949 replies to this topic

[Almond Brown]

Hotthedd, on 11 January 2016 - 12:01 PM, said:

I think the best thing to do would be to give the solo queue advocates exactly what they are asking for...

..since there is absolutely no way to stop 12 players from the same unit selecting the same planet and hitting launch at the same time. Heck, why not just make CW solo queue ONLY? Problem fixed.

...Right?

Permanently?, or just on a Trial basis? And to be Fair. It is not just the Solo's wanting a Solo Queue. Don't be fooled. It appears many "Teams/Groups want quite badly to be rid of the "blight", poorly perceived as it is, that are the "New/Bad and or just Solo" players who are apparently "ruining personal their game mode" for them.

Thus, when and if this "segregation" happens and they then discover that CW, without these players, is likely dead in the water, then maybe they would wish a chance to redact said "segregation" and be more open to other alternative solution beyond just kicking folks off their "Bus..."

[Almond Brown]

Johnny Z, on 11 January 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

I don't think that's a good idea. But it would work, as opposed to premade groups only and the entire game shutting down. Tell me I'm wrong.

I'm all for open queue like it is now with more realism to naturally curb many of the problems. Repair and rearm economy added for starters. This way the accounts taking falls to fix matches and be farmed easily couldn't do it for long as just one aspect of such a system. More realism is awesome to and sim improvements and game play depth of course. Its likely already on the way to being added anyway. It was in before in a basic form.

Adding Repair and Rearm economy for the reason you stated will not fix anything either. Those who do it will just take turns and the whole thing is a wash. As stated many many times. R&R while all cool and stuff is just a TAX and the poor, which always makes it a "poor tax".

[Aelos03]

Sandpit, on 11 January 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

pretty much sums it up

It's strange how even though they're making these ridiculous claims of "but think of the new players" the ones we see complaining about this are old players.
Interesting dynamic if you ask me.

The new players showing up on Marik TS aren't saying these things.

So it leads me to wonder, exactly who are the "altruistic" players really trying to help? It's definitely not new players, since I rarely, if ever, see any of those jumping up and down about "protecting new players" from the "big bad premade boogeyman" posting in new player threads asking for help
posting guides
posting factual information to help new players find information they need
getting in faction chat and helping direct their faction's new players to good beginner info and offering tips

or anything else that would actually help new players and solo players trying to learn how to "get better" in CW and such. Meanwhile, those of us in the "evil premades" are doing everything I just listed quite more commonly.

So tell me again, who has the community's, MWO's, new players', and CW's best interest at heart and who are the ones simply stomping around looking to spread blatant misinformation that confuses and hurts new player chances at being mroe competitive?

Seriously, feel free to check post histories and such. New players and low tier players asking for assistance are very rarely helped by anyone (based on the threads I see anyhow) in this thread jumping up and down about "helping improve CW and NPE"

Keep on doing what you guys are doing though, meanwhile the rest of us are watching our units, TS servers, and communities thrive and grow.

I agree and people that help new players most are units. Actually joining a unit is probably best thing new player can do. But I don't think CW has issue with newbie players it is about imbalance between 12man drops and randoms. Having cancer spawn points is ******** in game like this since this is not unreal tournament. Spawn camping can happen in randoms vs randoms game since it doesn't take much for one side to overpower other due to mech balance. See how all this imblance can created ****** environment to play in.

Saying its war deal with is not a valid excuse and it is obvious that there is an issue with it and it should be addressed. CW should be fun game mode to play and not farm simulator.

[Mystere]

Aelos03, on 12 January 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

I agree and people that help new players most are units. Actually joining a unit is probably best thing new player can do. But I don't think CW has issue with newbie players it is about imbalance between 12man drops and randoms. Having cancer spawn points is ******** in game like this since this is not unreal tournament. Spawn camping can happen in randoms vs randoms game since it doesn't take much for one side to overpower other due to mech balance. See how all this imblance can created ****** environment to play in.

Saying its war deal with is not a valid excuse and it is obvious that there is an issue with it and it should be addressed. CW should be fun game mode to play and not farm simulator.

Here's a thought. Why not suggest a solution to the spawn camping "problem" that does not involve invulnerability based on magic or overly-powerful drop ships and drop zone defenses? Because so far after 46 pages and counting I have seen nothing, nada, zip, zilch.

