30 replies to this topic

[SideWinderBLN]

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions that neither mwowiki.org nor a forum search were able to help me out with:

What is the current effect, when you have both the Beagle Active Probe (BAP) and ECM installed on the same mech and how were both affected by the changes to ECM range?

MWO wiki states that the Counter-Functionality of BAP alone has a range of 360m but is replaced by the ECMs counter. However the latest edit is from before the change to ECM range so I am not sure how that interaction actually works. The post about changes to ECM range said something about BAP range changes coming up, but I couldn't find any specifics anywhere.

So here are my questions:

Assuming you only carry BAP:

• At what range does the BAP currently counter an ECM carried by another mech?

Assuming you carry BAP and ECM:

• At what range does your Mech counter an ECM when your ECM is in counter mode?
  
• Do you counter ECM (via the BAP) if your ECM is set to disrupt mode?

Thanks a bunch for any answers (or pointers which would have been the right place to find these questions answered).

Edited by SideWinderBLN, 06 January 2016 - 03:37 PM.

[Kotzi]

ECM has to be toggled to counter mode. So bringing ECM and BAP would enable you to counter further and still use your ECM to disrupt enemy sensors.

EDIT: BAP range is 240.

Edited by Kotzi, 06 January 2016 - 07:08 AM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Kotzi do you know that or is it a guess?

I know if you have ECM and BAP you have to switch the ECM to counter to get the counter ECM affect, and I am not sure if ECM is countered at the ECMs 90m range, 150m which counter ECM used to be ^{(I am not sure if the counter ECM range was reduced when the ECM bubble range was)}, or the current 240m range of BAP.

sorry

[Kotzi]

Pretty sure cause i use BAP on almost every mech, even with ECM. But i have to admit that i couldnt tell 100%. Wish i had PT so i could check that with a buddy. Hard to do on the battlefield, especially with that amount of ECM nowadays.

[Rogue Jedi]

Kotzi, on 06 January 2016 - 07:29 AM, said:

Pretty sure cause i use BAP on almost every mech, even with ECM. But i have to admit that i couldnt tell 100%. Wish i had PT so i could check that with a buddy. Hard to do on the battlefield, especially with that amount of ECM nowadays.

I have premium time, we can easily login to check that, I am available for the next 4 hours, let me know if you want to try it

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 06 January 2016 - 08:12 AM.

[SideWinderBLN]

Rogue Jedi, on 06 January 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

I have premium time, we can easily login to check that, I am available for the next 4 hours, let me know if you want to try it

You guys are awesome. Let me know if I can help checking it out in any way (also have Premium Time at the moment).

[Koniving]

ECM and BAP cannot stack their "counter" range. You get BAP's counter range while ECM is set in "Counter" mode, and when ECM is in "jamming" mode, you do not get BAP's ECM-countering benefits.

[Chaldon]

Koniving, on 06 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

ECM and BAP cannot stack their "counter" range. You get BAP's counter range while ECM is set in "Counter" mode, and when ECM is in "jamming" mode, you do not get BAP's ECM-countering benefits.

This above ^^^^ needs to be placed into the game itself. I shouldn't have to google if effects stack.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Koniving, on 06 January 2016 - 02:27 PM, said:

ECM and BAP cannot stack their "counter" range. You get BAP's counter range while ECM is set in "Counter" mode, and when ECM is in "jamming" mode, you do not get BAP's ECM-countering benefits.

Are you certain? I run BAP/ECM Ravens 99% of the time. My understanding before the ECM nerf was that with BAP/ECM you only get the ECM's counter effects and range. Running with both basically shuts off all BAP counter effects, regardless of what mode your ECM is set on (although you still get the extra sensor range and quicker paper doll info).

Again, this was before the ECM nerf, did something else change?

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 17 March 2016 - 10:34 AM.

[mailin]

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 March 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

My understanding before the ECM nerf was that with BAP/ECM you only get the ECM's counter effects and range. Running with both basically shuts off all BAP counter effects, regardless of what mode your ECM is set on (although you still get the extra sensor range and quicker paper doll info).

Again, this was before the ECM nerf, did something else change?

This was my understanding as well, which was why I never put BAP on an ECM mech, that and a lack of spare tonnage.

