169 replies to this topic

[Satan n stuff]

Greenduck, on 31 December 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Our IS unit is rather small at the moment at only around 110 players

Greenduck, on 31 December 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

small

Greenduck, on 31 December 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

110 players

Let that sink in for a moment.
Greenduck apparently thinks that being larger than the vast majority of units is "small".

[LupineShadow]

It's like that guy who drives around with a massively lifted diesel pickup truck with huge tires and light racks and gunracks and grill horns and...

"I'm sorry about your small p****"

[Sandpit]

Satan n stuff, on 01 January 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Let that sink in for a moment.
Greenduck apparently thinks that being larger than the vast majority of units is "small".

lol I missed that gem.
110 members is now small.
Try under 20 members sir. That's a lot closer to the average "small" unit

[Gas Guzzler]

Dawnstealer, on 31 December 2015 - 05:37 AM, said:

On to Strana Mechty! The Clan worlds are on there if you scroll north on the map.

WE'RE COMING FOR YOUR HOMEWORLDS*
























*at least until we lose the big merc units

TBH, in the future eventually there should be a Task Force Serpent event that lasts a couple weeks, allowing IS forces to push through to the homeworlds, or at least Huntress. That would be pretty nifty when we fast forward to that timeline, AND I might even get my Sunder by then

[RockmachinE]

Pika, on 31 December 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

We shall repeat this process until balanced is achieved.

Kinda like The Matrix.

Edited by Louis Brofist, 01 January 2016 - 01:13 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

Basically a lot of the clan units are just really annoyed and not willing to play CW at this point.

I can't say the balance was better before, but with the combined IS tonnage increase, durability buff, and other minor changes, organized clan units in CW can have a hard time even winning against an unorganized group of IS players.

I don't want things to tip quite as far back toward the previous balance, but either the durability buffs need another pass over (some of them are ridiculous like the BJ in combination with its laser quirks) or the tonnage needs to be readjusted.

I'm really looking forward to finding a balance between IS and Clans without making them generic copies of one another, but multiple changes to a game mode or mechanic is the cause of results like what we're seeing in CW right now.

The problem is far more than just CW though... Quirks are a big issue and need to really be taken out of the equation to balance the core mechanics/gameplay on the PTS before reapplying them to actually 'quirk' the mechs and make minor balance adjustments to chassis/variant performance, not use them as a basic balancing mechanic. Its how we've been getting into the messes we have with ridiculous ranges, damages, etc. in a lot of the instances we've had.

Still waiting for the non-meta Clan mechs to get some justice too... Would love to use my Summoner in CW but its really a poor use of the tonnage it takes.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 01 January 2016 - 01:55 PM.

[Revis Volek]

LupineShadow, on 31 December 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

Says the faction who only HAS 2 planets.

Says the factions who didnt have a faction until half the active population came to help it....

Where were you guys in Beat 1 and 2? Oh wait....Taken over by clans.

Satan n stuff, on 01 January 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Let that sink in for a moment.
Greenduck apparently thinks that being larger than the vast majority of units is "small".

To put this in perspective, the most players i have seen in the ENTIRE CW map at one time from one faction was about 300...

you are 1/3 of most factions sir...

[Weeny Machine]

Don't get me wrong: I play both, Clands and IS. So I am in neither camp really. However, when people always claim that Clans have the range advantage and then I saw this in CW (see picture) I wonder how this worked so well. Actually they should have been shot down from extreme range

Sidenote: Hooray again for Whack-a-mole Warrion Online: Peek-a-boo edition

Edited by Bush Hopper, 01 January 2016 - 02:49 PM.

[LupineShadow]

DarthRevis, on 01 January 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

Says the factions who didnt have a faction until half the active population came to help it....

Where were you guys in Beat 1 and 2? Oh wait....Taken over by clans.

Actually, we *were* the clans taking over. Hahahaha

[MauttyKoray]

Bush Hopper, on 01 January 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong: I play both, Clands and IS. So I am in neither camp really. However, when people always claim that Clans have the range advantage and then I saw this in CW (see picture) I wonder how this worked so well. Actually they should have been shot down from extreme range

Sidenote: Hooray again for Whack-a-mole Warrion Online: Peek-a-boo edition

An example of the problem of quirks. Its less so about the core balance, and more that with the added quirks, you can't even see the real IS vs Clan balance.

[MischiefSC]

I've said it before and I'll say it again -

If Clan players will only play when the mechanics favor them, then **** them. Every single one. Close Clan factions down or make them 'NPC' or whatever. The game works and plays just fine without them. Let them throw a fit, let them leave, let them do whatever. In no way, shape or form should game balance be required to be uneven (and let's be clear - that's what we're talking about) just to get one group to play.

Pug, group and CW between comp units, all telemetry shows that IS/Clan balance is overall in a better place than it's ever been. Now the underlying mechanics are still absolute ****. Quirks are a terrible, terribad and stupid way to balance the game but it's all PGI will use so that's what you get.

GIT GUD. IS Pugs are just better than Clan pugs. Clans bring LRMs all the time so they lose. Clans use bad loadouts. IS just has more good units right now and so coordinates better. Sound familiar?