As for "farming", instead of demanding player separation, why not suggest some innovative game modes designed to soften the blow instead for new/inexperienced players. Alternatively, suggest a "training course" for the Training Academy.

Those would be better discussions than merely saying that spawn camping should not happen or demanding that solo players must be totally segregated from units in CW.

You see a problem? Then propose a reasonable solution in the context of CW being a quasi-simulation of war and not an eSport.

Edited by Mystere, 12 January 2016 - 08:50 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Kin3ticX, on 11 January 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

how about that CW trial executioner? good thing it has an ER small laser to "round it out"

Well instead of trying to be all "snarky", why not petition PGI to create a "separate SET of CW Champs" that are ALL "Meta Builds" with full top of the line Modules that Match up with Mech based Quirks etc etc.

That way, at least those poor New Players, that are ruining CW with their ugly Solo selves, would get to see what it is they are facing, Match after Match as they get Spawned camped to death...

[Hotthedd]

Almond Brown, on 12 January 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Permanently?, or just on a Trial basis? And to be Fair. It is not just the Solo's wanting a Solo Queue. Don't be fooled. It appears many "Teams/Groups want quite badly to be rid of the "blight", poorly perceived as it is, that are the "New/Bad and or just Solo" players who are apparently "ruining personal their game mode" for them.

Thus, when and if this "segregation" happens and they then discover that CW, without these players, is likely dead in the water, then maybe they would wish a chance to redact said "segregation" and be more open to other alternative solution beyond just kicking folks off their "Bus..."

I'm relatively certain it would be temporary in any case, once the solo players find out that even in the solo queue, they will still be facing large pre-mades, as there is no way to prevent sync-dropping when a team knows they will all be on the same side and same planet.

Mystere, on 12 January 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Here's a thought. Why not suggest a solution to the spawn camping "problem" that does not involve invulnerability based on magic or overly-powerful drop ships and drop zone defenses? Because so far after 46 pages and counting I have seen nothing, nada, zip, zilch.

As for "farming", instead of demanding player separation, why not suggest some innovative game modes designed to soften the blow instead for new/inexperienced players. Alternatively, suggest a "training course" for the Training Academy.

Those would be better discussions than merely saying that spawn camping should not happen or demanding that solo players must be totally segregated from units in CW.

You see a problem? Then propose a reasonable solution in the context of CW being a quasi-simulation of war and not an eSport.

Dynamic campaign mode?
4 progressive rounds each determined by the outcome of the previous round, with certain rounds promoting info warfare/scouting?
No re-spawns = no spawn camping.

Almond Brown, on 12 January 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

Adding Repair and Rearm economy for the reason you stated will not fix anything either. Those who do it will just take turns and the whole thing is a wash. As stated many many times. R&R while all cool and stuff is just a TAX and the poor, which always makes it a "poor tax".

"R&R = tax" was Vassago Rain's favorite argument against R&R.

Calling it a tax makes you look like you have never taken an economics course.

[Azzgaroth]

MischiefSC, on 07 January 2016 - 01:20 AM, said:

Fen Tetsudo, your arguments are all totally spurious. It's a strawman. If you need a 'show me on the Atlas doll where the bad 12man touched you' moment you need to do it on your own time. The biggest issue in CW is the lack of purpose, no the lack of a matchmaker. The existence of a matchmaker kills CW as anything but another pug/group queue game mode.

Big bad 12 man premade touched is Azz for sure.... Prowly without lube...

[MrJeffers]

Hotthedd, on 12 January 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

"R&R = tax" was Vassago Rain's favorite argument against R&R.

Calling it a tax makes you look like you have never taken an economics course.

But calling it a tax isn't really disingenuous because effectively that is the result. In any match played it has some c-bill siphon that lowers your earnings, be that damage repair, ammo, or consumables. The first two being in place in R&R, the latter we have now but it's optional.
R&R isn't optional. The issue becomes that people who lost matches not only earn less C-Bills, but they also end up with a much larger R&R bill because their mech was in most cases more damaged or destroyed than the victors. It's a double whammy and becomes a larger and larger drain as they are unable to repair, and are more likely to then lose again because their mech is entering damaged or with low ammo, or they get free repairs because they are broke but are still at a C-Bill deficit to upgrade their equipment or use consumables to increase their chances of winning.

