195 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Gamuray, on 08 January 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

I will say this right now man. Don't be a jerk.


On a different note: (and actually contributing to the conversation)

Not everyone plays to win, and some people find only playing optimal builds to get boring and not challenging. So to challenge themselves (and arguably their teammates, since the game has zero singleplayer) they will take "sub-par" builds. If they enjoy it, then good. Winning is not the main purpose of a GAME. The main purpose of a GAME is to get entertainment.

If they don't enjoy running the best stuff all the time, you can't, within reason, nag them for it.


By the way, cool mech.

Kids these days... they only understand results, not the actual journey.

I've had the pleasure of shooting long range precision rifles, at times competitively. Before moving to mexico, I had a accurized socom m1a1 that I dropped about 3000$ into. Cluster into your fist at 500 yds if you did your part.

And that is also what made it boring. Once I dialed it in, and went through the basics of breathing, the result was there. No real challenge.

You know what was fun? When I discovered Black Powder Shooting. Take that same metal gong at 500 yds, and use a rifle with open sights and a muzzle velocity less than HALF what the 7.62 is capable of. Trajectory? RAINBOW. Sights? Iron Sights.

The difference? The skill and self discipline involved.

Yes, the 7.62 was a far better rig for it. Scopes, made it much more.... "meta". And it also made it mechanical, and not challenging.

Mind you, in an actual battle? Yes, I'll take that modern sniper rifle. Because it actually matters then.

But for enjoyment, and for building skill, character, discipline? Those black powder rifles were the only answer. But it's a concept that most gamers seem unable to grasp. Only thing that matters is what makes it EASIEST to win. Not what develops the most actual skill, or challenge YOU as the player.

If I had been content to copypasta meta mechs, I would have been tier 1 long ago. If I was looking to bleed the fun and joy out of video games, I could have kept playing at comp levels, even with a gimp hand.

But I have been on teamspeak and chat and such with most of these competitive types. They say "Winning is fun". But their words and attitudes betray that. Because fun is about joy, and most of these folk have very little of that in their character. Seems to be more about making other people feel more miserable than they do. It's not "fun" it's a limp bandaid to cover over insecurity in a lot of cases.

Does that mean all competitive types are joyless, arrogant windbags? Nope (actually greatly enjoy the company of some competitive types). But the ones that are are pretty easy to spot. Got a couple lives ones here.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 January 2016 - 09:47 PM.

[BD RAIDR]

I get the most fun from coming up with, and trying, different builds, tweaking, etc.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

F6Pete, on 08 January 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

I get the most fun from coming up with, and trying, different builds, tweaking, etc.

And if you're post count is accurate F6, it's because you're new. And I don't mean that in any way to belittle the joy you're getting from that.

Part of the fun of Mechwarrior and by extension the greater Battletech universe, is experimenting with builds, trying different things. And in tabletop especially the old "Different strokes for different folks" mentality is very much there... at least, outside of the competative scene.

Once you get into competitive battletech, if the GM allows for custom builds, be prepared to see massed Gauss trying for headshots and max range. Because that's what's "Easy"

Just like here... the easy mode is massed ERLL's, or Dual Gauss snipers or what have you.

There's a meta in all forms of Battletech, even stock mechs have a meta, with the Awesome 8Q's terrifying 3ppc's being on top of that list in stock mech mode, or the Hunchback 4G's AC20 on a medium package.

But don't let that stop you, part of the joy is trying new things, some work, some don't... but you might find an odd duck build that you love, and end up sticking with.

[DaZur]

I cannot think of one good online game the top-tier meta'humpers have not ruined...

Sadly this is a human condition that is tough to resist and even more-so when "everyone else does it".

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

DaZur, on 08 January 2016 - 09:55 PM, said:

I cannot think of one good online game the top-tier meta'humpers have not ruined...

Sadly this is a human condition that is tough to resist and even more-so when "everyone else does it".

You're right... Even Chess has been ruined by "optimal play conditions" to the point that often times within the first 3 or so turns, a match has been decided.

