227 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Roadkill, on 22 December 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

You've greatly oversimplified this in order to make it the "more common" scenario. I do see the scenario you've described, but it's far from the most common one.

The reality is that there's a wide spectrum of "faffing about" for all weight classes. Taking 10 seconds to check your weapon groups, get oriented, and then get moving is not "faffing about" and if that's what causes a whale to get left behind it is 100% the group's fault.

The most common scenario is that a couple of fast Mechs (either lights or mediums) drop and get moving quickly without saying anything. The rest of the team then follows the "leaders" without saying anything. 30 seconds in the assaults are being left behind whether they got moving immediately or not. Sometimes someone speaks up... but most times not. By the 1-minute mark the team is committed, and if the NASCAR continues the assaults are hosed.

But the NASCAR doesn't always continue at first contact. And sometimes when someone speaks up early enough, the team will react appropriately.

Best way to prevent it? As soon as you drop - whether you dropped in an assault or not - locate the assaults and call out their drop location both on comms and in chat. "Assaults dropped far left, moving to assist." Or "Assaults dropped in B2, converging on them." It almost always works as long as you do it quickly enough.

At this point I’ve run everything up to (but not including) my CP1 Whales. I just refuse to tolerate the Whale’s…Whale-ness. That said, I do make a good go of trying to figure out how to make Executioners work, and I actively enjoy my Warhawks.

Following my own advice of get the hizzell going when one spawns, I cannot rightly recall a time when I’ve been abandoned the way assault pilots so frequently claim they’ve been. As a matter of fact, I often find myself leading the charge in my Warhawks. Warhawks which no longer even manage to break seventy, and which do not benefit from the Sexecutioner’s jump jets.

They may not be as Whale-ish as a Whale, but in this day and age not-quite-seventy is pretty sluggish. How is it I can manage to consistently keep up with a team in a not-quite-seventy Warhawk if it’s such a foregone conclusion that assaults get abandoned?

I’m not entirely disagreeing with you, Roadkill. I simply refuse to accept that it is Always And Entirely the fast-mover’s fault, the way every whinging assault pilot who comes on the forums to repost this thread always claims. Even your example up there pins the blame squarely on those first couple of fast-movers who actually have their s*** together, not the Whales who know for a fact that they’re slow as Whales and yet still don’t take the time to fidget with their groups in Testing Grounds or jam their throttles on the moment their feet hit dirt.

I’ve seen Whale pilots who manage to stick with the group just fine. I also refuse to sacrifice the edge in mobility I gain from a lighter machine so I can anchor myself to a Dire Whale and ensure he arrives at the battlefield intact – simply three minutes late, with half the team dead and my own machine in tatters, because he couldn’t figure out whether to go left or right.

If you can’t read a battle, think two minutes ahead, and maneuver to where you know you’re going to need to be in those two minutes, you have no business driving a Whale. Every other assault ‘Mech in the game can either snag a larger engine and keep up better or comes with one stock. People want to kvetch out the fastbros for “not adapting your playstyle to better protect us!” Well, maybe you shoulda oughta figure out if the Whale is the right ride for you before making demands.

If you’re not up for making the ‘Mech work, you can absolutely still pilot it. Everybody’s got to learn sometime. But you don’t really get to make demands and chain the fastbros down to 60kph so you can feel better about being fat. You get fifty tons of guns to make up for your fatness. What do the fastbros get in exchange for cutting their throttles in half to cover your fat self?

[Khereg]

Gas Guzzler, on 22 December 2015 - 09:44 AM, said:

Some of you are forgetting how terrible the assault lance spawn is on some maps.

Let's just get this out there: On Frozen City Skirmish, if your team spawns on the B-line side (http://mwo.smurfy-ne...rozencity&m=tdm) and everyone does not move to B4 immediately, your assaults are toast (assuming they walk up out of jenner alley the way they do 90+% of the time).

Edited by Khereg, 22 December 2015 - 10:15 AM.

[Rhaythe]

Prosperity Park, on 22 December 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Please, tell me how to upgrade the engine in a Clan omni Assault so it won't get left behind when the team runs off without it. Is there a DireWolf-equippable 475XL engine that I am not aware of?

No, but there is a required sense of battle awareness that goes along with piloting a sluggish whale. If a player repeatedly finds himself left behind in MWO and killed by himself, then I seriously doubt the blame entirely falls upon the team.

It does seem that some assault-only pilots have a very tangible sense of entitlement around these parts. Thus, threads like these are quite common.

