122 replies to this topic

[Cyborne Elemental]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 January 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

You know, I also don't understand why they keep buffing structure and not armor. Like, what's the logic? The problem is that some 'Mechs are getting disarmed or killed extra quick due to bad geometry/twist/etc., so they compensate with more durability. Okay, fine. But then they come out and show us that durability as structure. So...having all my weapons critted out as fast as I used to simply lose that whole component is an improvement...how? Are they thinking that structure is less of a boost than armor because it's soft? Well, they are right, and that's why the extra structure doesn't solve the problem unless you boost it way the hell up and even then it only works if most of the weapons are in a place that doesn't typically get opened up anyway. Atlas still loses its guns damn quick...it just gets to keep its torso intact. Meanwhile, the Blackjack has all of its guns in arms which rarely get hit, and so even when its torso sections are exposed it can still wreck your face, making all of that extra structure way more effective than it ought to be.

So...they've created a new problem without solving one. All they have to do is add a few points of armor instead of 100% more structure to get the result they wanted without turning the 'Mech into the Second Coming of MechaJesus...or is that RNGesus based on how they figure this stuff out?

They did it to drag out fights and brawls.
Most of the time it was just "Cheese!" dead..

You hardly ever started losing weapons or equipment ect before losing a section, you just got engine crit or cored and dead almost instantaneously while maintaining 100% firepower the entire time, with exception to AC-20 and Gauss always being easily insta-crit guarantee.

Extra structure lets you survive longer vs Clan Alpha madness, but you start losing weapons or DHS or ammo w/e more often because you're not instantly losing a limb before Critseeking can actually knock things out.

[Khobai]

This whole ordeal with quirks is stupid and completely out hand.

Instead of just making the CXL and ISXL both survive side torso destruction they decided to give IS mechs massive structure quirks so they could use XL engines more easily. They shouldve just made CXL and ISXL the same and spared us all from this structure quirk insanity

Same goes for weapon balance. Instead of giving IS mechs weapon superquirks they shouldve just made Clan and IS weapons equal at the base level.

PGI has completely lost sight of what quirks are for. Theyre not supposed to be used for balancing IS vs Clan tech bases or driving the meta towards long-range laser vomit. Theyre supposed to be used for differentiating mechs and buffing underpowered mechs, and thats all they should ever be used for.

Edited by Khobai, 07 January 2016 - 07:35 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 07 January 2016 - 07:26 PM, said:

This whole ordeal with quirks is stupid

Instead of just making the CXL and ISXL both survive side torso destruction they decided to give IS mechs massive structure quirks so they could use XL engines more easily. They shouldve just made CXL and ISXL the same and spared us all from this structure quirk insanity

Same goes for weapon balance. Instead of giving IS mechs weapon superquirks they shouldve just made Clan and IS weapons equal at the base level.

That would break balance (going side torso XL instagib makes Clans much worse, and making ISXL Clan-level durable obsoletes Standard Engines overnight).

Edited by Deathlike, 07 January 2016 - 07:34 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That would break balance (going side torso XL instagib makes Clans much worse, and making ISXL Clan-level durable obsoletes Standard Engines overnight).

been over this

IS STD engines could give a CT structure bonus to prevent them from being obsolete

[ZenFool]

The blackjack quirks are absurd and I honestly expected a nerf as soon as they got back from break. It hasn't happened yet, which is fine with me. I still have one more to master. Seriously, how do you think the jagers feel about it? The blackjack is half the size, much better overall agility, and tankier??? Some mechs are left in the dust because they were "tier one" like the shadowhawk or victor, while others simply get hate from the devs like the commando and vindicator.

This entire debacle was supposedly to bring underperforming mechs up to par. I think we all realize that it is more about keeping things fresh and getting people to spend their coin and has nothing to do with "balance".

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 07 January 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

been over this

IS STD engines could give a CT structure bonus to prevent them from being obsolete

Those bonuses would have to be huge, as tonnage savings (eg. firepower) rules the day.

[Peter2k]

Koniving, on 07 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Has anyone taken note of quirks as of lately?

Because I'm sitting on a 45 ton mech with 326 structure.
For comparison, I should probably mention that after quirks, a Hunchback gets 178+12 for 190 structure. For 50 tons.

The King Crab, Dire Wolf, and Atlas before quirks...which there aren't that many quirks to be had there... have 316 structure.

Yet I have a Blackjack with 326 structure. Not only that, but evidently ALL the Blackjacks have MORE structure than the 100 ton assaults.

Just...what....the... what are they thinking?

....Do they think?

Has this gone unnoticed?

