96 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

VinJade, on 04 January 2016 - 05:55 AM, said:

thus MW:O isn't Battletech in any way shape or form.

Then petition PGI to remove any and all references to "A BattleTech Game".

[Aresye]

Mystere, on 04 January 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

Then petition PGI to remove any and all references to "A BattleTech Game".

I thought Gyrok was already on that?

[Mystere]

Aresye Kerensky, on 04 January 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

I thought Gyrok was already on that?

Considering I haven't seen it on page 1 of GD for over a month, someone needs to start a new Crusade.

[LordBraxton]

Flash Frame, on 03 January 2016 - 09:29 PM, said:

When most people talk about the "Golden Age of Beta" we're not even discussing balance. I think everyone will agree Balance is better now than it was then.

No what we're talking about is things like Better Sounds, Better Graphics [paint pealing back to reveal damaged internal structure, instead of simple black charing we have now on damaged areas], Inverse Kinematics, useable jump jets, no consumables, better economy,True dubs, ect.

thank you.

also, my personal preference is 3025, and CB was the only taste Ive ever had outside of tabletop, and it was glorious.

[Alistair Winter]

AnimeFreak40K, on 03 January 2016 - 05:34 PM, said:

One of my stances regarding any sort of rage towards the developers of this game (or, well, anything for that matter) is that doing so is pretty much pointless, especially from a logical standpoint. I mean if I get up and start rolling my face over my keyboard in an effort to tell PGI how terrible they are at what they’re doing is wrong…will that actually have any effect? No, no it won’t. If I get a gazillion people to back me up (or I join with them, whatever) and do the same thing, will that have any effect? Probably… but that’s only if PGI lets us have an effect. They don’t have to though.

Here's where I believe you're wrong. And this is why there's so much "toxicity".

You have to remember, the forums were very different in 2012 and 2013. There was so much constructive posting back then, it's hard for new players to imagine and it's difficult for veterans to remember:

• People would post suggestions about different maps and game modes and the whole forum would cheer. You'd get 150 likes and the thread would explode to 20 pages.
  
• People posted threads about statistics to analyze MWO, to identify important problems and discuss solutions. They would make these complex diagrams and spreadsheets, collecting data from thousands and thousands of matches. Almost everyone was really motivated to help PGI sort out their problems.
  
• People made constant suggestions on how to expand the game with different career paths, management of logistics, role warfare, how to handle the Clan Invasion, how to let big units shape Community Warfare, how to make Solaris, etc.
  
• A lot of people tried to interact with PGI and there was generally a very different attitude towards the devs back in the day. A lot more positivity, especially from the Closed Beta vets who had personally played with the devs and interacted with them during Closed Beta.

And I could go on.

The reason this stuff no longer goes on is because people feel like it makes no difference. Whenever someone starts a "Dear PGI" thread in the General Forum, you can bet a hundred dollars that one of the first replies will be "lol the devs don't read the forums anymore, dude. Get on Twitter."

So really, the reason there's so much toxicity on the forums isn't because people are determined to give Russ a bad day. It's because a lot of forum warriors feel like this is just an echo chamber that PGI isn't paying attention to anyway. It's like when people talk crap about Obama or the manager of their favourite sports team. It's even like complaining about the weather. It's something you do to pass the time with people who share your interest. The reason you're not being constructive all the time is because you feel it has no effect.

A while back, I was lucky enough to get some attention from PGI devs about custom geometry, you may recall. I started two threads with a total of ~300 replies. 420 people voted in my poll. I got a response from several people at PGI. 4 months later, I have no idea if anything is going to happen, but after that happened, some people assumed I knew how to get PGI's attention. But the reality is I have no idea how to get their attention, other than campaigning on Twitter. I feel like the only reason they heard me was because I specifically rallied the community behind a cause that Dennis DeKoenig mentioned in a Vlog, and I brought it to his attention. It was something PGI wanted to do anyway. If I got 400 people to vote in a poll about CW or game modes, would PGI listen? I honestly don't think so. The reason I stopped making constructive threads (with the exception of the custom geo, which I figured was a safe bet) is because I'm fairly certain I wasted countless hours with absolutely zero effect. It feels like nobody's listening. So if nobody's listening, I'll just treat the forum as a place where I can talk about anything with fellow MWO-players. I'm not worried about what PGI thinks when they're reading my posts, because I don't think they're reading them at all.