Psst - you are not special because you chose to launch in a 100-ton slug.

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 22 December 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

The first few posts in this thread are hilarious.

Opens with "Don't blame me for failing to read a map just because my Mech is slow."
Then, "Get a bigger engine." (Which is impossible for omni's, BTW)
Then "Assault pilots are whiney children"
Then "Getting left behind means death, so don't get yourself left behind."

There is not only much disdain for Assault Pilots around here, but also gross ignorance about game mechanics and logic.

Please, tell me how to upgrade the engine in a Clan omni Assault so it won't get left behind when the team runs off without it. Is there a DireWolf-equippable 475XL engine that I am not aware of?


*facepalm*

Well, just as all things PUGLife, choosing to run a Direwhale is a decision. All decisions have consequences. There is a reason I only use my DWFs in group play. Experience and common sense tells me PUGs are gonna run away. Yelling and forum posting, sadly won't change that. If you can't calmly and politely get them to slow down or come back in game (and often you can't) it is what it is.

So you plan accordingly. Bring a Warhawk, Executioner, or ANY Assault Mech capable of breaking 60 kph in the PUG queue.

"But I have the right to drive whatever I want!!!"

Yes, yes you do.

And the other guys have the right to play how they want,. also, counterproductive or not.

Because the flip side is how many times have teams lost the upper platform on HPG, the Mountaintop on Alpine, etc, waiting for a bunch of Fatties to catch up? And a lot of fatties also mill around and waste time beginning of the match (not saying the OP does, but it's pretty bloody common).

So, while I get the OPs frustration, the reality is the frustration can go both ways.

Solo Queue is the most chaotic, flexible arena of play. Bringing the most tactically inflexible options to the table might not be the best choice to begin with, no matter how many guns it has.
(I notice the OP also takes issue with Jenner IICs in one of my Topics...a mech that is laughably easy to splat...unless one is in a DWF or similarly slow mech.... then they can be murder)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 December 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Mystere]

Morggo, on 22 December 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

@Mystere - I partly get your point and the history behind it too.

That said, since it has now become ingrained as part of the game for casual gamers I guess I'm not quite there on removing it. Augmenting the game with a new option I'm down with. More choice makes a richer game imho.

Only issue I see with ONLY Solaris and no solo PUGlandia would be - unless I'm not "getting it" - is it's more of a 1v1 arena thing isn't it? I really like the larger matchups, but may not want to do a full fledged unit CW drop run on a given night. That's my point I guess.

Ideally, Solaris should have team vs. team and last-person-standing. So the PUG queue does not really disappear. Those fillers will just be finally disposed of.

Dead and buried.

Burned to ash and cast into the wind.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 22 December 2015 - 10:00 AM, said:

My fellow Clanners cannot take a 57% disadvantage?



Besides, 4-mech lances(gasp!) in a Clan company(gasp!!) just does not sit well with me. It is one of those things that makes this alleged "Battletech" game still a "minimally viable product". And I am sure I am not the only one in thinking so.

I'm not gonna go over all the reasons why it's a horrible idea

But you gotta sacrifice some of the lore for a good game. (pretty stupid lore, IMO... what invasion force would ever purposely gimp themselves? nobody, that's who.) That was fluff made up to justify the OPness of the mechs in the table game. BT has built in power creep on an insane level so you gotta combat that somehow.

Perfectly happy with balance as it is now. Anyways, what does any of that have to do with assaults being left behind?


Also, why do people want to get rid of the solo queue? It's fun in there mostly.

Edited by cSand, 22 December 2015 - 10:24 AM.

[Tyler Valentine]

Piney, on 22 December 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

It sucks when the team leaves you high and dry for light bait as they drag race from spawn.

This happened to me the other night, i was in a Dire and and there was no way i could keep up when the team NASCAR'd off. Sure enough the whole freakin' light lance showed up and toasted me. Some dude actually got on the comms and blamed me for not staying with the group... uh... okay lol!

[Roadkill]

1453 R, on 22 December 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, Roadkill. I simply refuse to accept that it is Always And Entirely the fast-mover's fault, the way every whinging assault pilot who comes on the forums to repost this thread always claims. Even your example up there pins the blame squarely on those first couple of fast-movers who actually have their s*** together, not the Whales who know for a fact that they're slow as Whales and yet still don't take the time to fidget with their groups in Testing Grounds or jam their throttles on the moment their feet hit dirt.