I'm not a friend of quirks in general
It creates so many things to keep track of
And PGI is in the buiseness to sell mech after mech
Creating more and more things to keep track of


What were gonna do when we have 600 or 700 mechs (that's including variants here) in the game and we jump forward I timeline and IS gets light fusuion engines and er lasers?
Do them all again

They have to jump at some point to sell more mechs

Maybe weapons should've gotten quirks
And maybe some broad quirks like awesome = 15% boost to heat dissipation for those really underperforming mechs
That is if PGI would be to lazy to balance things from the ground up
But eh
Top dog 25% energy range+er large+er large range modul = can out range clan mechs
Go figure

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 07 January 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

Those bonuses would have to be huge, as tonnage savings (eg. firepower) rules the day.

+30CT
+20ST

...huh, like the current quirks, but without the firepower or the speed. Something to that significant degree.

Alternatives are heat related (because why not?), or agility bonuses to STD.
Something so significant a Hunch IIC would consider a STD instead of a cXL, as would IS mechs over a non-death isXL.

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 January 2016 - 08:03 PM.

[Pjwned]

Koniving, on 07 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Has anyone taken note of quirks as of lately?

Because I'm sitting on a 45 ton mech with 326 structure.
For comparison, I should probably mention that after quirks, a Hunchback gets 178+12 for 190 structure. For 50 tons.

The King Crab, Dire Wolf, and Atlas before quirks...which there aren't that many quirks to be had there... have 316 structure.

Yet I have a Blackjack with 326 structure. Not only that, but evidently ALL the Blackjacks have MORE structure than the 100 ton assaults.

Just...what....the... what are they thinking?

....Do they think?

Has this gone unnoticed?

There were a number of threads about the insane structure quirks a few weeks ago, so no it didn't really go un-noticed.

Lyoto Machida, on 07 January 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

Blame the players for that.

Blame players for PGI's incompetence?

Khobai, on 07 January 2016 - 07:39 PM, said:

been over this

IS STD engines could give a CT structure bonus to prevent them from being obsolete

That would also be a crap solution, so no thanks.

[Y E O N N E]

Mister D, on 07 January 2016 - 07:18 PM, said:

They did it to drag out fights and brawls.
Most of the time it was just "Cheese!" dead..

You hardly ever started losing weapons or equipment ect before losing a section, you just got engine crit or cored and dead almost instantaneously while maintaining 100% firepower the entire time, with exception to AC-20 and Gauss always being easily insta-crit guarantee.

Extra structure lets you survive longer vs Clan Alpha madness, but you start losing weapons or DHS or ammo w/e more often because you're not instantly losing a limb before Critseeking can actually knock things out.

Well no, I got all of that. That's not what I don't understand. What I don't understand is how they think being alive but weaponless is any better than being dead (anecdote, I lose both AC/5s simultaneously and damn near instantly every time the right side torso on my Marauder 5M is breached and it's stupid as hell). That's why buffing structure does not and has never made sense. The whole point is to keep the 'Mech effective, not just alive. Alive is meaningless if it can't contribute.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 January 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Well no, I got all of that. That's not what I don't understand. What I don't understand is how they think being alive but weaponless is any better than being dead (anecdote, I lose both AC/5s simultaneously and damn near instantly every time the right side torso on my Marauder 5M is breached and it's stupid as hell). That's why buffing structure does not and has never made sense. The whole point is to keep the 'Mech effective, not just alive. Alive is meaningless if it can't contribute.

Mist Lynx said:

Guise... if you could give me a helping hand here... I lost mine.

[Y E O N N E]

That's why you don't ECM on the MLX!

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Wintersdark, on 07 January 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Yeah, everyone noticed the Blackjack. Pretty much right away.

As a clan player, it's pretty tough to NOT notice it. Blackjacks can tank damage better than any Clan mech. ANY Clan mech, period - not just "like a stormcrow"; they have fantastic hitboxes AND structure comparable to a Dire Wolf.

I certainly don't begrude IS mechs more sturdiness, but I find it absurd that the Blackjack is such a monsterous tank, able to withstand more fire than a King Crab while the Vindicator is still one of the worst mechs in the game. The Blackjack was decent before quirks. Why did it get god-quirks and the Vindi nothing?

I've pretty much accepted the fact that PGI has given up on the Vindicator.

**** you, Paul.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 07 January 2016 - 09:52 PM.

[El Bandito]

Koniving, on 07 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Has anyone taken note of quirks as of lately?

Because I'm sitting on a 45 ton mech with 326 structure.
For comparison, I should probably mention that after quirks, a Hunchback gets 178+12 for 190 structure. For 50 tons.

The King Crab, Dire Wolf, and Atlas before quirks...which there aren't that many quirks to be had there... have 316 structure.