Edited by MrJeffers, 12 January 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Aelos03]

Mystere, on 12 January 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Here's a thought. Why not suggest a solution to the spawn camping "problem" that does not involve invulnerability based on magic or overly-powerful drop ships and drop zone defenses? Because so far after 46 pages and counting I have seen nothing, nada, zip, zilch.

As for "farming", instead of demanding player separation, why not suggest some innovative game modes designed to soften the blow instead for new/inexperienced players. Alternatively, suggest a "training course" for the Training Academy.

Those would be better discussions than merely saying that spawn camping should not happen or demanding that solo players must be totally segregated from units in CW.

You see a problem? Then propose a reasonable solution in the context of CW being a quasi-simulation of war and not an eSport.

I can suggest but it doesn't matter I don't have voice in this matter anyway. Solution is easy to come up with because it is that simple.

First we must separate 12man drops from others period because from game design point of view it is just ******** to mix them. I would remove spawn points altogether because it just doesn't make sense in game like this, point is to protect that one mech and play accordingly. But if you have to have it I would use unreal tournament system where players spawn as far as possible to where enemies are located. Adding very large maps should make spawn camping not viable.

I always imagined CW to be huge battlefield with lots of mechs doing all kinds of objectives. It wouldn't be some mode it would be real warfare where mechs go long distances to do stuff(Imagine how speed of mechs factors in that). It would be serious as much as you want it to be. Something like this opens up so much options but no we have to be so short sighted.

[pwnface]

Fen Tetsudo, on 12 January 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

Funny how you guys continue to pretend the complaints are about seal clubbing when they are really about spawncamping newbies in trial mechs. The new players expect to get stomped and don't mind, what they hate is waiting 20 mins to drop only to have their 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped. They just want to play out the game.

Try on another excuse. That one makes you look fat. And dishonest.

Actually that is your complaint, plenty of other people in this thread have been complaining about seal clubbing. There is plenty of discussion about splitting the queues going on. In reality spawn camping is a result of great imbalances between two teams. You can't fix spawn camping as long as there are spawns.

None of this has anything to do with my statement about the average PUG player being far from competitive.

If you did less QQing on the forums and more getting good, maybe there would be less topics like this one.

Edited by pwnface, 12 January 2016 - 10:06 AM.

[Mead]

Round and round we go

[pwnface]

Aelos03, on 12 January 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

I can suggest but it doesn't matter I don't have voice in this matter anyway. Solution is easy to come up with because it is that simple.

First we must separate 12man drops from others period because from game design point of view it is just ******** to mix them. I would remove spawn points altogether because it just doesn't make sense in game like this, point is to protect that one mech and play accordingly. But if you have to have it I would use unreal tournament system where players spawn as far as possible to where enemies are located. Adding very large maps should make spawn camping not viable.

Your "easy solution" actually sucks.

You want to remove 12mans from CW, great. What about 11mans or 10mans? Should we just split the queue into solo and groups? What's preventing a 12 man from queueing together as solos and doing exactly what they are doing currently? Nothing. Having random respawns makes the game mode team deathmatch and would make for a terrible CW experience. Imagine the rage people would have when getting instantly obliterated because they were dropped in to the middle of the map rather than a safe spawn point with dropships guarding it. Imagine the complaints when people lose because they couldn't defend objectives when the dropship decided to drop them randomly in the farthest corner from the base they are supposed to be defending. This makes no sense and are terrible, poorly thought out ideas.

But yeah, "easy solutions".

[MischiefSC]

I've seen spawn camping plenty of times in pug on pug teams.

One of the big struggles people seem to have with this game is the natural byproduct of 12 v 12 matches with the sort of maps we have.

Also the introduction of deathray dropships has introduced reverse-spawn camping on counter-attack. The common tactic now is to get ahead on kills and retreat to your dropzone to exploit the firepower of your dropships.

Honestly? We need to eliminate 'counter-attack' as a game-mode. It all needs to be attack or defend. Objective always needs to be Omega. Dropzones need to provide no good cover to camp in but be safe to spawn in; I'd say make them underground and have you come up a ramp. Something along those lines. Attackers get dropships, defenders come out of a fortification.

