122 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Dracol, on 08 January 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

Does the Blackjack deserve the high bonus? Maybe /maybe not. To me, the fixed arms give the same torso vunerability as the Jager. Also, overall tonnage for dealing damage is limited. It needs longer game time to deal damage comparable to heavier mechs.

Currently, it effectively is smaller than a Jagermech (harder to hit), has the same advantages to better ones than a Jagermech, and has more effective HP than a Jagermech.

There's a difference between "comparable" to "god mode." When you bring a Blackjack, the other team is forced to have its own 45 ton mech. Vindicators are vastly inferior in every sense. From being much taller, to having large surface areas to hit, to having fewer hardpoints, to having significantly less effective HP, as well as mostly low-hung firing positions requiring tremendous exposure.
Also look at the Blackjack's ability to torso twist, it hardly has a handicap for its arms. If anything the lack of arm movement makes it easier to exploit pinpoint front loaded damage.

Quirks were made to balance the underperforming mechs to be able to compete with well-performing ones. Blackjacks were never underperforming to start with, nor should they completely outclass larger mechs that perform worse than the Blackjack both before and after quirks.

Should it be comparable to? Sure!
Should it blatantly outclass to the point where you can take a Blackjack without armor and trump another mech that is fully armored? NO!

Edited by Koniving, 08 January 2016 - 03:36 PM.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

FupDup, on 08 January 2016 - 03:27 PM, said:

What kind of uber quirks do mechs like the Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Cauldron Born, Hellbringer, Dire Wolf, and Arctic Cheetah have?

The actual situation looks like this:

Before quirks:
"This mech will be bad"
"This mech will be good"

After quirks:
"This mech will be bad...unless it gets good quirks"
"This mech will be good"

im talking about IS mechs.

let me rephrase what you have said.

Before quirks:
"This mech will be bad"
"This mech will be good"

After quirks:
"This mech will be bad"
"This mech will be good because it has good quirks"

[Quicksilver Aberration]

stjobe, on 08 January 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

* No heat penalties besides shutting down at 100%
* Roughly tripled rate of fire, but no decrease in damage or heat per shot, nor any increase in dissipation.
* Instant and perfect convergence of all weapons.

I mean, it's a game. It's even fun from time to time. But it sure as hell isn't "a BattleTech game".

Because that's all there is to a BT game . Rules certainly don't make Battletech, Battletech, especially if consider the books which differ quite a bit from how TT even plays out most of the time, there would be way more random head shots if that were the case

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

There's that, too. So many little 'micro' mechanisms. Even Smurfy himself said "there is no way to explain what happens with flamers." He went on to effectively state: "It makes absolutely no sense."

(edit: went not want)

Does that mean Paul lives on Endor?

[Mcgral18]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

While I'm aware of this, consider also that Vindicator 45 tons gets:
526 effective HP after quirks (despite being as tall as most 80 ton mechs!!!!)
Hunchback, 50 tons: After quirks 546 effective HP.
Trebuchet, 50 tons and nearly as tall as an Atlas: 580 effective HP.
At 55 tons:
Griffin gets 614 effective HP. OR! IN the case of the VERY BEST GRIFFIN EVER -- before quirks... you get (after quirks) 658 because the best must be even bettah than all the rest! (Where the **** is the logic here?)
Kintaro, despite how everyone complains on how terrible they are, gets 608 effective HP.
Shadowhawk gets 611 effective HP.


I'm sorry but the logic here is completely lost. It's 45 goddamn tons. All of these mediums have way too much in the way of bonuses, as do some of the lights, as do many of the mechs in general. None of these would be necessary if the mechs didn't all have "faster firing" bonuses. None of this **** would have been necessary if these guys dug a little bit into the lore and paid more attention to aspects such as scale, hardpoint limitations, and especially weapon design.

Now, you did bring size into the calculation earlier. Let's make a comparison:

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

There's that, too. So many little 'micro' mechanisms. Even Smurfy himself said "there is no way to explain what happens with flamers." He went on to effectively state: "It makes absolutely no sense."

(edit: went not want)

The Flamer had new mechanics implemented by someone new, visibly, who disregarded the previous weapon code layout. No CamelCase, mostly.