Yet I have a Blackjack with 326 structure. Not only that, but evidently ALL the Blackjacks have MORE structure than the 100 ton assaults.

Just...what....the... what are they thinking?

....Do they think?

Has this gone unnoticed?

You must also include armor--which is more effective than structures in defense, into consideration.

Storm Crow has 561 effective health (structure+armor) + Clan XL.

Blackjack has a total of 629 effective health, including quirks. (that amounts to only 10 HP more per location than the Crow) Most of them uses IS XL, with insta-death on ST loss.

100 tonners such as the Dire wolf has 927 effective health, without quirks, with buttloads of guns.

Wintersdark, on 07 January 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

As a clan player, it's pretty tough to NOT notice it. Blackjacks can tank damage better than any Clan mech. ANY Clan mech, period - not just "like a stormcrow"; they have fantastic hitboxes AND structure comparable to a Dire Wolf.

I certainly don't begrude IS mechs more sturdiness, but I find it absurd that the Blackjack is such a monsterous tank, able to withstand more fire than a King Crab while the Vindicator is still one of the worst mechs in the game.

Now this is just wrong. A King Crab can certainly tank more shots than the Blackjack if both are stationary. If you include speed and size into equation, then an Arctic Cheetah can tank more shots than the Blackjack.

Having structure value comparable to a King Crab doesn't mean it can tank better than it if it also does not have as much armor as a King Crab.

My best deck has two Blackjack-1X, and I can tell you, from my over hundred CW matches with it, that it is not a tank. Assault mechs such as King Crab and Stalker are way more tanky than Blackjacks and can withstand focused fire better. Heck even Gargoyle can tank better than the Blackjack when it comes to brawls.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 January 2016 - 07:31 AM.

[Love in an Annihilator]

Remember, before "THE BIG REQUIRKENING" (where everything had to be done at once because otherwise it would become a mess - well done!) they said they'd look especially at hardpoint location to evaluate mechs.

There's your answer, the BJ got those megaquirks as compensation for it's horrible hardpoints.

Oh wait... .

[Nightmare1]

Koniving, on 07 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Has anyone taken note of quirks as of lately?

Because I'm sitting on a 45 ton mech with 326 structure.
For comparison, I should probably mention that after quirks, a Hunchback gets 178+12 for 190 structure. For 50 tons.

The King Crab, Dire Wolf, and Atlas before quirks...which there aren't that many quirks to be had there... have 316 structure.

Yet I have a Blackjack with 326 structure. Not only that, but evidently ALL the Blackjacks have MORE structure than the 100 ton assaults.

Just...what....the... what are they thinking?

....Do they think?

Has this gone unnoticed?

I recall my first encounter with just such a Blackjack. It was nigh unkillable! Five Clan Mechs were slugging away at it as the pilot torso twisted like a mad man. He had a standard engine too. We blew off every single component except for his head, CT, and one leg before we finally killed him. He just kept twisting and jumping and the structure quirks kept on soaking up the damage like a sponge.

That's seriously messed up.

[LordBraxton]

Rick Sanchez 1895, on 08 January 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Remember, before "THE BIG REQUIRKENING" (where everything had to be done at once because otherwise it would become a mess - well done!) they said they'd look especially at hardpoint location to evaluate mechs.

There's your answer, the BJ got those megaquirks as compensation for it's horrible hardpoints.

Oh wait... .

lolololol! so true!

I think the Centurion should be the super durable IS medium!

Its got NO JJs, low amounts of energy hardpoints, a wide profile, and chest or belly level weapons!

Yet the scrawny high-mounted-laser-spam blackjack got all the love

[Khobai]

Quote

That would also be a crap solution, so no thanks.

hows it a crap solution?

XL engines are pretty much supposed to be superior to STD engines anyway

same way DHS are supposed to be superior to SHS

the only reason XL engines suck in MWO is because we have precise convergence of weapons.... players can aim all their weapons for side torsos unlike tabletop which made hit locations random so XL engines were better protected

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Well at least I know that if they ever decided to balance engines like I suggested things would be interesting and maybe not so lopsided towards the BESM.

Khobai, on 08 January 2016 - 09:12 AM, said:

hows it a crap solution?

XL engines are pretty much supposed to be superior to STD engines anyway

Except if you played TT you would know that was never the case (even for Clans) nor is that any reason to keep such a stupid upgrade tier system in a multiplayer only game.

That said, I agree that STD engines should provide torso internals, preferably double. From there you can add stuff to keep it inline with XLs after removing the stupid side torso destruction rules.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 January 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

FupDup, on 07 January 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

It's because they want to trick people into thinking that crit-seeking weapons are viable.

But... they sound AMAZING!