122 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Navid A1, on 08 January 2016 - 05:52 PM, said:

Granted. its not much difference (in this case study that is). But it will have a difference!

To make this easier:
Use this.
Establish your own quirks, check out what happens.

[Koniving]

El Bandito, on 08 January 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

It would only be a bad power creep if the IS tech became collectively stronger than that of the Clans.

That has been the case for a while now.

It's a horrendous power creep when previously a mech like this Hunchback was the norm... unquirked.




Does terrific against ALL forms of threats.
And that's outclass by a 45 ton... which is then outclassed by any new mech that comes out, as they have to have quirks to match or surpass... which any mech coming out after that then has to have quirks to match or surpass. But wait, that wasn't good enough to compete or it was too good, and so others get quirked. And so each time a chassis or entire weight class gets quirks, the other ones all need quirks to compete, which means more need quirks, and then we gotta quirk the quirks so that you can quirk your quirks while you quirk.

Can I get a yo dog to go with it?

The power creep began over a year ago and it's been steadily increasing.

Quirks began as a 5 to 10% increase in performance to make selecting fewer hardpoints more appealing than selecting more hardpoints.

Correction, going back... Quirks began as a 2.5 to 5% increase or decrease in performance to make selecting fewer hardpoints more appealing than selecting more hardpoints. But almost all negative quirks have been removed, mechs are getting lots of positive quirks, and to compete with all these quirked mechs new mechs need quirks, and then the old ones need quirks to compete with the new quirked mechs...

PGI is walking on a powder keg with 17 lit cigars in the middle of a gunpowder room lined with boatloads of TNT with a flame thrower for a backscratcher. It won't be long before something blows.

Edited by Koniving, 08 January 2016 - 06:12 PM.

[Navid A1]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

To make this easier:
Use this.
Establish your own quirks, check out what happens.

Tried to use it... but that does not have duration quirks. Thanks


I did the same test with double heat sinks and larger engine in testing grounds:

An un-basic'd Locust-1V with an LPL and -50% duration and no heat gen quirks. XL 180 engine with 3 extra double heat sinks:
Heat dissipation = -7*0.2 - 3*0.15 = -1.85 H/s
Heat generation during laser ON time = 7 / 0.335 = 20.9 H/s
Heat at the end of laser burn time = (20.9 - 1.85)*0.335 = 6.38 Heat
The mech has 42 heat capacity : 6.38 / 45 = 0.142 ~ 14% heat

Now take an un-basic'd urbanmech-R60L with 5% duration quirk, no heat gen with the same number of DHS heat sinks and same engine:
Heat dissipation = -7*0.2 - 3*0.15 = -1.85 H/s
Heat generation during laser ON time = 7 / 0.63 = 11.11 H/s
Heat at the end of laser burn time = (11.11 - 1.85)*0.63 = 5.83 Heat
The mech has 42 heat capacity : 5.83 / 45 = 0.129 ~ 13% heat


As you can see... there is more heat spike. Yet even with DHS... Its not much difference (again... in this case study that is)


Damn...this littel TEST costed me 8 F*ing cbills.... 8 MILLION!!!

Edited by Navid A1, 08 January 2016 - 08:14 PM.

[stjobe]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 January 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

Because that's all there is to a BT game . Rules certainly don't make Battletech, Battletech, especially if consider the books which differ quite a bit from how TT even plays out most of the time, there would be way more random head shots if that were the case

I said it was a few of the bigger fails. And, by definition, rules certainly do make BattleTech BattleTech. If we introduced a rule that said certain weapons when fired together generated more heat than when fired separately, that would not be a BattleTech rule, and it would be very hard to come up with anything in the novels or fluff texts that supported such a rule.

But I do concede the point that the rules are supposed to be a formalization of the lore. On the other hand, much of the lore is based on the (TT) rules, so it's a two-way street.

Anyway, consider the three fails I brought up:

Is heat penalties a large part of BattleTech, be it TT rules, novels. or fluff? Yes, I think you have to agree they are. Grayson Carlyle staring down Lori Kalmar's Locust while on foot and armed only with an Inferno launcher comes to mind. In MWO there are no heat penalties except shutdown at 100%. If Lori had been in MWO she would have laughed at Grayson and ignored him. A single SRM with Flamer mechanics is no threat.

