62 replies to this topic

[Kshahdoo]

So I've bought both of this mechs and asked myself, why Jaguar being 10 tonns lighter, has a better load, than Wolf?

No jumps? Yeah. Less armor? Yeah, but above all - engine. Wolf's engine is 7 tonns heavier. And now an interesting fact: this engine gives Wolf the same speed as Jaguar's, but only 3 tonns of load. I mean, really? You get 2 levels better engine for 3 freaking tonns of load? It's ********. No point of any engine, which gives 7 useless and only 3 useful tonns. It's not the way these things work. Any company throws away an engineer who designs such an engine.

Edited by Kshahdoo, 27 December 2015 - 03:06 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

Lol, it's even more stupid. With the same armor as Jaguar and no jumpjets Wolf has the same load. I mean, we have two mechs with the same speed, armor and load, but one is 10 tonns heavier than the other. Has it been done on purpose?

Edited by Kshahdoo, 27 December 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[Moonraven83]

You aren't familiar with the battletech-franchise, are you?

About the engine: the bigger something is the bigger the engine must be if both have to move
at the same speed, even in RL.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

It's a holdover from the tabletop game. There, a mech's engine rating could only be a multiple of its tonnage, and that multiple gave you its cruising speed in hexes-per-turn.

So, a TBR had a 375-rated engine to give it a cruising speed of 5 hexes and a run speed of 7 per turn (a hex being 30m across and a turn being 10 seconds long gives you the stock speeds of the mechs, too). The EBJ only needs a 325-rated engine to move at the same speed, and is a much lighter engine.

Part of the advantage the Clans had over the IS in that game was the fact that their mechs were almost all one hex faster than the equivalent IS chassis in a given class. Because their XL engines weren't a death sentence in the case of a lost torso, they could get away with it. However, when you have assaults like the Gargoyle built to keep up with the heavies, you run into the multiple-rule again in a very bad way. Because it's an 80-tonner, you need a 400 engine to get that 5/7 profile, and eats massively into its available load. Next step down would be 320, for a 4/6 profile, but would have given you so much more pod space to use.

[Koniving]

Ebon Jaguar has only 384 armor (192 in Battletech) and the Timber Wolf has 460 (230 in battletech).

These values on Omnimechs are supposed to be non-changeable, period. Thus the Timber Wolf has superior armor. However PGI stated "We realize that this would not be good for the nature of our game."

Another thing to note is that Ebon Jaguar (Cauldron Born) is NOT supposed to have torso twist of ANY sort. The legs are mounted to the torso and there is no pelvis.

The proper advantage the Ebon Jaguar does have is its squat design, making the cockpit height at 8 meters when 'standing' and its shoulder weapons at just barely less than 10, making it fantastic for cover-based shooting, ambushes, and making it difficult to shoot from the front or side (which makes up for its 'width'). Being such a compact mech allows it to be more difficult to hit. It is also a weapons platform in exchange for its armor. In comparison, the Timber Wolf is supposed to be 12.6 meters tall (smaller than MWO's Hunchback).

Sadly PGI and its scales decided to 'harmonize' mech scales. The size difference would make great sense if the armor was locked as an allotment of space.

The actual canonical omnipod weight available is 27.x tons for the Timberwolf.
The canonical Omnipod weight available is 30 tons for the Ebon Jaguar.

The Timber Wolf's engine rating is 50 units above the Ebon Jaguar, necessary for the much heavier Timber Wolf to obtain the same speeds. Much like you can't put a car engine in a semi and expect it to do any good.

The speed a TBR would have with the Ebon Jaguar's 325 engine is: CLAN XL ENGINE 325 Speed 70.2 kph.

Fun, no?

[Kshahdoo]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 27 December 2015 - 04:35 AM, said:

It's a holdover from the tabletop game. There, a mech's engine rating could only be a multiple of its tonnage, and that multiple gave you its cruising speed in hexes-per-turn.

So, a TBR had a 375-rated engine to give it a cruising speed of 5 hexes and a run speed of 7 per turn (a hex being 30m across and a turn being 10 seconds long gives you the stock speeds of the mechs, too). The EBJ only needs a 325-rated engine to move at the same speed, and is a much lighter engine.

Part of the advantage the Clans had over the IS in that game was the fact that their mechs were almost all one hex faster than the equivalent IS chassis in a given class. Because their XL engines weren't a death sentence in the case of a lost torso, they could get away with it. However, when you have assaults like the Gargoyle built to keep up with the heavies, you run into the multiple-rule again in a very bad way. Because it's an 80-tonner, you need a 400 engine to get that 5/7 profile, and eats massively into its available load. Next step down would be 320, for a 4/6 profile, but would have given you so much more pod space to use.

Man, I don't know what way it's made in Battletech, but I'm sure it's not as in the game. I mean, they take 65 tonn Jaguar, add to it 10 tonns of more engine and get 75 tonn Timberwolf. Do you really think it's ok?

Koniving, on 27 December 2015 - 04:43 AM, said:

Ebon Jaguar has only 384 armor (192 in Battletech) and the Timber Wolf has 460 (230 in battletech).

Wrong, Jaguar has 422 armor.

Edited by Kshahdoo, 27 December 2015 - 04:47 AM.

[Moonraven83]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

Wrong, Jaguar has 422 armor.

Actually you are wrong. Koniving was revering to the stock-armor values not the max-armor.
Also every Mech ingame is a Mech from the tabletop-game. Every stock-loadout (including the
engine) is from tabletop.

Edited by Moonraven83, 27 December 2015 - 04:57 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 04:48 AM, said:

Man, I don't know what way it's made in Battletech, but I'm sure it's not as in the game. I mean, they take 65 tonn Jaguar, add to it 10 tonns of more engine and get 75 tonn Timberwolf. Do you really think it's ok?