[Tyler Valentine]

El Bandito, on 04 January 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

Is it bad if I wish a large bird drops a tortoise on Paul's head?

Yes. But we all feel this way...

Alistair Winter, on 04 January 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Here's where I believe you're wrong. And this is why there's so much "toxicity".

You have to remember, the forums were very different in 2012 and 2013. There was so much constructive posting back then, it's hard for new players to imagine and it's difficult for veterans to remember:

• People would post suggestions about different maps and game modes and the whole forum would cheer. You'd get 150 likes and the thread would explode to 20 pages.
  
• People posted threads about statistics to analyze MWO, to identify important problems and discuss solutions. They would make these complex diagrams and spreadsheets, collecting data from thousands and thousands of matches. Almost everyone was really motivated to help PGI sort out their problems.
  
• People made constant suggestions on how to expand the game with different career paths, management of logistics, role warfare, how to handle the Clan Invasion, how to let big units shape Community Warfare, how to make Solaris, etc.
  
• A lot of people tried to interact with PGI and there was generally a very different attitude towards the devs back in the day. A lot more positivity, especially from the Closed Beta vets who had personally played with the devs and interacted with them during Closed Beta.

And I could go on.



The reason this stuff no longer goes on is because people feel like it makes no difference. Whenever someone starts a "Dear PGI" thread in the General Forum, you can bet a hundred dollars that one of the first replies will be "lol the devs don't read the forums anymore, dude. Get on Twitter."

So really, the reason there's so much toxicity on the forums isn't because people are determined to give Russ a bad day. It's because a lot of forum warriors feel like this is just an echo chamber that PGI isn't paying attention to anyway. It's like when people talk crap about Obama or the manager of their favourite sports team. It's even like complaining about the weather. It's something you do to pass the time with people who share your interest. The reason you're not being constructive all the time is because you feel it has no effect.

A while back, I was lucky enough to get some attention from PGI devs about custom geometry, you may recall. I started two threads with a total of ~300 replies. 420 people voted in my poll. I got a response from several people at PGI. 4 months later, I have no idea if anything is going to happen, but after that happened, some people assumed I knew how to get PGI's attention. But the reality is I have no idea how to get their attention, other than campaigning on Twitter. I feel like the only reason they heard me was because I specifically rallied the community behind a cause that Dennis DeKoenig mentioned in a Vlog, and I brought it to his attention. It was something PGI wanted to do anyway. If I got 400 people to vote in a poll about CW or game modes, would PGI listen? I honestly don't think so. The reason I stopped making constructive threads (with the exception of the custom geo, which I figured was a safe bet) is because I'm fairly certain I wasted countless hours with absolutely zero effect. It feels like nobody's listening. So if nobody's listening, I'll just treat the forum as a place where I can talk about anything with fellow MWO-players. I'm not worried about what PGI thinks when they're reading my posts, because I don't think they're reading them at all.

Wow. Summed up perfectly,

Edited by Tyler Valentine, 04 January 2016 - 02:36 PM.

[Wintersdark]

saKhan Ds00 Kerensky, on 04 January 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

That was THE best "become a shill" speech I've ever read. It even played on the heartstrings of "nothing this good will ever happen again for many years" fallacy, that is so long as you forget about Mechwarrior: Living Legends or Battletech.

11/10

MW:LL? The unlicensed and actually illegal fan made game with, what, a couple hundred players? A thousand?

Battletech, the not-mechwarrior game?

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

MW:LL? The unlicensed and actually illegal fan made game with, what, a couple hundred players? A thousand?

Battletech, the not-mechwarrior game?

Did they not have a (free) license? Which was forfeit once someone put money towards PGI's.
Not illegal by any means.

It does some things much better than PGI. Others worse.
Shame PGI didn't take more than just laser durations from them.

[Wintersdark]

Alistair Winter, on 04 January 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Here's where I believe you're wrong. And this is why there's so much "toxicity".

...really great post!

Truth. Of course, here's where its basically on us. These forums exist for us to talk to each other, but the devs don't read them. Accept that, and just go on with life. Don't try to communicate with them here, use twitter, or the town halls.

Then, there's less toxicity. You can't force them too read these forums, and there's no point in trying.

With that said, that doesn't mean the forums are useless for effecting change. It just has to be round about. Educate players, and once enough players clamour, sometimes things get done. Sometimes.

