRMs are horrible anyway, since they nerfed their cooldowns into the ground.

5.5s cooldown for a LRM20 is outrageous. Thats WAY too long. What was PGI thinking?

Thats like 3.6 dps for a weapon that weighs 10 friggin tons plus at least another 3-4 tons for ammo. Thats laughably bad given the fact LRMs are still hard countered by ECM too.

Why they didn't include the ECM fix I have no idea, but the 'jesus box' needs to be seriously done away with and the only reason I can think of is that they want to include the mech profile detection as well.

[Mahpsy]

Scratx, on 13 December 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

*facepalms* Okay, you're still missing the point. But first, let me point something out.

I've once done over 900 damage in a match with a Locust 3M (pre-quirks, even). Locust's a fun mech but despite this awesome match, I don't consider it a good mech. So, just because you can pull 600 damage in an LRM Myst Linx doesn't mean it's a good build for the mech, or that the mech is any good. It is anedoctal evidence.

As for your example... are they in open freaking plains or something and the light mech a freaking ninja? Seriously? The example literally depends on the heavy mech deathball being idiots of completely ignoring the incoming fire, neither seeking cover nor destroying/scaring off the spotters. It also depends on there not being even a single AMS in those 4 mechs. A single AMS will shave the LRM light salvos easily in half or more. God help you if they have two AMS amongst themselves or they have a single Kit Fox AMS build escort. Nothing gets through in that case.

Must I point out how unlikely this scenario is? Versus the universal truth of "Spot mech, shoot lazors in the face"? And in the meantime, if it's Lance vs Lance, I'm putting the money on the one that doesn't have a light mech hobbling itself with a lock-on required, spread damage everywhere sandblaster weapon that doesn't even work right at short range.

Look, LRMs are fine on something like a Catapult. I have a CPLT-C1(F). I wreck face with it. Lotsa funs. But... it's 2xLRM15. That's practically the minimum loadout you want in anything that relies on LRMs for its main damage output. You want to have enough throw-weight to get through any AMS shield and still deal significant damage. Light mechs can't provide this throw-weight and have decent ammo plus maybe any backup weapons. And active probe and/or TAG is also pretty much required (for rather obvious reasons).

Light mechs with LRMs are practically non-existent for good reason. You might find them in tier 5 because newbies don't know better but as you go up, it gets less and less useful.

One final thing... the unspoken but hinted at problem with LRMs? It does good damage numbers (if you're managing to land them) but it is deceptive damage. It spreads all over the target. It's not just not pinpoint, it's anti-pinpoint by definition. Lasers on the other hand? You can dump them all in the same section for quick kills or crippling. Same with autocannons (except easier), PPCs and Gauss. Damage that doesn't help towards killing is dead weight.

Still, if it's fun for you, go ahead and shoot people up with LRMs in light mechs. Nobody's stopping you.

You say I'm missing the point, but the subject of the thread is to help make LRM's have a place in the game, but people still run out going


LRM's on lights are/can be fun, so whats wrong with trying to give an under-performing weapon a spot in the game. Might as well remove them from the game with that logic along with flamers(because they're bad).

[Pjwned]

Not every weapon is suitable for every mech, and just like how huge ballistics don't tend to go on light mechs that also includes LRMs on said light mechs.

We don't need to make crazy adjustments so that light mechs can be long range pea shooters.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

IS lights? Nope. Not by a long shot. LRM launchers are way too heavy for the tonnage. Even with a cut-down engine size, you'd get at most 17-18 tons of free tonnage after engine, reduced armor and ES/FF on a RVN-3L. The Oxide may be able to pull it off with 4 LRM5, but even that is a very suboptimal outcome. OXIDE LRM5x4

Clan lights? Definitely possible.

See the LurmFox KFX-D LRM40 and the LurmBadder ADR-D LRM40

But the LRMfox is rather wasted due to the fact that you can just go ASRM24 in a SplatFox and lay waste to everything with your 48 damage alpha. It's amazingly powerful for a light.

Edited by ArcturusWolf, 13 December 2015 - 04:04 PM.