IS

Weapon faction="InnerSphere" HardpointAliases="Energy,Flamer,ISFlamer" name="Flamer" id="1007">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\Flamer.dds" descTag="@Flamer_desc" nameTag="@Flamer"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.25" speed="100" lifetime="1.0" duration="-1.0" tons="1" maxRange="90.0" longRange="90.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="0.0" heat="1.0" impulse="0.0" heatdamage="0.0" damage="0.7" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="1" Health="10" maxheight="0" critChanceIncrease="0.14,0.08,0.03" critDamMult="1.1" trgheatinctime="3.0" heatinctime="6.25" coneoffire="10"/>

Clam

Weapon faction="Clan" HardpointAliases="Energy,Flamer,ClanFlamer" name="ClanFlamer" id="1210">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanFlamer.dds" descTag="@ClanFlamer_desc" nameTag="@ClanFlamer"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.25" speed="100" lifetime="1.0" duration="-1.0" tons="0.5" maxRange="90.0" longRange="90.0" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="0.0" heat="1.0" impulse="0.0" heatdamage="0.0" damage="0.7" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="1" Health="10" maxheight="0" critChanceIncrease="0.14,0.08,0.03" critDamMult="1.1" trgheatinctime="3.0" heatinctime="6.25" coneoffire="10"/>

[Koniving]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

Now the Nova to the Blackjack, Blackjack to Hunchback and anything else it blatantly outclasses.

That XML code still doesn't include why a single flamer can overpower the heat of 26 doubles to total shutdown in a matter of 2 minutes. Which is why Smurfy, though aware of it, says it is nearly impossible to explain or quantify.
---------------
Side note: Nova and Marauder, sans quirks, stock armor/structure values:
498
608

Then again, Nova's over 14 meters tall in MWO, when its supposed to be 8.6 meters (and without torso twist).
Marauder's also evidently over 14 meters according to that picture... but it's supposed to be around 12 meters tall. o.O;

Size could have made sense here with their inherit differences, without having to resort to quirks galore.

Edited by Koniving, 08 January 2016 - 04:15 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Now the Nova to the Blackjack, Blackjack to Hunchback and anything else it blatantly outclasses.

That XML code still doesn't include why a single flamer can overpower the heat of 26 doubles to total shutdown in a matter of 2 minutes. Which is why Smurfy, though aware of it, says it is nearly impossible to explain or quantify.

That can be arranged.

As for the heat, that would be one of these:

trgheatinctime="3.0" heatinctime="6.25"

The target heat going up twice as fast as yours, supposedly.
What it multiplies, and how it multiplies it? Your guess is as good as mine.

[Deathlike]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Now the Nova to the Blackjack, Blackjack to Hunchback and anything else it blatantly outclasses.

That XML code still doesn't include why a single flamer can overpower the heat of 26 doubles to total shutdown in a matter of 2 minutes. Which is why Smurfy, though aware of it, says it is nearly impossible to explain or quantify.

Based on the XML code, I can only surmise that the heat generation increases by those intervals listed (3s vs the target, 6.25s to yourself).

How much heat though is anyone's guess though... but that might actually be testable.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 08 January 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Based on the XML code, I can only surmise that the heat generation increases by those intervals listed (3s vs the target, 6.25s to yourself).

How much heat though is anyone's guess though... but that might actually be testable.

A Basic, 10 TrueDub mech would have a 50 heat cap, mastered at 60 heat.
As good a base as any (as SHS aren't +1 anymore)

[Koniving]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

That can be arranged.

As for the heat, that would be one of these:

trgheatinctime="3.0" heatinctime="6.25"

The target heat going up twice as fast as yours, supposedly.
What it multiplies, and how it multiplies it? Your guess is as good as mine.

I was eyeing that.

Side note: You can simply stop your heat increase by chainfiring 2 flamers. Want 8 flamers? Chainfire them in sets of 2. Never increase your own heat, ever.

Flamer Stalker.

Heat's from all my 'other' weapons.

Edited by Koniving, 08 January 2016 - 04:20 PM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Another problem with IS structure buffs that nobody is pointing out is it's effect on overheating. As someone who is quite good at managing heat (from playing alot of clans) I can effectively run at max heat all the time in my IS mechs. If I go over the threshold a bit, so what? I have a metric ton of structure to soak the damage. It is so abusable, I now run over ride on all the time in my IS laser boats, in fact the first thing I do at the start of every match is turn it on.

Edited by VorpalAnvil, 08 January 2016 - 04:23 PM.