Oh, I'm not completely disagreeing with you either. Sometimes it's the whale's fault and sometimes it's the group's fault. But I also don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to hit the ground running. 10 seconds is reasonable, especially with the random whacko spawns that PGI has on some maps where you're facing the wrong direction. I need to hit B to check the map and get oriented on basically every map now.

The problem with the "fast movers who actually have their s*** together" as you put it, is that they really don't. If the whales spawn left and the fast movers spawn right, there is literally nothing the whales can do if the fast movers take off and NASCAR, which means that the fast movers didn't have their s*** together because they weren't paying attention. That's why I recommend that EVERYONE immediately check to see where the assaults are and point it out in chat. Or better yet, group up on the assaults and then go from there.

[Mystere]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

I'm not gonna go over all the reasons why it's a horrible idea

And you're entitled to your opinion.

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

But you gotta sacrifice some of the lore for a good game...

That's like saying it's perfectly alright for a game to have a Marian Roman legion composed of Hastati, Principe, and Triaii in 55AD.

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

(pretty stupid lore, IMO... what invasion force would ever purposely gimp themselves? nobody, that's who.)

Alexander the Great would like to have a word with you.

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

That was fluff made up to justify the OPness of the mechs in the table game. BT has built in power creep on an insane level so you gotta combat that somehow.

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Perfectly happy with balance as it is now. Anyways, what does any of that have to do with assaults being left behind?

Nothing, absolutely nothing. But it was a reply to comments about respawns -- which also has nothing to do with assaults being left behind.

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 10:22 AM, said:

Also, why do people want to get rid of the solo queue? It's fun in there mostly.

Purposefully-built Solaris mode > Closed Beta filler game modes rebadged as "main game features" for a minimally viable product

[Piney II]

When I drive a fattie, I'm moving as soon as the mech powers up. In PUGs, sometimes that doesn't work when your lance is leaving you in the dust to fend for your own.

I've never understood the mentality of leaving the assaults behind. These are the mechs that bring the serious hurt and allowing them to die before they can get into effective position is a serious disservice to the team as a whole.

[MeiSooHaityu]

10 vs 12 would be a fine idea if this was the sort of game where 1 player controlled 10 mechs and another player controlled 12. Something like TT, an RTS, or maybe the new Battletech game under development (although it is pre-clan).

When it is a game like MWO where 12 random individuals fight against 10 other random individuals, things can get pretty messed up pretty fast. Match maker, disconnects, troll builds, etc... play havoc as is when teams are even, now introduce it to intentional lopsided teams.

10 vs 12 may work ok in a perfect world, but when the team that brings 10 has one guy run off, another disco, and maybe a guy running all flamers, then it is now 12 vs 7. ugh.

I suppose the same could be said for 12 vs 12, but at least teams start even. A team with 10 players feels a disco worse than a team with 12 players (even if the team with 10 players is more powerful).

I just think uneven teams is a bad idea.

Maybe uneven teams would be ok in private matches where both teams can agree on superior clan tech. That would be the only way I could see this being a decent idea.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 22 December 2015 - 10:50 AM.

[1453 R]

Roadkill, on 22 December 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

Oh, I'm not completely disagreeing with you either. Sometimes it's the whale's fault and sometimes it's the group's fault. But I also don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to hit the ground running. 10 seconds is reasonable, especially with the random whacko spawns that PGI has on some maps where you're facing the wrong direction. I need to hit B to check the map and get oriented on basically every map now.

The problem with the "fast movers who actually have their s*** together" as you put it, is that they really don't. If the whales spawn left and the fast movers spawn right, there is literally nothing the whales can do if the fast movers take off and NASCAR, which means that the fast movers didn't have their s*** together because they weren't paying attention. That's why I recommend that EVERYONE immediately check to see where the assaults are and point it out in chat. Or better yet, group up on the assaults and then go from there.

I suppose that’s part of what baffles me so much. I tend to prefer mediums, fast heavies, and a healthy dose of ‘combat lights’ (one of my current favorites is a categorically insane Jenner IIC on a 255cXL, with near-max jets, six cSRM-4s and enough ammo to actually use them. My JIIC(O) makes no damn sense but also scores better than my Cheetahs and is a blast to run). The 100-120kph bracket is where I like to be, I’m a pretty fastbro-oriented guy.