There is no 'magic' to joining a unit. If you're interested in GIT GUD you can try to get a competitive-focused team to recruit you but assuming that just joining a unit is going to make you better is a false assumption. You have to want to train up to get good and you need to find a group of people that can help with that. You can also join a very casual unit that won't have that kind of focus and that's okay too, just understand that's not going to help you get tons better at the game.

So much misinformation here. So much pretendy fun time games. There is no magic associated with dropping in a premade unit. The only 'magic' is in communicating with your team, focusing fire and everyone on your team being focused on winning. That doesn't require you all to share tags, it just requires you all not to be puzzies.

[Aelos03]

pwnface, on 12 January 2016 - 10:18 AM, said:

Your "easy solution" actually sucks.

You want to remove 12mans from CW, great. What about 11mans or 10mans? Should we just split the queue into solo and groups? What's preventing a 12 man from queueing together as solos and doing exactly what they are doing currently? Nothing. Having random respawns makes the game mode team deathmatch and would make for a terrible CW experience. Imagine the rage people would have when getting instantly obliterated because they were dropped in to the middle of the map rather than a safe spawn point with dropships guarding it. Imagine the complaints when people lose because they couldn't defend objectives when the dropship decided to drop them randomly in the farthest corner from the base they are supposed to be defending. This makes no sense and are terrible, poorly thought out ideas.

But yeah, "easy solutions".

You misunderstand maybe it is my fault for bad wording.

No it wouldn't remove 12 man drops they will get to fight only other 12 man drops that is it. Well if there is 10,11,5,6 people matchmaker will try to find same number of people for other side if not 10+2 vs 8+4 is still damn better then 12 vs all random. If gap is to big match won't be made until proper match is found. I don't see problem with this.

As I said I don't like having spawn points at all but only solution is that and you would never be spawned in unsafe spot that is the whole point of my idea. Well if you can't get objective at least you will be able to reorganize because all mechs that get destroyed spawn there far away from enemy. Otherwise you are stuck with magic defence to create you safe spot which doesn't solve anything.

[Almond Brown]

Hotthedd, on 12 January 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

I'm relatively certain it would be temporary in any case, once the solo players find out that even in the solo queue, they will still be facing large pre-mades, as there is no way to prevent sync-dropping when a team knows they will all be on the same side and same planet.

Dynamic campaign mode?
4 progressive rounds each determined by the outcome of the previous round, with certain rounds promoting info warfare/scouting?
No re-spawns = no spawn camping.

"R&R = tax" was Vassago Rain's favorite argument against R&R.

Calling it a tax makes you look like you have never taken an economics course.

What is this "economics" you speak of. I be playing a video game over here...

[Kin3ticX]

I tried playing "Clanwars" last night and it wasnt exactly dead

[Almond Brown]

MrJeffers, on 12 January 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

But calling it a tax isn't really disingenuous because effectively that is the result. In any match played it has some c-bill siphon that lowers your earnings, be that damage repair, ammo, or consumables. The first two being in place in R&R, the latter we have now but it's optional.
R&R isn't optional. The issue becomes that people who lost matches not only earn less C-Bills, but they also end up with a much larger R&R bill because their mech was in most cases more damaged or destroyed than the victors. It's a double whammy and becomes a larger and larger drain as they are unable to repair, and are more likely to then lose again because their mech is entering damaged or with low ammo, or they get free repairs because they are broke but are still at a C-Bill deficit to upgrade their equipment or use consumables to increase their chances of winning.

What he said up there. Bet he took some of dem "economics" thingies that seem to have got your panties in such a bunch.. LOL!

[JaxRiot]

Sandpit, on 11 January 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

pretty much sums it up

It's strange how even though they're making these ridiculous claims of "but think of the new players" the ones we see complaining about this are old players.
Interesting dynamic if you ask me.

The new players showing up on Marik TS aren't saying these things.

So it leads me to wonder, exactly who are the "altruistic" players really trying to help? It's definitely not new players, since I rarely, if ever, see any of those jumping up and down about "protecting new players" from the "big bad premade boogeyman" posting in new player threads asking for help
posting guides
posting factual information to help new players find information they need
getting in faction chat and helping direct their faction's new players to good beginner info and offering tips

or anything else that would actually help new players and solo players trying to learn how to "get better" in CW and such. Meanwhile, those of us in the "evil premades" are doing everything I just listed quite more commonly.

