30 replies to this topic

[name51875]

Huntsman, on 05 December 2011 - 09:30 AM, said:

Recently I started a table top game based on a game system I'm in the process of developing. Before doing so, I gave some thought to making combat more realistic. In many game system in fact, armor allows the wearer to avoid damage rather than absorb it. Even in Mechwarrior games however, armor just seems to simplistically add extra hitpoints/absorb more damage.

The following is an excerpt from the beta version of my own players handbook for the game I'm creating. Obviously you'll note it's not written for the Battletech universe, but it should provide with a good idea of my thoughts on the matter.

Do you feel this is a more realistic ballistics vs armor system, and would it translate well into a mechwarrior PC game?

Armor Rating (AR): Effectiveness of a barrier or armor in providing protection from incoming fire
0....no protection
1...protects against non-magnum, non-AP rounds
2...protects against handgun rounds including .50 and .357 magnum
3...protects against all handgun rounds including .44 magnum
4...protects against semi-AP rifle rounds up to 4.6, 5.56, and 5.7 ammo
5...protects against semi-AP rifle rounds up to 6.8 and 7.62
6...protects against AP rifle rounds up to .338 Lapua Magnum
7...protects against .50 BMG
8...protects against small bore cannon fire
9...protects against medium bore cannon fire
10...protects against large bore cannon fire

Examples of Each AR:
0: drywall
1: type 2a vest
2: type 2 vest
3: type 3A vest
4: type 3 vest (ceramic plates)
5: concrete, brick wall, technical vehicle, M5 armor
6: type 4 vest (ceramic plates)
7: light armored vehicle (Hummer)
8: APC or other moderately armored vehicle
9: fighting vehicle armor (Bradley)
10: main battle tank armor (Abrams)

Ballistic Rating (BR): Effectiveness of a projectile in overcoming a barrier or armor
1: non-magnum, non-.50 handgun ammo
2: .50 and .357 hangun ammo
3: .44 magnum hangun ammo
4: 4.6, 5.7, 5.56
5: 6.8 and 7.62
6: .338 Lapua magnum
7: .50 BMG
8: 20mm cannon
9: 40 mm cannon
10: 120 mm cannon

• If the BR exceeds the AR, the projectile completely defeats the armor, and the AR is reduced by 1.
• If the BR is = to the AR, the armor withstands the attack, and only half damage is dealt to the wearer, but there is a cumulative 10% chance the armor is damaged, and the AR reduced by 1.
• If the BR is 1 point less than the AR, ¼ damage is dealt to the target with a cumulative 10% change the armor is damaged, and the AR reduced by 1
• If the BR is 2 points less than the AR, no damage is dealt to the wearer, but there is a cumulative 10% chance the AR is reduced by 1.
• If the BR is 3 points or more less than the AR, no damage is done to the armor, nor its wearer

You forgot to remember there's energy weapons in MWO mate, not just projectile weapons

Edited by Viper Centurion, 05 December 2011 - 10:36 PM.

[Conradiqlous]

This is all fine and dandy, but as long as a machine gun doesn't harm my Atlas I'll be okay.

[EDMW CSN]

I vote no. Simply put that it makes assaults and heavies far too durable.
If your Atlas dies because my locust fired my MGs and med lasers to your rear and detonating your LRM ammo, it is your fault for letting me get behind for an easy kill.

It is hard enough to be a good light player / medium player, don't make it any worse.

[Bob Marley]

[EDMW]CSN, on 05 December 2011 - 11:49 PM, said:

I vote no. Simply put that it makes assaults and heavies far too durable.
If your Atlas dies because my locust fired my MGs and med lasers to your rear and detonating your LRM ammo, it is your fault for letting me get behind for an easy kill.

It is hard enough to be a good light player / medium player, don't make it any worse.

I agree absolutely - every 'mech should be a threat to every other 'mech. I really don't want to see a WoT type armour system where often lighter machines can only spot enemies rather than contribute to the fight.

[AlanEsh]

TheRulesLawyer, on 05 December 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

#1 reason never to touch a penetration based model- It will make light mechs useless.

I don't want to do WoT's "Bigger always wins" mechanic over again. Realistic and not fun.

How is 20 points of damage hitting 10 points of armor covering 8 points of internal structure any "better" for light mechs? Or are you assuming damage beyond the armor points doesn't go anywhere?

[Strum Wealh]

SaintofVirtue, on 05 December 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

For what it is worth here's my two cents. Keep in mind that I don't know nearly as much as you guys on this subject.

Armor should have hit point values that are depleted to represent various chunks getting blown off.
However I wouldn't mind a damage modifier (Which I do believe is somewhat in place), or a piercing value which if exceeded inflicts some direct damage on the "hull" making it possible to ruin a part without actually punching through the armor.

As an example. A Madcat has equipped fairly decent anti-ballistic armor. When fired at by light weapons like machine guns. The damage taken is reduced due to a type advantage by the armor. If enough shots are poured into it though the armor will eventually break allowing the part to be damaged/destroyed.
Now suppose the same Madcat is hit by a Heavy Gauss cannon. The armor will absorb some of the hit but not all of it. In fact the shot is so powerful that it still maintains enough power and penetration to deal "direct" damage to the inner workings of the part hit. It won't flat out destroy it but several shots with high armor piercing abilities may eventually wreck the part and leave part of the armor intact. Obviously this is an extreme case. In all likelihood the armor will give before the hull but penetrating hits might cause some damage to the inner workings and maybe damage something that would require in game repairs.