Mcgral18, on 04 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Did they not have a (free) license? Which was forfeit once someone put money towards PGI's.
Not illegal by any means.

It does some things much better than PGI. Others worse.
Shame PGI didn't take more than just laser durations from them.

They never had a license. Just nobody bothered with them because they were so small, and the IP was inactive at the time anyways. In terms of IP, its not like a trademark. You don't need to actively protect it to maintain it.

Nobody objecting != licensed.

[Navid A1]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

Truth. Of course, here's where its basically on us. These forums exist for us to talk to each other, but the devs don't read them. Accept that, and just go on with life. Don't try to communicate with them here, use twitter, or the town halls.

Then, there's less toxicity. You can't force them too read these forums, and there's no point in trying.

With that said, that doesn't mean the forums are useless for effecting change. It just has to be round about. Educate players, and once enough players clamour, sometimes things get done. Sometimes.
...

Don't you think the community manager is paid to do stuff like being the bridge between the community and the developers?
PGI have room for improvement in that aspect!

Edited by Navid A1, 04 January 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2016 - 03:00 PM, said:

They never had a license. Just nobody bothered with them because they were so small, and the IP was inactive at the time anyways. In terms of IP, its not like a trademark. You don't need to actively protect it to maintain it.

Nobody objecting != licensed.

?
http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/eula/

Quote

[color=#000000]Game Content Usage rules license from[/color]MICROSOFT

[KahnWongFuChung]

Don't you think the community manager is paid to do stuff like being the bridge between the community and the developers?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WHO? From watching the blogs and stuff I really don't think she knows how to address this community in any positive way or to scan and retain any of the thousands of good sound ideas on this forum that possibly would have made MWO game of the year or enhanced the game play and make this minimal viable product any better.

This last year PGI has made a effort to make MWO better but they keep implementing stupid ideas like (A report system we never needed) a ( vote MM system that is a total joke) that no one ever saw coming and discarded game options that would have made MWO a much better game like (New Game modes) or a new (chat social system for new and old players to interact) or even a new (Mission mode AI system) for more immersion into the game and give it appeal.

Frankly after 3 years many are right the game is getting old boring and totally asinine in the Devs quest to make MWO some E-peen E-sport game.

Edited by KahnWongFuChung, 04 January 2016 - 03:23 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Navid A1, on 04 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

Don't you think the community manager is paid to do stuff like being the bridge between the community and the developers?
PGI have room for improvement in that aspect!

you'd think, but despite popular belief, that doesn't seem to be the community managers job at PGI. At least, none of them ever seem to do it.

Tina appears to initially, but I suspect someone told her that was not in fact her job.

*shrugs* there's no sense getting riled up. Low expectations are the keys to happiness.

Or at least, less disappointment.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Alistair Winter, on 04 January 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Here's where I believe you're wrong.

But I'm not wrong...your follow-on statement pretty much said exactly what I said: getting upset and going after PGI will accomplish nothing. Further, getting a bunch of people to back me up on a thing may not get the results either, so there probably isn't a lot of point in it either.

As an FYI, I know that going on about stuff in the forums of any game/franchise is not likely going to get many results because, despite the good intentions of the people posting on the forums, we have absolutely no clue what we're talking about. This is a lesson that I learned from a friend of mine who used to work for a company that does Tabletop minis. He used to lament that the higher-ups ignored the fandom and gutted the forums. A few years later, he's working for a different company (tabletop RPG) at the head of a product and at first he used to pay attention to the forums and look for advice from the people there. He stopped that with a quickness when he realized that, despite the good intentions (and even pretty neat ideas) of the people there...it was just toxic and those people had no clue about anything regarding actual game design, writing or anything like that (despite their claims to the otherwise).

In any event, my primary issue with the toxicity is that it exists at this level in the first place (while I would prefer that this not be the case, I know that no matter what community you're going to look at, there is at least some toxicity there) and outside people see this (consider Pika's experience on Page 1) and it causes a reaction.

Look, I've been here since 2013 and while I was always aware that in some places and topics in the forums that would make 4Chan look like it was the spit-shiniest pillar of the internet community and I honestly and truly did not feel like saying anything about it then. What prompted me to say something is the result of at least one exchange on the Steam Discussion boards (some folks here may be aware of what I am speaking of.
Some folks ask a question, a legitimate one, and some of these ultra-salty vets come in and give snarky answers and backhanded replies. They belittle and insult anybody who doesn't agree with them and generally act in poor form. This has caused at least one person go go "I see, well between PGI's past issues and the way you guys are behaving, I don't want any part of this. Thanks, but no thanks."