So tell me again, who has the community's, MWO's, new players', and CW's best interest at heart and who are the ones simply stomping around looking to spread blatant misinformation that confuses and hurts new player chances at being mroe competitive?

Seriously, feel free to check post histories and such. New players and low tier players asking for assistance are very rarely helped by anyone (based on the threads I see anyhow) in this thread jumping up and down about "helping improve CW and NPE"

Keep on doing what you guys are doing though, meanwhile the rest of us are watching our units, TS servers, and communities thrive and grow.

You make some good points and I respect that. I really do.

But this debate about Pugs vs Units is almost exactly the same as the Pug vs Groups that lead to the separate ques.

A Pug is just simply out matched by Premades nine times out of ten. Its just that simple.

A mosh posh group of players thrown together in a wide variety of mechs ranging from Meta to Trial and a wide range of skill levels will more than likely be no match for an organized Unit no matter how much you tell them to get better or how many New Player guides that are posted.

The wide variety of factors that can be encountered from one PuG group to the next Pug group are just too random and varied to nail down effectively.

Even though I think those kinds of New Player guides are great and thoughtful, they will not change the imbalance between PuGs and Units.

And I think the Units in CW know and understand this. They know that no matter what, that they will have the upper hand against PuGs the majority of the time.

So to me, the obvious solution is just to separate them. That way the Units get their Unit vs Unit warfare that they say they want and the PuGs can avoid the 12 man Boogieman they say they want.

Everyone wins.

But the Units Oppose it. Instead they start throwing out insulting remarks like "kiddie Pool", and "QQ", or that they are just "Bad" and need to get better.

Which is a shame because it doesnt have anything to do with any of those. Its just that there has always been an imbalance between PuGs and Premads.

I think the Units know that if the PuGs were removed that CW would dry up pretty fast and the Units would actually have to only face each other.

But as I type this I feel the debate is probably all for nothing. Phase 3 looks like it might cure many of these issues, and plus there are the rumors of Unit caps and maybe a few more changes that could help.

Makes me wonder if we are all just wasting our breath here.

But I do appreciate the efforts of New Player guides and such.

Edited "Let" to "Oppose"

Edited by JaxRiot, 12 January 2016 - 11:34 AM.

[pwnface]

Aelos03, on 12 January 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

You misunderstand maybe it is my fault for bad wording.

No it wouldn't remove 12 man drops they will get to fight only other 12 man drops that is it. Well if there is 10,11,5,6 people matchmaker will try to find same number of people for other side if not 10+2 vs 8+4 is still damn better then 12 vs all random. If gap is to big match won't be made until proper match is found. I don't see problem with this.

As I said I don't like having spawn points at all but only solution is that and you would never be spawned in unsafe spot that is the whole point of my idea. Well if you can't get objective at least you will be able to reorganize because all mechs that get destroyed spawn there far away from enemy. Otherwise you are stuck with magic defence to create you safe spot which doesn't solve anything.

Again, nothing is stopping teams from queueing up as all solos or as smaller groups to speed up matchmaking. Since players are able to choose which planet they want to attack or defend, it is incredibly easy to sync drop on the same team.

[Hotthedd]

MrJeffers, on 12 January 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

But calling it a tax isn't really disingenuous because effectively that is the result. In any match played it has some c-bill siphon that lowers your earnings, be that damage repair, ammo, or consumables. The first two being in place in R&R, the latter we have now but it's optional.
R&R isn't optional. The issue becomes that people who lost matches not only earn less C-Bills, but they also end up with a much larger R&R bill because their mech was in most cases more damaged or destroyed than the victors. It's a double whammy and becomes a larger and larger drain as they are unable to repair, and are more likely to then lose again because their mech is entering damaged or with low ammo, or they get free repairs because they are broke but are still at a C-Bill deficit to upgrade their equipment or use consumables to increase their chances of winning.

But it isn't a tax. It is a cost. It is a cost that can be mitigated by bringing less expensive 'mechs, less expensive internal structure, less expensive armor, less expensive ammo, and/or less expensive engines. And who generally runs these less expensive machines? The space-poor.
I would be all for making R&R optional for those who just don't want to deal with it. Make House loyalists get free R&R, and it is a choice to be a mercenary who has to pay R&R or a loyalist who does not.

But the fact remains, all taxes are costs, but all costs aren't taxes. R&R is not a tax.