[Mcgral18]

VorpalAnvil, on 08 January 2016 - 04:21 PM, said:

Another problem with IS structure buffs that nobody is pointing out is it's effect on overheating. As someone who is quite good at managing heat (from playing alot of clans) I can effectively run at max heat all the time in my IS mechs. If I go over the threshold a bit, so what? I have a metric ton of structure to soak the damage. It is so abusable, I now run over ride on all the time in my IS laser boats, in fact the first thing I do at the start of a match is turn it on.

Unless RNGeesus strikes your face.
You're dead regardless there. 20 damage randomly applied, while the face has 15.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

A Basic, 10 TrueDub mech would have a 50 heat cap, mastered at 60 heat.
As good a base as any (as SHS aren't +1 anymore)

Well, we still may have to start with SHS to get a better baseline idea (low dissipation rate) before we can figure out how effective DHS becomes.

Heat increases are gradual (most similar to lasers) although it doesn't really have a duration value either. IIRC Flamers (like MGs) use the laser mechanic... so the heat generated could probably be measured against dissipation.

Edit:
Considering the math (because Paul), it's going to be linear.

Edited by Deathlike, 08 January 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Unless RNGeesus strikes your face.
You're dead regardless there. 20 damage randomly applied, while the face has 15.

I am aware, but it happens less frequently than you would think. It's not as if I'm running around in matches trying to commit soduko.

[Navid A1]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

W A R K H A N, on 08 January 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

I would like some of those structure or PPC quirks for my Shadowcat

Duration plz

That will make the shadow cat hotter than it alreadyis.
it needs massive heat gen quirks

[Mcgral18]

I don't like when I accidently everything Hunchbacks...

Navid A1, on 08 January 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

That will make the shadow cat hotter than it alreadyis.
it needs massive heat gen quirks

Hotter because you can shoot more often.

Shorter durations don't increase heat, they just push it faster, but the dissipation ends at the same point, by the time the other laser finishes firing.

[El Bandito]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 12:39 PM, said:

Now compare it to smaller, and heavier mechs... or even to the 45 ton Vindicator with crappier hardpoints and taller than a Timber Wolf.

Is it fair?

Then PGI should buff the Vindicator. No need to bash on the Blackjack, not when the IS finally got a competitive level Medium after so long. You should be happy instead.

Personally I would trade back most of the structure buffs for the energy quirks PGI took from the BJ-1X. Never like to get shot at with my BJ in the first place.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 January 2016 - 05:40 PM.

[Koniving]

El Bandito, on 08 January 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

Then PGI should buff the Vindicator. No need to bash on the Blackjack, not when the IS finally got a competitive level Medium after so long. You should be happy instead.

Personally I would trade back most of the structure buffs for the energy quirks PGI took from the BJ-1X. Never like to get shot at with my BJ in the first place.

This is horrible.

Now for the "not an arms race" guy... consider this.

[Navid A1]

Mcgral18, on 08 January 2016 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hotter because you can shoot more often.

Shorter durations don't increase heat, they just push it faster, but the dissipation ends at the same point, by the time the other laser finishes firing.

You sure?
My tests show otherwise. You will have more heat spike each time you fire your lasers

This is the test i did in the testing grounds:
An un-basic'd Locust-1V with an LPL and -50% duration and no heat gen quirks. XL 100 engine with 6 extra single heat sinks:
Heat dissipation = -4*0.11 - 6*0.12 = -1.16 H/s
Heat generation during laser ON time = 7 / 0.335 = 20.9 H/s
Heat at the end of laser burn time = (20.9 - 1.16)*0.335 = 6.61 Heat
The mech has 42 heat capacity : 6.652 / 42 = 0.157 ~ 16% heat

Now take an un-basic'd urbanmech-R60L with 5% duration quirk, no heat gen with the same number of std heat sinks and engine:
Heat dissipation = -4*0.11 - 6*0.12 = -1.16 H/s
Heat generation during laser ON time = 7 / 0.63 = 11.11 H/s
Heat at the end of laser burn time = (11.11 - 1.16)*0.63 = 6.27 Heat
The mech has 42 heat capacity : 6.27 / 42 = 0.149 ~ 15% heat

Granted. its not much difference (in this case study that is). But it will have a difference!

[El Bandito]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

This is horrible.

It would only be a bad power creep if the IS tech became collectively stronger than that of the Clans.

Granted, base tech needs to be balanced before using quirk bandages.

Edited by El Bandito, 08 January 2016 - 06:03 PM.