Tonnage could be even. I'd actually recommend bringing the Clans *up* by 10 instead of IS down by 10. That'd benefit the Clans more as it would let them take 4x65, or 65/65/75/55, which is a solid Clan top-performer deck. With the best IS medium being 45 tons this lets the IS bring a couple Assaults and a couple Mediums that all perform well, along with a deck full of Thuds, giving them a better overall tactical mix over 4 drops.

[Weeny Machine]

MischiefSC, on 01 January 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

I've said it before and I'll say it again -

If Clan players will only play when the mechanics favor them, then **** them. Every single one. Close Clan factions down or make them 'NPC' or whatever. The game works and plays just fine without them. Let them throw a fit, let them leave, let them do whatever. In no way, shape or form should game balance be required to be uneven (and let's be clear - that's what we're talking about) just to get one group to play.

Pug, group and CW between comp units, all telemetry shows that IS/Clan balance is overall in a better place than it's ever been. Now the underlying mechanics are still absolute ****. Quirks are a terrible, terribad and stupid way to balance the game but it's all PGI will use so that's what you get.

GIT GUD. IS Pugs are just better than Clan pugs. Clans bring LRMs all the time so they lose. Clans use bad loadouts. IS just has more good units right now and so coordinates better. Sound familiar?

Tonnage could be even. I'd actually recommend bringing the Clans *up* by 10 instead of IS down by 10. That'd benefit the Clans more as it would let them take 4x65, or 65/65/75/55, which is a solid Clan top-performer deck. With the best IS medium being 45 tons this lets the IS bring a couple Assaults and a couple Mediums that all perform well, along with a deck full of Thuds, giving them a better overall tactical mix over 4 drops.

I agree with you: balance is most important and let them throw a fit. However, I am not sure if it was not a tad too much what IS got.

However, you won't change people. Actually it amuses me that those "hardcore pro units" suddenly end up on IS side where the grass is suddenly greener. Fits to the statement of Russ 2-3 months ago that data shows that those units try to avoid each other and also with my former online experience - those people (well, at least most of them. There are surly exceptions) do not look for a challenge but indulge in kicking pugs by getting every advantage possible. Well, this and of course when they are all on the same side they hardly risk fighting each other. Hardcore my arse hahaha

[MischiefSC]

I've played a lot of CW drops. A lot. I've played with and against all the 'hardcore' units, pugging or even sharing a TS.

Almost universally they were good, fun, cool people and I enjoyed it. When I see members of the 'hardcore' teams pugging in CW they are generally good, competent drop callers in chat who are understanding of the new players and helpful.

Competitive behavior though is competitive behavior. Competition isn't always about the pursuit of challenge but the pursuit of winning. It affects peoples choices. CW is a long, long way from a pro league where competitive teams test each other against competitive teams to see who has the largest, most handsome epeens. I don't think most competitive teams look at CW as a game-mode to test their skills in. They're there to get tags on worlds and wreck faces. Cut lose a bit. There's no MM to save people from them and that's very appealing in its way. Is there a council of hooded Unit leaders in a shadowy room discussing how to best farm pugs in CW and avoid each other? Of course not. However Clans have been OP for a long time and as such most units have been playing Clans almost exclusively for a long time and the recent 'balance' (quotes needed, see recent balance rants) was probably a good excuse for them to try IS for a while. The same motivation that affects one group is going to apply to others.

See, all the people who wanted to only play OP tech left IS for Clans a while ago. Now that the guarantee of an advantage just by dropping in your factions mechs is gone a lot of people are going to switch back to IS to try it back out for a while and the big units are going to reflect that impetus as a group, not as individuals. In time it'll flow back to a medium and we'll get more balanced populations. Is it intentionally trying to avoid each other? Yes/no/sorta. They're looking for where they're going to be most successful, win the most, earn the most per hour of playtime (CW is stupidly time/energy inefficient) and otherwise get to do what group queue doesn't allow.

You can't attribute to that a nefarious intent though it is a behavior problem the game promotes. Some sort of change to the mechanics of how groups are rewarded is a great idea. Make payout depend more on who you've beaten and you'll see that change a LOT. Have a 'value' assigned to win/loss overall (not just a % but averaged for total matches played so quantity and quality balance out) and then give bonuses to whoever is on the other side from them, win or lose. So playing AGAINST a team from either a really big or really successful unit pays better than stomping pugs. You break it down to a individual level so a 12man gives the full bonus, 6 man 1/2 the bonus, 1 pug from that team 1/12th the bonus.

Make sense? This would reward them for playing each other. THAT would do more to balance factions than just about anything else.

[Kraftwerkedup]

You know, its not so much that theyre jerks...its that after a few months of trying your *** off to win, and then winning, and you get a little cockpit item...its friggin boring and a waste of time.


This happened in WW2 Online. There were a few big units who moved the map, and after theyd easily roll one map and everyone would scream about balance, then theyd either sit the next one out, or switch sides. You dont GET anything for sticking with a side.

The only reason to play a game is "for fun".