I will be clear, I am well aware that in the incident in question that I am not without blame; I poked at some issues that I know were sore-spots with some of these ultra-salty vets and I didn't have to do that. I responded to comments that I could have just ignored...so yeah, I am acknowledging my part in at least one player deciding to not get into the game.

After that happened, I could not help but find myself thinking about how this sort of behavior has driven off other potential players/customers. I had to wonder if the unbridled rage that some of these guys were carrying around and using to salt any and all posts they could bet their hands on was not, in fact, negatively tainting the view of potential new players/customers?

In addition to the above, I get the impression from some people (both here and on Steam) that some people in this fandom/franchise would rather hate anything that doesn't in their narrow view of what 'they think a BT/MW game should be' to the point that they really would be satisfied with nothing at all.

Frankly, I find this to be both a sad and terrible view to have. While I am under no illusions that MWO is without problems or failings, or that PGI has made a lot of (very) avoidable mistakes, but is it really better to have nobody want to touch the MWO/BT franchise for another 10+ years because the fandom? Is it really fair to people who just want to play a game about giant stompy robots? Is this fair to the franchise and IP as a whole that the behavior of some of its "core audience" pushes developers and investors away?

This is why I consider some aspects of this fandom to be self-defeating.

You have people here that would rather see PGI and MWO fail than have anything new or cool. The fact of the matter is that if PGI does not continue to show other developer and publishing companies that a MechWarrior game is viable, once the license lapses (I have heard 2018, but could also 2020), it may be another 10+ years before someone else decides they want to stick their hand in the bear cage.

Frankly, I would rather have a mediocre (or minimally viable) game today and going forward for the next 2-4 years that shows that MechWarrior *is* a franchise worth investing and doing stuff with so we can get better stuff later on down the lines.

[Wintersdark]

Mcgral18, on 04 January 2016 - 03:08 PM, said:

?
http://www.mechlivinglegends.net/eula/

Microsoft's Game Content Usage Rules is a specific set of rules allowing people to use their content in certain ways. Now, I don't have a copy of MWLL's version, if they actually have their own different set of rules, but the basic rules specifically forbid using a Microsoft "Name" - Mechwarrior - as the first word in your products name, along with other things.

However, ill assume they worked out their own agreement, as opposed to using the the existing GCUR, and retract the "illegal" portion of the prior comment.

Regardless, they're irrelevantly small, a couple thousand strictly non-commercial players at best (and typically way less). This hardly counts as good usage of the Mechwarrior IP.

I'll never understand why people insist on saying MWO is a failing game, then hold up MWLL as a success.

I get they did some thing well - I don't deny that. But they _can't_ be anything of note because of what they are.

[Alistair Winter]

AnimeFreak40K, on 04 January 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

You have people here that would rather see PGI and MWO fail than have anything new or cool. The fact of the matter is that if PGI does not continue to show other developer and publishing companies that a MechWarrior game is viable, once the license lapses (I have heard 2018, but could also 2020), it may be another 10+ years before someone else decides they want to stick their hand in the bear cage.

Frankly, I would rather have a mediocre (or minimally viable) game today and going forward for the next 2-4 years that shows that MechWarrior *is* a franchise worth investing and doing stuff with so we can get better stuff later on down the lines.

That part of the community is obviously self-defeating. But that's actually such a small group that it can legitimately be called a 'vocal minority'. And yeah, I realize the irony in saying that. But we're talking about such a tiny group of people.

[Ted Wayz]

Wintersdark, on 03 January 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

Bunch of unsubstantiated stuff.

Please site sources. I find the business acumen on these forums severely lacking, full of assumptions with no real proof or basis on how business' really work.

Forget the BT community, and by damning them you damn the people who made this game possible BTW, I judge someone on how well they keep their word. I have been very patient with PGI and gave them a free pass once IGP was out of the way so they could be judged on their own merits. I have bought everything and provided many more ideas on what I would spend even more money on. But I always counted on them to keep to their word on what they had promised us they would someday deliver.

Then came the Steam release party and the announcement of what they intend to work on in 2016.