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2016 - 09:33 PM, said:

...
It is amusing to watch folks who only understanding of mech builds come from copypasta what Gman says is good, though, lol.

To be fair, if you build your Mech to be as optimal as possible in our current environment, you will probably arrive at the same conclusions (loadouts) posted on his site.

[Johny Rocket]

Wait? Wut? I thought this was a Warhammer thread, that's a Kintaro with a body transplant.


Edit: Not saying I don't like...

Edited by Tractor Joe, 08 January 2016 - 10:07 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

Flash Frame, on 08 January 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:

It's much more fun to run something with a bit of flavor, than the cookie cutter "meta". Ain't that right?

It's more fun to run something you build and like and then copied by everyone else because it turns out to be the meta.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 08 January 2016 - 10:02 PM, said:

To be fair, if you build your Mech to be as optimal as possible in our current environment, you will probably arrive at the same conclusions (loadouts) posted on his site.

to some degree, but that again assumes that I find the current "optimal" fun or enjoyable. For the most part? I find it boring, and I would rather build my own mechs, and have fun on my slower climb up Mt Tryhard. The pile of metamech corpses beneath my feet keeps growing, and I have a grin the whole time.

And I have come to many of said conclusions, yes... on my own. Because contrary to popular belief, twitch reflexes doesn't mean one has a clue about balance or building (doesn't mean one doesn't, either). Far more enjoyable to experiment and possibly reach the same conclusion on your own accord than to simply take someone else's word for it.

Pretty much the only part that actually matters.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 08 January 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

It's more fun to run something you build and like and then copied by everyone else because it turns out to be the meta.

actually when everyone started aping my 2xAC5/2ERPPC Dragonslayer poptart, is when I started finding it less enjoyable to play. It was much more fun when the "experts" were calling it DoA as me and RobinSage were killing them with it.

The Meta is not hard to decipher or build for. For what's harder, but more rewarding is finding ways to build on your own terms and competing WITH the cookie cutter meta. The same way it's far more satisfying to build and tune your own race car than it ever would be to take an out of the box one.

But most kids today would grab the low effort premade racer.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 08 January 2016 - 10:13 PM.

[fbj]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

Kids these days... they only understand results, not the actual journey.

I've had the pleasure of shooting long range precision rifles, at times competitively. Before moving to mexico, I had a accurized socom m1a1 that I dropped about 3000$ into. Cluster into your fist at 500 yds if you did your part.

And that is also what made it boring. Once I dialed it in, and went through the basics of breathing, the result was there. No real challenge.

You know what was fun? When I discovered Black Powder Shooting. Take that same metal gong at 500 yds, and use a rifle with open sights and a muzzle velocity less than HALF what the 7.62 is capable of. Trajectory? RAINBOW. Sights? Iron Sights.

The difference? The skill and self discipline involved.

Yes, the 7.62 was a far better rig for it. Scopes, made it much more.... "meta". And it also made it mechanical, and not challenging.

Mind you, in an actual battle? Yes, I'll take that modern sniper rifle. Because it actually matters then.

But for enjoyment, and for building skill, character, discipline? Those black powder rifles were the only answer. But it's a concept that most gamers seem unable to grasp. Only thing that matters is what makes it EASIEST to win. Not what develops the most actual skill, or challenge YOU as the player.

If I had been content to copypasta meta mechs, I would have been tier 1 long ago. If I was looking to bleed the fun and joy out of video games, I could have kept playing at comp levels, even with a gimp hand.

But I have been on teamspeak and chat and such with most of these competitive types. They say "Winning is fun". But their words and attitudes betray that. Because fun is about joy, and most of these folk have very little of that in their character. Seems to be more about making other people feel more miserable than they do. It's not "fun" it's a limp bandaid to cover over insecurity in a lot of cases.

Does that mean all competitive types are joyless, arrogant windbags? Nope (actually greatly enjoy the company of some competitive types). But the ones that are are pretty easy to spot. Got a couple lives ones here.