I think it would add another dimension to the game, choosing your armor and what it blocks. Also an option would be no armor for the smaller mechs, this would play into their fast abilities. Make us use the weight allowance carefully with heavier armor types, with the trade off of less firepower or speed.

This would allow smaller mechs to eventually wear down the larger ones, since the large ones with lots of armor can't hit the small targets due to speed, Because of this it would almost force medium mechs to be brought to counter the fast light mechs. It would make each size viable in certain circumstances and against other types. A bit like this little chart with the less than inferring that the greater type can destroy (Eventually in the light vs assault) the other. Light<Medium<Heavy<Assault< light mechs

Obviously there will be some wiggle room due to weapon load outs and other factors. A fast medium for example might be quick enough to outdo an assault. Or an assault might be able to wing the light mech. But this set up would make the different sizes viable and encourage good clan organization and deployment.

Anyways... My two cents.

The thing about that is that a lot of the advanced armors come into being later in the canon timeline:
Armored Components - developed by the Free Worlds League in 3059-3061
Ferro-Lamellor Armor - developed by Clan Snow Raven in 3070
Heavy FF Armor - developed by the Lyran Alliance in 3069
Laser Reflective/"Glazed"/"Reflec" Armor - developed by the Lyran Alliance in 3058 (copied by Clan Jade Falcon in 3061)
Light FF Armor - developed by the Free Worlds League in 3067
Reactive/"Blazer" Armor - developed by the Draconis Combine in 3063 (copied by Clan Ghost Bear in 3065)
Stealth Armor - developed by the Capellan Confederation in 3063

The armor types that were developed prior to the game's start point are:
Ferro-Fibrous Armor - reintroduced to the IS by the Draconis Combine in 3040 (the Clans never lost the FF tech from 2571)
Hardened Armor - developed by the Federated Commonwealth in 3045-3047 (copied by Clan Ghost Bear during the invasion)
Primitive Armor - the original BattleMech armor used on the Mackie in 2439; essentially modern (non-Chobham) tank armor
Standard Armor - developed by the Terran Hegemony in 2470; maintained by IS and Clans since

Then there're the Commercial- and Industrial-grade armors...

Depending on how closely the Devs stick to the canon timeline, fancy armors are not going to be around for a while.

Edited by Strum Wealh, 06 December 2011 - 08:22 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Huntsman, on 05 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

As far as Mechwarrior, light mechs are naturally inferior in combat. They should be. A good light pilot can beat a bad assault, but the role of lights is recon. They bear their teeth only in either a support role to larger allies, or if their backs are against a wall.

Also, light mechs use the same weapons as their heavier units, just less of them so they shouldn't experience less armor penetration. In fact, this could create variables in the game where there's the same basic kind of armor but perhaps different quailities exist of that type...maybe one plating from a certain company is better than another. Some light armor might be a better quality than an assault's armor even though the assault armor is thicker depending on how its constructed. Since the math is done behind the scenes in a PC game, there's no need for simplicity. It isn't going to bog the game down. More depth just adds to the richness of the game.

They are inferior, yes. A penetration based model would make many of them useless. Its not a fun thing to play a mech that has zero chance of damaging larger unit. Also it would allow heavy units to completely ignore lighter units. It would create an immediate rush to the heaviest armored units in the game and mounting only the largest weapons. WoT did this and it sucks.

[AlanEsh]

TheRulesLawyer, on 06 December 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:

They are inferior, yes. A penetration based model would make many of them useless. Its not a fun thing to play a mech that has zero chance of damaging larger unit. Also it would allow heavy units to completely ignore lighter units. It would create an immediate rush to the heaviest armored units in the game and mounting only the largest weapons. WoT did this and it sucks.

Don't you think they could get past the WoT model by doing a combo penetration/ablation model? Seems viable to allow non-penetrating hits to degrade the target's armor in the impacted area. Also special rounds can be AP, but maybe limit those to smaller, higher velocity weapons, thus favoring the lights, or at least not favoring the fatties.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Angelicon, on 13 December 2011 - 12:00 PM, said:

Don't you think they could get past the WoT model by doing a combo penetration/ablation model? Seems viable to allow non-penetrating hits to degrade the target's armor in the impacted area. Also special rounds can be AP, but maybe limit those to smaller, higher velocity weapons, thus favoring the lights, or at least not favoring the fatties.

There are AP munitions in canon. Why not just include those rather than mess up the balance? Pretty much any penetration model even combo models will favor larger mech and larger guns. If anything lighter mechs tend to need a buff in the transition from TT to real time because the movement mod of a fast mech is never adequately respresented.

[MaddMaxx]

Tracking Penetration would be a nightmare for a Pilot. You would have to use a RNG to simulate the To Crit chance that TT has. Otherwise how is a pilot to know when a particular piece of enemy armor is at a point such that a Pen. hit will be successful? You don't know? Just keep shooting at an area and hope?

Better to just stick with shoot the CT until he or you dies. At least it is a good solid indicator...

Unless of course, the Electronics in the cockpit gives me a real-time numerical damage model of all and every Mech I target with my reticule, on the fly. Having that would be cool but it would seem a bit much to expect.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 13 December 2011 - 12:31 PM.

[Gorith]

why not just keep the CBT and MW system of Weapon does X damage to your armor?

an armor rating like what your talking about feels more like it punishes the player for not running the most heavily armored mech he can find. And I believe the devs stated they wanted to make all the weight classes useful. Also why so that that mercury goes from standing a slight chance against your heavily damaged atlas to standing no chance?