It absolutely is the same. Look at a stock EBJ-Prime in-game or on Smurfy. Compare to this: http://www.solaris7....nfo.asp?ID=3291

[Kshahdoo]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 27 December 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

It absolutely is the same. Look at a stock EBJ-Prime in-game or on Smurfy. Compare to this: http://www.solaris7....nfo.asp?ID=3291

I don't mean just EJ, I mean EJ/TW balance.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 05:20 AM, said:

I don't mean just EJ, I mean EJ/TW balance.

The relationship between those two worked roughly the same way there, too. The EBJ was a more fragile and less versatile machine, but could carry a much more varied and heavy weapons load than the TBR. The TBR had the benefit of being in the sweet-spot for the heavy class - fast, heavily armoured, and weapons for any range and target. But making it go 81kph (to keep with the pack) instead of 64.8 meant that it paid for it in engine weight. If it had taken a 300 engine instead, it would have had a ludicrous amount of pod-space. I'm struggling to think of ways to use it, given the other fixed slots on a TBR.

I confess I don't quite see the problem here. There are different mechs for different things. You may use one or the other or both.

[Kshahdoo]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 27 December 2015 - 05:37 AM, said:

The relationship between those two worked roughly the same way there, too. The EBJ was a more fragile and less versatile machine, but could carry a much more varied and heavy weapons load than the TBR. The TBR had the benefit of being in the sweet-spot for the heavy class - fast, heavily armoured, and weapons for any range and target. But making it go 81kph (to keep with the pack) instead of 64.8 meant that it paid for it in engine weight. If it had taken a 300 engine instead, it would have had a ludicrous amount of pod-space. I'm struggling to think of ways to use it, given the other fixed slots on a TBR.

I confess I don't quite see the problem here. There are different mechs for different things. You may use one or the other or both.

Man, it's a 10 tonn heavier mech which has 10 tonn heavier engine. So you think it's ok?

[Modo44]

The TW has been the strongest heavy mech in the game since it was first introduced. It may not take quite as many heavy weapons as the Ebon Jaguar, but better cooling (internal heatsinks) means it can shoot more, high mobility means it can outflank almost any other heavy in the game, and it gets to do that at 75 tons, meaning considerably more armour than other Clan heavy mechs. If it was limited to a smaller engine, it would be as useful as the Orion, i.e. not really. For a good pilot, that is a weight cost worth paying.

Edited by Modo44, 27 December 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[Kshahdoo]

Modo44, on 27 December 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

The TW has been the strongest heavy mech in the game since it was first introduced. It may not take quite as many heavy weapons as the Ebon Jaguar, but better cooling (internal heatsinks) means it can shoot more, high mobility means it can outflank almost any other heavy in the game, and it gets to do that at 75 tons, meaning considerably more armour than other Clan heavy mechs. If it was limited to a smaller engine, it would be as useful as the Orion, i.e. not really. For a good pilot, that is a weight cost worth paying.

So you haven't seen any design logic contradiction, when 10 tonn heavier mech has 10 tonn heavier engine?

[Modo44]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 06:15 AM, said:

So you haven't seen any design logic contradiction, when 10 tonn heavier mech has 10 tonn heavier engine?

The TW has a higher rated engine to give it a decent speed at its higher tonnage. That is all there is to it.

Please remember that BattleTech (where MWO's mechanics come from) is a game system with lore sprinkled on top. Physics and logic only apply in a limited fashion. If you go that route, mechs could not even walk on soft ground because of that thing called "gravity".

[Kshahdoo]

Modo44, on 27 December 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

The TW has a higher rated engine to give it a decent speed at its higher tonnage. That is all there is to it.

Please remember that BattleTech (where MWO's mechanics come from) is a game system with lore sprinkled on top. Physics and logic only apply in a limited fashion. If you go that route, mechs could not even walk on soft ground because of that thing called "gravity".

I bet it's different in Battletech. I mean, the differenve between EJ and TW.

[B0oN]

Lol ...


Maximum density reached !
Critical structural integrity threshhold reached !
All personnel flee thread, critical amounts of "I-dont-care-how-it-works-I-just-want-it-to-work-like-I-think-it-should" detected !
/#dramabot off

Mate, it is what it is, and as long as it goes "PEW-PEW" and "DAKKA-DAKKA" and "LUUUUURRRMMMMM" it´s all fine for most of us, despite it´s partially hilariously open inconsistencies .

[Moonraven83]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

Man, it's a 10 tonn heavier mech which has 10 tonn heavier engine. So you think it's ok?

The Engine is "only" 7,5 tons heavier, the rest 2,5 tons come from the mech itself + 2 DHS in the Engine

[Modo44]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

I bet it's different in Battletech. I mean, the differenve between EJ and TW.

What do I win, noobie?
http://www.sarna.net...auldron-Born%29
http://www.sarna.net...f_%28Mad_Cat%29

[Moonraven83]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:

I bet it's different in Battletech. I mean, the differenve between EJ and TW.

Since most mechanics ingame (if not all) relate to battletech rules, nope. No real difference.

Edit: In battletech however it was a bit more difficult to change loadouts, especially for IS.
So mostly mechs rolled out in stock-loadouts and there is a difference between them.

Edited by Moonraven83, 27 December 2015 - 06:37 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Kshahdoo, on 27 December 2015 - 05:56 AM, said:

Man, it's a 10 tonn heavier mech which has 10 tonn heavier engine. So you think it's ok?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: You get the benefit in increased max armour/structure, and still move at the same speed and still carry an equivalent weapons load. As others have said, a bigger vehicle requires a bigger engine to move at a given speed.