What in gods name does this have to do with MWO?

[Wintersdark]

F6Pete, on 08 January 2016 - 09:47 PM, said:

I get the most fun from coming up with, and trying, different builds, tweaking, etc.

This. Mechlab time is the most fun I have in MWO, and always have.

I change all my builds all the time. Playing one build - be it "meta" or not? *yawn* I'd get bored and wander off in short order.

This is why I have so many mechs (well, one reason): I can spend a couple hours rejiggering builds on a dozen mechs or so, then settle in on another day for a night of drops, maybe some CW, with a whole set of mechs with new shiny builds to play with.

[Hit the Deck]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

...For what's harder, but more rewarding is finding ways to build on your own terms and competing WITH the cookie cutter meta. The same way it's far more satisfying to build and tune your own race car than it ever would be to take an out of the box one.

For the journey it might be true but if you are seriously competing, at the end you will end up with the same car (that you built yourself) everyone drives because it's the most optimal.

Edited by Hit the Deck, 08 January 2016 - 10:17 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

And I have come to many of said conclusions, yes... on my own. Because contrary to popular belief, twitch reflexes doesn't mean one has a clue about balance or building (doesn't mean one doesn't, either). Far more enjoyable to experiment and possibly reach the same conclusion on your own accord than to simply take someone else's word for it.

Better. Then you can actually learn and understand why those builds are the meta builds.

You should be able to answer why each weapon is where it is; why you have exactly what you have. Even if you're going all metatastic, maybe you want to run one less laser, one more DHS to provide an extra full alpha, whatever. By experimenting, you learn first hand how things work, rather than just pointing and clicking to zap the lazors someone else told you to bring.

I get everyone has different preferences, but that's my angle. Mech building is the best part of the game =)

[BD RAIDR]

Flash Frame, on 08 January 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

And if you're post count is accurate F6, it's because you're new. And I don't mean that in any way to belittle the joy you're getting from that.

Part of the fun of Mechwarrior and by extension the greater Battletech universe, is experimenting with builds, trying different things. And in tabletop especially the old "Different strokes for different folks" mentality is very much there... at least, outside of the competative scene.

Once you get into competitive battletech, if the GM allows for custom builds, be prepared to see massed Gauss trying for headshots and max range. Because that's what's "Easy"

Just like here... the easy mode is massed ERLL's, or Dual Gauss snipers or what have you.

There's a meta in all forms of Battletech, even stock mechs have a meta, with the Awesome 8Q's terrifying 3ppc's being on top of that list in stock mech mode, or the Hunchback 4G's AC20 on a medium package.

But don't let that stop you, part of the joy is trying new things, some work, some don't... but you might find an odd duck build that you love, and end up sticking with.

I totally understand what you're saying.

Wintersdark, on 08 January 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

I change all my builds all the time. Playing one build - be it "meta" or not? *yawn* I'd get bored and wander off in short order.

This is why I have so many mechs (well, one reason): I can spend a couple hours rejiggering builds on a dozen mechs or so, then settle in on another day for a night of drops, maybe some CW, with a whole set of mechs with new shiny builds to play with.

Yes!

Edited by F6Pete, 08 January 2016 - 10:26 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Hit the Deck, on 08 January 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

For the journey it might be true but if you are seriously competing, at the end you will end up with the same car (that you built yourself) everyone drives because it's the most optimal.

perhaps, but I'll also be better equipped because of what I learned along the way. And it's always interesting to find what other people miss.

[Sader325]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 January 2016 - 09:44 PM, said:

Kids these days... they only understand results, not the actual journey.

I've had the pleasure of shooting long range precision rifles, at times competitively. Before moving to mexico, I had a accurized socom m1a1 that I dropped about 3000$ into. Cluster into your fist at 500 yds if you did your part.

And that is also what made it boring. Once I dialed it in, and went through the basics of breathing, the result was there. No real challenge.