What does tripling rate of fire but keeping damage and heat per shot and dissipation at original values do? It creates weapons that are three times more powerful and three times as hot. Yet no heat penalties except shutdown at 100%. This does several un-BattleTech things, one of which is that since different weapons got different increases in rate of fire, it threw off the entirety of BattleTech weapons balance. The AC/2 for the longest time had a higher DPS than any other AC save the AC/20, due to it having gotten a 20x increase in rate of fire.

What does instant and perfect convergence do? It places all damage from those three-times-more-powerful weapons on the same hit location, whereas I think you'll agree that in BattleTech - both rules and lore - 'Mechs were notorious for spreading their damage output around. We hit where we aim in MWO (and the Church of Skill praises that), and while hitting where one aims isn't necessarily un-BattleTech, hitting every weapon fired at that same spot sure is.

These triple-strength perfectly converged weapons also break the armour system; that system was designed for damage output of single-strength weapons that spread their damage out pseudo-randomly. So PGI had to double internals and armour in an effort to raise TTK.

And then quirks came along and made weapons even more powerful and structure and armour even more plentiful, to the point where this thread is a thing, about a 45-ton Blackjack with more structure+armour than an assault 'mech.

Edited by stjobe, 09 January 2016 - 01:02 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Alright...I think I've found the issue about Hunch to Hunch IIC to BJ comparisons...the Hunches share the same name for parts.

This causes the parts from one to be dragged towards the other, morphing it into the SupaHunch.

For some reason, it also steals the colour.

For now, we can bask in the Glory of SupaHunch while I learn how to use RegEx in PowerShell. Tomorrow.

[Mcgral18]

Or, I guess I could just do individual comparisons in the mean time:

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

Now the Nova to the Blackjack, Blackjack to Hunchback and anything else it blatantly outclasses.

That XML code still doesn't include why a single flamer can overpower the heat of 26 doubles to total shutdown in a matter of 2 minutes. Which is why Smurfy, though aware of it, says it is nearly impossible to explain or quantify.
---------------
Side note: Nova and Marauder, sans quirks, stock armor/structure values:
498
608

Then again, Nova's over 14 meters tall in MWO, when its supposed to be 8.6 meters (and without torso twist).
Marauder's also evidently over 14 meters according to that picture... but it's supposed to be around 12 meters tall. o.O;

Size could have made sense here with their inherit differences, without having to resort to quirks galore.

Among the most reasonably sized Meds.
Rest of the album ↓↓
http://imgur.com/a/tXeSJ

I do have the MAD a touch below 14M according to Blender. Highest point of the ST, near the AMS, is ~14.5M

Edited by Mcgral18, 09 January 2016 - 01:53 AM.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

stjobe, on 08 January 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Poor little ****. I also hate that it took this ridiculous situation to see Koniving come back. (At least I havent seen him here in a while). I loved my Blackjacks before they got god tier quirks. **** you posers.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 09 January 2016 - 02:53 AM.

[Koniving]

Mcgral18, on 09 January 2016 - 01:53 AM, said:

Or, I guess I could just do individual comparisons in the mean time:





Among the most reasonably sized Meds.
Rest of the album ↓↓
http://imgur.com/a/tXeSJ

I do have the MAD a touch below 14M according to Blender. Highest point of the ST, near the AMS, is ~14.5M

Meaning it's shorter than the Centurion. So how come the Centurion isn't so dang buffed?

[Koniving]

Sigilum Sanctum, on 09 January 2016 - 02:52 AM, said:

Poor little ****. I also hate that it took this ridiculous situation to see Koniving come back. (At least I havent seen him here in a while). I loved my Blackjacks before they got god tier quirks. **** you posers.

Herro there!

I've been scarce on MWO itself, but always lurking the new player help thread to help new players settle in. I have been working on BT-related stuff. Mostly 3D models. Life would be so much easier if I'd swallow my pride and learn the un-user-friendly Blender, but until my stubborn streak wanes I'm using the much friendlier Wings 3d. Sadly it means I have to make my own models unless someone's willing to make "Separated" 3DS exports of the Blender extracts of MWO's models. (My wings crashes when I try to "separate" the pieces myself.)