As a fastbro, my first instinct on spawn is always, always, always to move towards the center. Find the center lance and regroup on them, pray to Bob the other wing is doing the same. I’ve worked to get my map-up-and-reorient time down to ~5 seconds absolute maximum before I’m moving, mostly because it’s my active goal to get moving before the rest of my lance does and drag them by the nose to where they’re supposed to be.

I don’t understand the fastbros who go tearing off in some random direction any more than I understand fatbros who faff and diddle for half a minute before getting underway. What do you think you’re going to accomplish in a lone JIIC or Wolfhound, zorching towards engagement with what is usually a full lance of the enemy by your lonesome?

Anyways. Mostly, I suppose, my point is that as has been stated previously, assault pilots who frequently find themselves abandoned might want to examine their own actions and/or choices of rides. I’m a no-account talentless scrub-nub loser down here in T4 Sh!* P!l0t L@nd, a realm populated primarily by baboons, kid sisters, Bejeweled players, and some very, very confused Google search bots, and I can still keep up with my team every single time I set out in a not-quite-70 ‘Mech like my Warhawks or Executioners. I watch Whale pilots keep up with the team all the time.

if one insists on piloting a Dire Whale, then gets ‘abandoned’ in every match, one might have to admit that it is not, in fact, the exclusive fault of literally every other player in MWO.

Edited by 1453 R, 22 December 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 22 December 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

Purposefully-built Solaris mode > Closed Beta filler game modes rebadged as "main game features" for a minimally viable product

Oh yea, I'd love to see that too. Been wanting that since the start.

But, no need to scrap what is there now. It is still a good time. i don't personally feel it is minimally viable. This game's a blast. Every game has a few tards in it but so does everything else in life (ask me about my job, lol!)

Edited by cSand, 22 December 2015 - 10:53 AM.

[Morggo]

Since we're drifting on and off topic and it was brought up earlier... Just how much DO I have to pay the drop ship pilot to hit the jets a few seconds longer and not.. drop me the middle of nowhere...

PGI needs to send their drop ship pilots back to cadet school

[Leone]

I 'unno, I don't really have this problem in CW.

~Leone.

[RussianWolf]

Mystere, on 22 December 2015 - 10:04 AM, said:

The rationale, well mine anyway, is that the pure soloists will tend to go to Solaris, while the new players will stick to the Training Academy until they feel they are ready. The casuals, on the other hand, will have to decide.

Besides, the public queues are supposed to have been just fillers. But very sadly, they have in many ways become "the game". I want to put an end to that "fillers are now main features of the game" silliness.

"That was their thinking at the time"

Russ, I think has come to realize that the pug queues are what the majority of the player base wants in comparison to the CW queue. Numbers speak louder than claims.

Now, they could easily rename the pug queues "Solaris" and add in a FFA mode and be done with it. I'm hoping for a bit more. Converting the group queue from a 12v12 to a more variable team size. 4v4, 8v8, 6v6, etc. And maybe 4+4+4v4+4+4 or 4v4v4v4v4v4. But what do I know.

If you are banking on CW ever being the main driver of this game, I think you are setting yourself up for disappointment. I think you are in the minority, and the minority don't pay enough of the bills.

[AntiCitizenJuan]

I think a lot of it comes down to the teams situational awareness.
I play mostly Assault Mechs (MAL, AWS) and I'm often only a stones throw away from the team whenever I do get jumped by fast movers. I always ask for help using voice chat and most of the time someone comes and helps out. I know how to fight Lights in an Assault.

But sometimes it is the teams fault but people wont acknowledge it.

All the Assault player can do is move at the most direct angle to where the team is or where the team is going.
A major problem being when Assaults are dropped far from the combat line and when teams NASCAR around the poorly designed maps from CB, leaving behind their teams firepower in an attempt on a flank.

I still say that makes up the majority of the problems in terms of Assaults being left to die, and I've been saying that for literal years now.

Edited by AntiCitizenJuan, 22 December 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Mystere]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

Oh yea, I'd love to see that too. Been wanting that since the start.

But, no need to scrap what is there now. It is still a good time. i don't personally feel it is minimally viable. This game's a blast. Every game has a few tards in it but so does everything else in life (ask me about my job, lol!)

But it's not really getting scrapped. It's getting a make-up, lipstick, glamorous hairdo, and a custom-fit dress all done by professionals.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 22 December 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

But it's not really getting scrapped. It's getting a make-up, lipstick, glamorous hairdo, and a custom-fit dress all done by professionals.

[Roadkill]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Never has your .sig been more appropriate.