You know what was fun? When I discovered Black Powder Shooting. Take that same metal gong at 500 yds, and use a rifle with open sights and a muzzle velocity less than HALF what the 7.62 is capable of. Trajectory? RAINBOW. Sights? Iron Sights.

The difference? The skill and self discipline involved.

Yes, the 7.62 was a far better rig for it. Scopes, made it much more.... "meta". And it also made it mechanical, and not challenging.

Mind you, in an actual battle? Yes, I'll take that modern sniper rifle. Because it actually matters then.

But for enjoyment, and for building skill, character, discipline? Those black powder rifles were the only answer. But it's a concept that most gamers seem unable to grasp. Only thing that matters is what makes it EASIEST to win. Not what develops the most actual skill, or challenge YOU as the player.

If I had been content to copypasta meta mechs, I would have been tier 1 long ago. If I was looking to bleed the fun and joy out of video games, I could have kept playing at comp levels, even with a gimp hand.

But I have been on teamspeak and chat and such with most of these competitive types. They say "Winning is fun". But their words and attitudes betray that. Because fun is about joy, and most of these folk have very little of that in their character. Seems to be more about making other people feel more miserable than they do. It's not "fun" it's a limp bandaid to cover over insecurity in a lot of cases.

Does that mean all competitive types are joyless, arrogant windbags? Nope (actually greatly enjoy the company of some competitive types). But the ones that are are pretty easy to spot. Got a couple lives ones here.

You know what Bishop? You're right.

Doing things the easy way is no way to build character or discipline. Infact I think we can take this one step farther.

I suggest that you simply cut off your own hand.

Now hold on a moment, I know what you're thinking: "But Sader, I need my hands to do things like spread peanut butter on my sandwiches!"

HOLD ON A MOMENT BISHOP. Think about how much CHARACTER and DISCIPLINE you would gain by figuring out how to put peanut butter on your sandwich without hands.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

fbj, on 08 January 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

What in gods name does this have to do with MWO?

Aww, it's ok FBJ, I know reading comprehension is hard for some people.

[Wintersdark]

Hit the Deck, on 08 January 2016 - 10:15 PM, said:

For the journey it might be true but if you are seriously competing, at the end you will end up with the same car (that you built yourself) everyone drives because it's the most optimal.

It's really nice to not be competitive in the slightest little bit. Then there's no push to do that, no need to just copy someone else's builds.

Oddly, I still do quite well.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 08 January 2016 - 10:20 PM, said:

Better. Then you can actually learn and understand why those builds are the meta builds.

You should be able to answer why each weapon is where it is; why you have exactly what you have. Even if you're going all metatastic, maybe you want to run one less laser, one more DHS to provide an extra full alpha, whatever. By experimenting, you learn first hand how things work, rather than just pointing and clicking to zap the lazors someone else told you to bring.

I get everyone has different preferences, but that's my angle. Mech building is the best part of the game =)

you also learn what works with the idiosyncrasies of your own playstyle, preferences, habits and even your gear.

I play with a crippled right hand, so where I would once use a really fancy mouse? What did I learn? As long as I can adjust the DPI, 3-5 buttons is all I really need or will use. I build mechs along 3 basic fire channels. Buttons 4-5 are cool shot and Airstrike.

I'm playing on a potato laptop since Hurricane Patricia. What does that mean? Half the FPS most people are running. So I adjust my builds and playstyle accordingly.

Etc.

Just a few of the considerations one can maximize around when one prefers to "DIY".

Sader325, on 08 January 2016 - 10:22 PM, said:

You know what Bishop? You're right.

Doing things the easy way is no way to build character or discipline. Infact I think we can take this one step farther.

I suggest that you simply cut off your own hand.

Now hold on a moment, I know what you're thinking: "But Sader, I need my hands to do things like spread peanut butter on my sandwiches!"

HOLD ON A MOMENT BISHOP. Think about how much CHARACTER and DISCIPLINE you would gain by figuring out how to put peanut butter on your sandwich without hands.

Ah yes, losing composure much?