Til then, I'm collecting artwork and making 3D models of said artwork, then will mix and match so that my mech variants not only are armed differently but look distinctly different too. BJ-1 and its sub variants may look similar (short of the DC since it's a dual-cockpit), but the BJ-2 will look a generation different, as will the BJ-3. Will see how well I keep this up.

In the mean time, I've been really debating doing a Timber Wolf, then giving it a paintjob with big red lips and googily eyes... and using it in an "All Systems Nominal" style animation. "I'mmah firin' mah lazer!" Half the fuselage tears open so it can vomit rainbow lasers.

Heh...heh heh...heh... >.>

[Sjorpha]

El Bandito, on 08 January 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

You must also include armor--which is more effective than structures in defense, into consideration.

Storm Crow has 561 effective health (structure+armor) + Clan XL.

Blackjack has a total of 629 effective health, including quirks. (that amounts to only 10 HP more per location than the Crow) Most of them uses IS XL, with insta-death on ST loss.

100 tonners such as the Dire wolf has 927 effective health, without quirks, with buttloads of guns.

Now this is just wrong. A King Crab can certainly tank more shots than the Blackjack if both are stationary. If you include speed and size into equation, then an Arctic Cheetah can tank more shots than the Blackjack.

Having structure value comparable to a King Crab doesn't mean it can tank better than it if it also does not have as much armor as a King Crab.

My best deck has two Blackjack-1X, and I can tell you, from my over hundred CW matches with it, that it is not a tank. Assault mechs such as King Crab and Stalker are way more tanky than Blackjacks and can withstand focused fire better. Heck even Gargoyle can tank better than the Blackjack when it comes to brawls.

As always El Bandito, you are a voice of reason in the sea of hyperbole.

[Koniving]

So after being told that it's not power creep unless the IS outclasses the Clans... I wanted to point out that power creep has been a rampantly steady thing in MWO for a long... long time.

Lets begin with closed beta. Back then when the skill tree was first introduced into the game itself, it gave intervals of 2.5% for basics, then at Elite you got 5% for basics, and at Master you got 7.5%.

Then it was 4%, 8%, 12%. It grew and grew until it hit 7.5 to 27.5% for basics and once you hit elites your basics go 15 to 55% Seriously, 55%?! It stayed there, and only recently they talked about bringing it down. Despite how this was on the agenda in 2013. And people cried when it happened.

In fact before the game was even started, skill trees were going to be BRANCHING. You had to choose, THIS or THAT. Better this, or improved that? Official PGI-made Diagram Circa Feb 3rd, 2012.


But the power creep began before that, even, with the Dragon. PGI wanted to bring in BT's Design Quirks. The Dragon was the first experiment. An improved Gyro keeps the Dragon more steady than usual mechs of its size. PGI's implementation however was "For ramming purposes, Dragon weighs 100 tons." The result, 100 tons + 81+ kph = Dragon Bowling! Surprise? Nope.

But wait, power creep began even before then! When MWO only had a Jenner, Hunchback, Catapult and Atlas we already had power creep. It came in the form of 3x or greater firing rates to BT weapons with 100% rated damage and heat in a single firing. This first and foremost was the very first stage of power creep in MWO. These weapons had pinpoint accuracy but was managed by delayed convergence, meaning each time the distance to target changed dramatically, the 'reticule' gradually went from 1 meter to where the target actually was in the travel time of 1 second. Of course that got removed, but the pinpoint instant accuracy with front loaded damage never did.

Having the weapons front loaded from their "10 second summary" results (even a 5 second summary result would have been significantly preferable to how they are now), PGI has created a monster of power creep. Normal BT speeds aren't adequate to fight THAT kind of firepower, with as many hardpoints as PGI is cramming on things because "not enough hardpoints, worthless mech". Not only that but our 1x armor/structure isn't enough, so double it! Our double heatsinks are too powerful with tiny weapon loadouts of 4 medium lasers WHEN using our power-creeped "pro skillz tree", so nerf DHS!