[Koniving]

Fen Tetsudo, on 17 March 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

Are you certain? I run BAP/ECM Ravens 99% of the time. My understanding before the ECM nerf was that with BAP/ECM you only get the ECM's counter effects and range. Running with both basically shuts off all BAP counter effects, regardless of what mode your ECM is set on (although you still get the extra sensor range and quicker paper doll info).

Again, this was before the ECM nerf, did something else change?

Original answer before realizing it's not the question I thought it was.

Spoiler

Quite.
This has been since ECM was created in 2012, as stated by then weapons designer Thomas Dziegielewski (I had to look that name up because...holy ****) and Paul Inuoye.

This was posted in patch notes, found here.
Kyle Polulak


Posted 21 May 2013 - 02:06 PM

Quote

Open Beta Update #17

Upcoming Patch - Tuesday May 21st @ 10AM – 1PM PDT
Patch Number: 1.2.223

Change Log

UPDATE

Greetings MechWarriors!
<SNIP!>
Beagle Active Probe

- Now counters ECM within 150m.
- BAP will only counter 1 enemy ECM 'Mech within its range

- A Mech that equips both ECM and BAP will only receive the sensor range bonus and the ability to detect powered down Mechs from BAP. Other BAP features gets overridden by the active ECM.

Enemy disruption ECM will no longer mask the positions of your teammates

So. From the dawn of time, so to speak? While still considered beta, day one of BAP countering, BAP has NEVER stacked with ECM to counter ECM.

The one and only way to counter ECM when using an ECM, with or without BAP, is to set to COUNTER mode on the ECM. You will NOT get counter abilities from BAPwhile you have an ECM equipped. Ever.

This has always been the case.

One sec. I read that wrong, sorry it's been a long day. That was for ECM and BAP not stacking counter abilities. So here is how that appears to work.

Mathematically it works like this:
ECM's counter range is jam range = counter range. 90 meters.
ECM counter + Sensor Range = counter + 15%. = 103.5 meters.
ECM counter + Advanced Sensor Range = counter + 25% = 112.5 meters.
ECM counter + BAP = Counter + 25% = 112.5 meters.

Bap range is a flat 240 unless changed (haven't read one).

Will test it tonight.

Edited by Koniving, 17 March 2016 - 01:22 PM.

[JC Daxion]

I don't know the ranges, Kon might be right about the numbers though.. I always thought that the only thing BAP did on a mech with ECM was increase sensor range. At any rate, for me i never run both because of the mechanic. If i need to counter I'm in brawl mode so range doesn't matter at that point. And far, you want ECM cover.

Bap on many mechs though is solid advice especially brawlers or Long range mechs.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Has there been any followup from testing this?

My understanding and experience is that if you are trying to use ECM counter to negate an enemy mech's ECM bubble, and are carrying BAP, you get NONE of the BAP effects (neither higher range of 250m nor the % increase in range) listed against ECM.

Equipping ECM overrides whatever counter-ECM abilities BAP provides you. Even when its not in counter mode.

I'd like to be wrong. I can get online to help test, just shoot me a pm.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 20 March 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

I'm going to risk asking about this one more time. I think maybe what was confusing me was the thing about the Counter effects, which was not really what I was asking about.

I get it that you do not get the counter effects of a Probe (I take it that the Clan and the IS both work in the same way) when you are also carrying ECM but that is not why I want to carry it.

What I want a probe for is the increased range and that it speeds up targeting data, not the counter. For instance, On my Narc Raven, I'm carrying BAP, the G-ECM and the Increased Sensor Range Module. If I had another slot open I'd also carry the Targeting Info Gathering Module. So do I get the increased range, the speed up targeting data and the ability to find shut down Mechs at close range?

Last thing to show that I'm a bit slow....Using my magnifying glass, I went over the quirks again for the RVN-3L, which I call the Narc Raven. The IS Narc has a range of 450Ms compared to the Clan's 600M. When I read "Narc Beacon Range +100%". I thought that meant it fired at twice the IS range of 450Ms or 900Ms.

It just hit me that that is wrong and is the reason I'm missing a lot with it. Narc Beacon Range means I take it now is how far the beacon's signal carries. I never knew there was a certain range and I still have no idea what it is.

Now, I'm thinking that a Narc counts as a missile so the RVN-3L also has a +10% for range, velocity, and cooldown for missiles. And a + 15% towards Narc Beacon duration. And I have the Narc Module that has +20% for Speed (Speed being the same as velocity) and a +30% for Duration of the Beacon.