And I have lost all faith and will give them no money until there is a change in direction. Maybe PGI did not break their word with you and you are fine with how things are, but for some of us, even those of us who have been very patient, they have lost their way.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 04 January 2016 - 03:59 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Ted Wayz, on 04 January 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Please site sources. I find the business acumen on these forums severely lacking, full of assumptions with no real proof or basis on how business' really work.

Whatever.

Quote

Forget the BT community, and by damning them you damn the people who made this game possible BTW, I judge someone on how well they keep their word. I have been very patient with PGI and gave them a free pass once IGP was out of the way so they could be judged on their own merits. I have bought everything and provided many more ideas on what I would spend even more money on. But I always counted on them to keep to their word on what they had promised us they would someday deliver.

Then came the Steam release party and the announcement of what they intend to work on in 2016.

And I have lost all faith and will give them no money until there is a change in direction. Maybe PGI did not break their word with you and you are fine with how things are, but for some of us, even those of us who have been very patient, they have lost their way.

"a change in direction"

You understand that that is a totally useless thing to say? What does it even mean?

A change to what? Maybe you feel PGI broke their word with you - I'd argue that, to be honest, and say that you're imagining a contract that doesn't exist, but lets go with "They Did." If anyone gets to say that, it's you Founder sorts.

But so what? It is what it is now. There isn't going to be a magical "change of direction" that makes everyone happy, because as much as you all like to say "you don't like the direction PGI is going" (note the lack of any actual specifics in desired "direction" vs. current "direction"), I absolutely freaking GUARANTEE that there is no "direction" that will make you all happy. Do you honestly believe that there is anything they can reasonably do that will make all - or even a majority - of founders happy? What is it? Be specific now.



Anyways. Sure, give them no more money. You shouldn't be giving them money on faith anyways, that's stupid. You don't give them money because you hope for something that isn't here yet, give them money for what they are selling. Buy mechs because you want those mechs, or don't. There is NO contract from them, no promises of anything short of what the sticker says. The founders program ended a long time ago, there hasn't been anything since then that has any sort of attached "word"/"promise".

They sometimes share their goals for the near and long future, but these should in no way be interpreted as promises or such; they are what they want to do, but may not turn out to be practical for any of a vast array of reasons.

They can't lose their way for me. I either want to buy what they are selling, based on the game we have at that moment, or I don't. If the former, and I have the cash, I buy. If the later? I don't. If I'm not currently playing/enjoying the game, I'm probably not going to buy new stuff to have in the game... But I'm certainly not going to cry about it either.

PGI owes me nothing, and I owe PGI nothing.

Edited by Wintersdark, 04 January 2016 - 04:12 PM.

[Wintersdark]

---

Look, I apologize for the above (but am leaving it there, as it is how I feel).

However, It was... Strongly worded. And I do - as I said - feel that if anyone has a right to be aggrieved, it's you Founders. You're the ONLY ones who do, as you bought into a design plan that didn't play out as intended.

I've been here pretty long; not as long as you, but damn close. I'm just sick and tired of the endless tears about how PGI "broke their word" with people. It's a game. If you don't like it, leave. Go away. Or at least, just shut up about it. But don't keep pouring salty tears all over the world, trying to warn off new players because PGI MIGHT LIE TO THEM - That isn't happening, won't happen, because there are no promises in the first place. No contracts. It's their product, for them to make as they please. They are not beholden to us; not to me or to you. The owe us nothing. But this also means, they won't break their word to anyone else, as there's no word to break.

I'm irritable about this, there I go again.

Seriously, I get that you're pissed about how things worked out, and you have some right to be. But really, just let it go.

Edited by Wintersdark, 04 January 2016 - 04:20 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

LordBraxton, on 03 January 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

PGI was already successful, why are we talking about 'if it will succeed or not?'

MWO has already peaked, lets get real. It looks and feels more and more dated every month, and I would consider it a mild success considering how much PGI gets for their mechs while offering SO SO little in terms of game development progress.

MWO will never 'take off,' it's far too late for that. While I am a serious 'bittervet,' because I HATE where this game has gone since the golden glory days of Beta, Im glad that PGI managed to make money selling their mechs, and am sad that the game will never have huge appeal.

Acting like MWO could become considerably more popular in the future is ridiculous though... I've never seen or heard of a game 'taking off' 3+ years after its release.

Enjoy it while its here, and hope someone more competent gets the rights 10 years from now. Im pretty young for a CBT fan, so Ill be around for plenty more mechwarrior.

I just hope the next game is set in 3025.

this