Now not only do we need more ammunition than would EVER make sense in Battletech, we need more tonnage to carry that ammo AND enough heatsinks to function AND we need faster engines! Insert the requirement of XL engines! Insert astronomical prices for repair and rearm! Now bring in Clans when standard engines aren't particularly viable, so we need to quirk the IS. But IS is too strong, so we quirk the Clans. Wait, Clans too strong, quirk the IS some moar!

Then there's the range dilemma. While not expressly stated in the rules, the lore of Clan weapons is that their established "long ranges" are the highest expected ranges of the typical freeborn Clan pilot equipped with the Clan weapon on a Clan machine's accuracy and precision when targeting a stationary 'Mech of average size. Not just the weapon itself, but with the stability and accuracy of a Clan machine in the hands of a hardened Clan pilot. So it's a combination of things. It's not take Clan weapon, put in IS machine, instant win. Not only that, but that's the norm for hitting a stationary machine (mind you the Mechs are not as big as they are in MWO, Bt's tallest mech as of 3055 was the Executioner. Meaning 14.4 meters was the tallest thing you EVER saw barreling towards you with autocannons and PPCs at the ready.

Short of something flying anyway. So back to the weapons: The way MWO is set up, the "Long Range" is the "optimal range" at which you'll do full damage, and you're damn near pinpoint accurate regardless of range (short of bullet drop). Here comes the kicker: This allows a b.s. lead to Clan tech. It should be Clan tech is more accurate to their range, while IS tech falls short of accuracy. Weaker lasers, sure. I could buy that. But weaker autocannons at Clan range with IS tech? Just b.s. They should be less accurate to that range but still full damage so if you have the skill to make those shots hit they had better wreck someone's ****! Clan/IS LRMs? By making Clan LRMs stream, they actually make them MORE likely to make better hits even if you are also more likely to shoot more down. Instead, make them all stream (AMS needs more help anyway), but then be more lore appropriate. Clan LRMs fire straight forward, IS LRMs fire up and over. This is the original reason for the IS 180 meter min ACCURACY range over the Clan no min accuracy range for LRMs. Stream fired and firing forward, Clan LRMs are actually less likely to hit faster, smaller targets as it should be.

Overall, IS/Clan missiles should fire once per cycle, doing full damage. Ballistics, akin to their lore, should be churning out "4 to 100" shots per cycle, with variants custom made for different mechs (a far better solution to 'quirks', with optional variants of each weapon so that players can gear towards firing less often with more front-loaded weaponry or being able to fire more often with less front-loaded DPS-oriented weaponry). Lasers, it is said the average medium laser is fired 3 times in 10 seconds, so basically if we keep the current firing rate but split the heat and damage to a single cycle (aka rated for 10 seconds)... Well damn, we can have 1x armor and smaller mechs will be significantly more capable of fighting... without having to resort to high speeds and XL engines. We could even have brawling lights. XL dependence could drop significantly, removing most of the initial power creep we've suffered.

To elaborate better, please refer to this post about the differences between Atlas variants with a lore spin on stock weapon variants.

If we had BT Campaign "Customization" rules instead of BT "Make your own mech Construction" rules for MWO's customization, variants would mean shitloads more than "Bro, do you even hardpoint?" Even within a chassis, you may choose one variant for vastly superior armor, or another for awesome firepower, or another for incredible speed, or even improved speed/armor, or better armor/firepower, or a speedy glass cannon. You get this in return for sacrifice in that. Or even a fairly balanced all 'rounder like say the Hunchback.

A brief but extremely incomplete demonstration of this to try for yourself can be found here.

What I'm saying is that Quirks are the latest in a sea of power creep bulldung that's been slung in our faces in the form of bandaid after bandaid after quick fix after strips of ductape to keep our bettying down to a minimum about "Omg balance!" and "Zomg broken!" and "why so powerful?" and "Why so weak?" Power creep has been bouncing up and down, but it's steadily been getting worse and worse... and what I hate to say but have to say is this: It's been here since day one.

Edit: Added links.