Its not fun to do the same thing, over and over and over and over again for no rewards. Either ingame rewards, or a rewarding gameplay experience.

You might see "fair weather clanners"...I see a bunch of people who are bored to tears with PGIs incompetence.

Even if they didnt exist, CW would still be a **** show for a vast array of reasons that has nothing to do with 12 mans, or MS, or Kcom, or TCAF or whoever the hell is stomping people this week.

Like in WW2 online. There are no "strictly axis units". Mine, the 31st Wrecking Crew, had at one point almost 500 members. Everywhere we went was "the 31st highway". We won a map in 3 days once. Its a half scale model of Europe and we crossed the entire thing, in 3 days. It was basically impossible, so everyone thought we cheated or that CRS was terrible at designing a game.

Then next "round" after the map is reset...were bored. We went allied. Some farted around. Others took a break. So the allies win the next match in 4 months.

Then weve had our break, so we come back, organize, get 500 people behind us, roll the map in 2 weeks.

Ok well that was exhausting...break time...we go allied...

Allies win.

Back to axis.

Axis wins.

Back to allies.

Allies win.

The entire time CRS is stumbling over itself to try and figure out ways to effectively ban us from doing what we were doing. No link no cap rules, max squad count rules, never letting us be High Command. Forcing objectives on us.

Eventually we took our ball and went to other games, and WW2Online died a horrible death, losing 80% of its staff, both its founders, and continues to this day as F2P model just to get the bodies it needs to justify the 200 people who still sub to it.

We killed it, because they refused to figure out that we werent trolling them on purpose...they had a **** system to begin with. We didnt exploit it, we just ruled it.

This is EXACTLY what youre seeing here.

You see it in EVE too. And thats persistent.

People want to win, people want to be on the winning team. When you see people like the 31st, or DeathSquad, The Goons, Mittani, etc, in any game, theyre going to attract people, and numbers are the single most important aspect to any conflict in any game, ever. Period.

When they try, theyre going to win. Every single time. But trying gets old. It IS a game after all. So when these massive groups of great dedicated players "goof off" youre going to see them effect the map the same way as before...just its going to be more hilarious.

The worst thing a developer can do, is curb them doing these things. You have to not suck your *** off and designing systems, and design a system that numbers ARENT the most effective thing, in the bloody first place.

Retroactively "nerfing" someones experience because youre a failure, is only going to drive them, and their MASSIVE roll call of players, away permanently.

If they do say "screw the massive units" I hope Russ and Paul like the canadian version of food stamps. Because thats what happened to Goeff Evans and his CRS partner.

Edited by Kraftwerkedup, 01 January 2016 - 04:43 PM.

[wanderer]

What'll happen?

Clans will be restricted to attacking one planet near their "capital" and defending other factions as usual, much like the IS would be if the same happened.

As long as the system encourages overloading one faction to swamp opponents, it'll keep happening.

[Lightfoot]

Clan tech needs better functionality. Inner Sphere tech may be heavier, but it works. Most notable is the difference between Clan and Inner Sphere LRMs, I.S. LRMs hit in a single clump and destroy mech sections while Clan LRMs land in a stream and spatter the mech all over doing area damage. Same with Clan UAC's, but the UAC's do definite damage so they are usable.

Then you add in that the Inner Sphere mechs are all on buff-out and the Clan mechs get nothing or worse like the IIc's paper armor and you see the pattern pretty plainly.

MWO's problem has always been mechs that get killed too fast. It ruins the experience and feeling of piloting a walking tank. Inner Sphere got the structure and armor buffs that all the mechs actually need for quality gameplay. So for quality gameplay and quality weaponry you pick Inner Sphere right now. For laser-vomit-only mechs you pick Clan.

On the horizon we have CW about to support Merc Units, player and otherwise. Merc Units are always ranked against each other and offer the best RP options. Your Merc unit will one way or another be ranked against all the others. That's competition and competition for planetary assets in some form. In 3052 Merc units only use Inner Sphere mechs. It all becomes that perfect storm.

[Celtic Warrior]

Sandpit, on 31 December 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

90%
I'd like to see the statistical data on that
90% win rate would be pretty phenomenal So you win 9 out of every 10 games right?

OK maybe I could have said that differently, 90% of the drops I've been on and I usually drop with 12. I was not claiming SWOL has a 90% win rate.

[demoyn]

Pika, on 31 December 2015 - 05:15 AM, said:

It's hard to say what is causing the imbalance, too.

No it's not. Everyone knows exactly what the problem with CW is.... except for PGI. It's an imbalance of player / unit skill, and there's no amount of mech quirk changes or heat sink nerfs that can change that.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I cant wait for the divided queue. The tears will be epic

[GRiPSViGiL]

PGI caused this because players will always use the most OP mechs and loadouts. The quirk system is illogical and has dug a huge hole in terms of achieving any balance.

I don't think they will ever get Balance proper in terms of IS vs Clan so players will game that first and foremost. Even if they get CW meaningful and not a pointless waste of time it is and always has been the players will ruin it by gaming the system of OP mechs and weapons.