So, with the quirks and Module, my Narcs have +30% to velocity, a +10% for range, a +10% for cooldown meaning I can fire another one 10% faster. And the duration of it is +45%. Is that right?

Which still begs the question, what is the normal beacon range of an IS and/or Clan Narc?

Edited by LikeUntoGod, 22 September 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

P.S. Narcing is stupid.....Today, this guy in a Cyclops starts the game telling us he has over 7,000 LRMs.

I say OK, look for my Narced Targets. 2 and 1/2 minutes later I have 3 Narced and I'm telling him what and where they are and to bring the missiles.

He says "I'm already dead"....I'm like funk me, I get shot up Narcing for you and you are already dead? REALLY?

I think we should get a little XP for each Narc done and something for every LRM shot down.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

LikeUntoGod, on 22 September 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

Last thing to show that I'm a bit slow....Using my magnifying glass, I went over the quirks again for the RVN-3L, which I call the Narc Raven. The IS Narc has a range of 450Ms compared to the Clan's 600M. When I read "Narc Beacon Range +100%". I thought that meant it fired at twice the IS range of 450Ms or 900Ms.

It just hit me that that is wrong and is the reason I'm missing a lot with it. Narc Beacon Range means I take it now is how far the beacon's signal carries. I never knew there was a certain range and I still have no idea what it is.

Now, I'm thinking that a Narc counts as a missile so the RVN-3L also has a +10% for range, velocity, and cooldown for missiles. And a + 15% towards Narc Beacon duration. And I have the Narc Module that has +20% for Speed (Speed being the same as velocity) and a +30% for Duration of the Beacon.

So, with the quirks and Module, my Narcs have +30% to velocity, a +10% for range, a +10% for cooldown meaning I can fire another one 10% faster. And the duration of it is +45%. Is that right?

Which still begs the question, what is the normal beacon range of an IS and/or Clan Narc?

No the narc range is the range of the projectile.

Once enemy is narc'ed it will be targettable from any range, unless it's protected by someone elses ECM. If it only has it's own ECM the narc will cancel it.

And no, missile quirks will not affect narc. You can see from mechlab which affects which, by hovering over the placed weapon, it will display which quirks apply to it. The different values are base values.

And the narc quirk is not +100%, it's +100. Meters.


For the other question about ECM and active probe and their combined effects, I don't know.

Narcing is not always so effective. I would suggest don't narc so many targets at same time. And there are lots and lots of bad players on both teams.

Edited by Teer5, 22 September 2016 - 05:59 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Teer5, on 22 September 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

No the narc range is the range of the projectile.

Once enemy is narc'ed it will be targettable from any range, unless it's protected by someone elses ECM. If it only has it's own ECM the narc will cancel it.

And no, missile quirks will not affect narc. You can see from mechlab which affects which, by hovering over the placed weapon, it will display which quirks apply to it. The different values are base values.

And the narc quirk is not +100%, it's +100. Meters.


For the other question about ECM and active probe and their combined effects, I don't know.

Narcing is not always so effective. I would suggest don't narc so many targets at same time. And there are lots and lots of bad players on both teams.

So Narc Beacon Range +100 means +100 meters. Stupid question, why does it not say METERS?

So +15 Duration...Milliseconds? Seconds? Minutes?

Thanks for the tip of hovering my mouse over the weapon, that is a good thing to know.

I'm practicing Narcing and the way I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong again, Narcing also tells your team where the Narced Mechs are and their health etc.

[Koniving]

Proper narcing as seen from the target's perspective.

Narc as a brawler.


Range is the range of the projectile. It would say Narc Transmission or signal range if meant for its effects.

[Void Angel]

Much like hate lists in EQ, NARC's effect has no range - it is active on the victim and will be seen by anyone in range of that target.

[Tier5 Kerensky]

LikeUntoGod, on 22 September 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

I'm practicing Narcing and the way I understand it, please correct me if I'm wrong again, Narcing also tells your team where the Narced Mechs are and their health etc.

Yes, they can target it. I'm not sure if the detailed info will come faster, or instantly.

Normally getting the detailed info requires visual contact. If one friendly gets the detailed info it's shared instantly by anyone who also targets that enemy. Since narc allows targetting someone who no one is able to visually see, i'm not sure.