Edited by Koniving, 09 January 2016 - 08:00 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Koniving, on 08 January 2016 - 06:05 PM, said:

Quirks began as a 5 to 10% increase in performance to make selecting fewer hardpoints more appealing than selecting more hardpoints.

Correction, going back... Quirks began as a 2.5 to 5% increase or decrease in performance to make selecting fewer hardpoints more appealing than selecting more hardpoints.

Er...what?

The very first quirk pass was the one with all the insane firepower quirks like 50% erppc heatgen TDR-9S, 50% MPL range + other stuff TDR-5SS, 50% AC5 cooldown DRG-1N, super strong small pulse quirks on FS-A, insane LL quirks on the Stalker 4N, 30% mpl heat FS-S and so on.

Weapon quirks have been, for the most part, toned down since then, not up. The only big thing really added on the plus side since then is all the structure and agility quirks in this latest quirk pass.

[Koniving]

Sjorpha, on 09 January 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Er...what?

The very first quirk pass was the one with all the insane firepower quirks like 50% erppc heatgen TDR-9S, 50% MPL range + other stuff TDR-5SS, 50% AC5 cooldown DRG-1N, super strong small pulse quirks on FS-A, insane LL quirks on the Stalker 4N, 30% mpl heat FS-S and so on.

Weapon quirks have been, for the most part, toned down since then, not up. The only big thing really added on the plus side since then is all the structure and agility quirks in this latest quirk pass.

Quirks BEGAN long before IS had ANY of those.

They were put on Clanmechs. In fact when Quirks were first introduced, they were EXCLUSIVE to Clan mechs, and stated to be a design to encourage the user of fewer hardpoints over more hardpoints.

The first quirks were 2.5 to 5% (in the case of TBR S it was 7.5%)

Timber Wolf left arm, 1 energy hardpoint had a 2.5% better firing rate than the two Timber Wolf left arms with 2 energy hardpoints. The Timber Wolf S side torsos both had a 7.5% greater heat damage to self for overheating, which combined made it 15% greater overheat damage. This was toned down to 5% each, then 2.5% because PGI was "ruining Clans." (Edit, looking back they never toned it down to 2.5% each for heat damage).

This, of course, was on several of the first 8 Clan Omnimechs in July 7, 2014, and only months later August 2014 did it ever get a first layer for IS mechs. It came in the form of the Awesome 8Q and exclusively the Awesome 8Q. Later (Nov 03 2014) it was discussed that medium mechs would get a second pass as well as the 8Q's adjustments, with enhancements up to 28% to IS mech agility as well as the listing of Victor and Highlander's nerfs in agility. People were pissed! Then came December 2014 when they really began to appear and they weren't that bad either. I was already talking about power creep but it was pretty mild.

Then came the Sean (NGNG)-encouraged and Russ-enabled "50%" quirks on the Thunderbolt's ER PPCs, but that's AFTER Russ took over post-January 2015 (6 months AFTER Quirks began). Paul didn't do that, Paul's starting quirks didn't dare hit above 20% in most cases (the exception being the Awesome 8Q). So they jumped from 7.5% tops to 20%, and then with Russ they jumped to 50% extremes.

First IS quirked mech, the "5 minute Awesome", alongside my Warhawk making a final stand against timber wolves, kitfoxes and spiders, and dire wolves. August 17th, 2014. This is before any of the IS Thunderbolt quirk nonsense, and long after the Clans have quirks. In fact my Warhawk was loaded with quirk penalties for slower missile firing rates.

The Awesome has LESS than 225 armor (+ quirks), with XL engine and single heatsinks.. Named the 5 minute Awesome because it can fire its PPCs non-stop for 5 minutes in standard chain fire before even reaching 98% heat on Alpine.) And its quirks were pathetically weak to the quirks Russ put in to MWO.

(Last addition/edit. Sorry for the quote notification spam you probably got.)

Edited by Koniving, 09 January 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[TyphonCh]

When I read Koniving's post I felt anger for PGI's lack of reasoning and foresight. Good read. It wasn't boring and it makes so much sense. I wish we had guys like him working at PGI with such a level head hahaha... I'm definately not one to bash the devs but when it comes to balance the guy in charge needs to have a word with himself.

[WatDo]

I didnt bother to read most of this thread complaining about an XL-engined IS medium, i just wanna say here what I've said before; Dont nerf the BJ, give other mechs structure quirks on the same level, bam the game is fun again.

Edited by WatDo, 09 January 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[Wintersdark]

WatDo, on 09 January 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

I didnt bother to read most of this thread complaining about an XL-engined IS medium, i just wanna say here what I've said before; Dont nerf the BJ, give other mechs structure quirks on the same level, bam the game is fun again.

Koniving's posts above explain why this is a dumb idea.

Power creep.

"Just buff everything else" is not a good plan.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

stjobe, on 09 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

I said it was a few of the bigger fails. And, by definition, rules certainly do make BattleTech BattleTech.

No, no they don't, because under that definition I could have different factions completely with aliens and as long as the rules were the same it could still be Battletech, which is not the case. Now if you were talking about TT, yes, rules do in fact make TT the way it is, but there is more to Battletech than that.

stjobe, on 09 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

Is heat penalties a large part of BattleTech, be it TT rules, novels. or fluff? Yes, I think you have to agree they are. Grayson Carlyle staring down Lori Kalmar's Locust while on foot and armed only with an Inferno launcher comes to mind. In MWO there are no heat penalties except shutdown at 100%. If Lori had been in MWO she would have laughed at Grayson and ignored him. A single SRM with Flamer mechanics is no threat.

The question you have to ask though is does it add any depth to game? Does it add some mechanism for balancing? Not really, those penalties are not really big enough to balance anything since there won't be aiming penalties.

stjobe, on 09 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

The AC/2 for the longest time had a higher DPS than any other AC save the AC/20, due to it having gotten a 20x increase in rate of fire.

And yet it is still one of the worst ACs? So what does that tell you about the balance without BV (which has its own share of problems).....?

stjobe, on 09 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

What does instant and perfect convergence do? It places all damage from those three-times-more-powerful weapons on the same hit location

This is a misleading statement, because the damage is actually half as powerful now with doubled health. They are three times more powerful because they can repeat the alpha, not because they can do even more pinpoint damage. A 40 pinpoint alpha is equivalent to a single AC20 hit.

stjobe, on 09 January 2016 - 12:59 AM, said:

about a 45-ton Blackjack with more structure+armour than an assault 'mech.

False, it has more structure than an assault mech, but has about equivalent structure+armor to a 55-60 tonner.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 January 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[Koniving]

So...

Koniving, on 11 January 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Just got out of a match. Seems you aren't online, though I see why, there's a few hours separation.
Results of match for me:

3 ML, 1 LBX, 5 MGs. 3 Killing Blows as solo kills all with most damage dealt, 4 kill assists. Seems this old dog still has it.

Or it's a crapload of quirks making this thing stare down, in order:
A Centurion AH.
A FULL HEALTH Timber Wolf loaded with laser/missile vomit.
Then immediately after the Timber, a Stormcrow with 6 ER ML that was already attacking me!

And then several other mechs with the help of a team that finally showed up.
Mind you, I'm using an XL 180 engine. 64 kph + speed tweak.

<.<
>.>
Edit: I would like to point out that each of these were engaged at ranges of less than 200 meters, enclosing and advancing directly into them (to the point that the Timber Wolf was backing away while firing to put DISTANCE between me and him). The centurion and I made circles; himself much faster than me and he despite it being me dropping in the middle of his 4 mech lance, he perished while I just lost some armor. The Stormcrow (and timber wolf) were both part of that lance, I blew the stormcrow's leg off then went for the cockpit shot. After the three of them I still had armor left on all but my rear.

This mech doesn't need this kind of huge structure buffs to be competitive.

Edited by Koniving, 11 January 2016 - 03:55 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

So in summary, they should probably tone down some of the BJ structure quirks.


Also, no offense, but a 313 dmg game isn't exactly showing any level of awesomeness.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 January 2016 - 04:11 PM.

[Sandpit]

yay
another thread talking about how PGI doesn't know how to balance things.

Don't we have enough of those already with the same people saying the same thing, just in a different thread?