50 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Winterburn, on 08 January 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

PPCs are long-rang weapons with slow-arse moving projectiles.

They are usable only if you manage to engage at around 500 m for a dozen seconds at a time, trade well and find a quiet place to cool down when not shooting. Also you gotta have someone fend off lights and brawlers, because the second they know you sport PPCs they are going to be lower-leg-actuator-deep up your arse. The hardest part about using PPCs is to justify not bringing anything else instead.

Clan ERPPCs can be fun though. Fine for Nova poptarting and nasty DireWolf Gauss+ERPPC with TC Mk VII shenanigans.

P.S. Edited to avoid PC filter obfuscation. Seriously, I suspect that PGI hired PC Principle at some point.

Wrong, PPC's are medium range weapons akin to the AC10, in fact, that's exactly what they are, Energy AC10's essentially.

The ER variety just let's you hit at a bit longer range, or shorter range, than the standard.

People keep trying to say PPC's are "long range" weapons, when they're not, they CAN function at long range, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD be using them that way.

[Scar Glamour]

Flash Frame, on 08 January 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

Wrong, PPC's are medium range weapons akin to the AC10, in fact, that's exactly what they are, Energy AC10's essentially.

The ER variety just let's you hit at a bit longer range, or shorter range, than the standard.

People keep trying to say PPC's are "long range" weapons, when they're not, they CAN function at long range, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD be using them that way.

Well, since you such an avid expert on weapon systems, let's look at the stats together, shall we?

AC/10

Damage 10.00

Heat 3.00

Cooldown 2.50

Range 450

Max Range 900

Slots 7

Tons 12

Speed 950

DPS 4.00

DPH 3.33

DPS/T 0.33

HPS 1.20

PPC

Damage 10.00

Heat 10.00

Cooldown 4.00

Range 90 - 540

Max Range 1,080

Slots 3

Tons 7.0

Speed 1,100

DPS 2.50

DPH 1.00

DPS/T 0.36

HPS 2.50

You just look at that! PPC has about 10% less DPS per ton than AC/10 at more than 2 times the heat per second and 3.33 times more heat per shot! A most fascinating difference indeed. Only damage, range, and projectile speed are comparable.

I guess you can offset high recycle time with cramming in more PPCs, since they are lighter and occupy less space. You can even pack more heat sinks, because you don't need no PPC ammo either. But with PPC heat will still be the limiting factor.

How many times can you shoot your PPCs in a row without overheating with, let's say, 20 DHS? 8, maybe, 10? Then you're off for 10-20 secs worth of cooldown time. All the while a Mech with AC/10 or even c-LPLs will continue blasting your face or side torsos as luck would have it. In that 10 seconds of cooling a heavy brawler can walk right up to you for some quality hugging time together too. So unless you can teleport to base when you reach your heat threshold, engaging with PPCs at medium range is very ill-advised. Much unlike AC/10 which give you a range boost compared to AC/20 and allow you to spread much better than if you have been using (U)AC/5.

Now how these two weapons systems are "equivalent" is simply beyond me. But I guess that's why we have so many badass weathered MechWarriors in this thread to enlighten us.

[pbiggz]

paul happened

[VinJade]

@Winterburn
Normally he would be correct.
PPCs are energy AC 10s from the real Battletech game.
here on MW:O they F'ed up the PPCs so that they could make the ER LLs the sniper weapons and screwed the weapon over so bad that one would have thought that the Standard PPC was of clan tech or something.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Winterburn, on 08 January 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

Well, since you such an avid expert on weapon systems, let's look at the stats together, shall we?

AC/10

Damage 10.00

Heat 3.00

Cooldown 2.50

Range 450

Max Range 900

Slots 7

Tons 12

Speed 950

DPS 4.00

DPH 3.33

DPS/T 0.33

HPS 1.20

PPC

Damage 10.00

Heat 10.00

Cooldown 4.00

Range 90 - 540

Max Range 1,080

Slots 3

Tons 7.0

Speed 1,100

DPS 2.50

DPH 1.00

DPS/T 0.36

HPS 2.50

You just look at that! PPC has about 10% less DPS per ton than AC/10 at more than 2 times the heat per second and 3.33 times more heat per shot! A most fascinating difference indeed. Only damage, range, and projectile speed are comparable.

I guess you can offset high recycle time with cramming in more PPCs, since they are lighter and occupy less space. You can even pack more heat sinks, because you don't need no PPC ammo either. But with PPC heat will still be the limiting factor.

How many times can you shoot your PPCs in a row without overheating with, let's say, 20 DHS? 8, maybe, 10? Then you're off for 10-20 secs worth of cooldown time. All the while a Mech with AC/10 or even c-LPLs will continue blasting your face or side torsos as luck would have it. In that 10 seconds of cooling a heavy brawler can walk right up to you for some quality hugging time together too. So unless you can teleport to base when you reach your heat threshold, engaging with PPCs at medium range is very ill-advised. Much unlike AC/10 which give you a range boost compared to AC/20 and allow you to spread much better than if you have been using (U)AC/5.

Now how these two weapons systems are "equivalent" is simply beyond me. But I guess that's why we have so many badass weathered MechWarriors in this thread to enlighten us.

Dude, I'm NEVER talking from the stupid "here's the smurfy stats" bs.

I don't play mathwarrior, I'm talking from an in universe LORE perspective. In the LORE, PPC's are essentially an energy AC10.

[VinJade]

@Flash Frame and you are correct, looking at the stats* the PPC with the extra HS(5+ extra) would easily wight the same however only true diff the PPC would have is the min range and that it has longer reach then the AC 10.

*Which more or less matches the lore.

Edited by VinJade, 08 January 2016 - 11:53 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

PPC suck, slow, terrible dmg/heat/weight/space efficiency compared to the OP'd laser vomit...yeah, no good reason to take them.

sadly.

[VinJade]

they need to fix them, but of course you don't want them to be close to being a threat that the OP ER LLs are.

and iirc someone said it was Paul that said the PPCs will not be allowed to be used as sniper weapons and then messed up the PPC so bad that you cannot even call it a PPC.

What even sadder is that the ER LL should only be barely longer range than the standard PPC but heaven forbid that they would allow any other energy weapon compete with the ER LLs.

by the way did they say why their was so against PPCs being true weapons and not a heavy paper weight?

[oldradagast]

PPC's are junk now, and it should be obvious.

Advantage of PPC:
- Front loaded damage
- Slightly higher range than a large pulse laser (the main competition for the PPC because of weight)
- NOTE that the above two are both somewhat negated because PPC's are slow to travel.

Advantage of a large Pulse Laser
- Less heat
- Technically more damage (often not true because of the need to hold the beam on target)
- No minimum range
- Hitscan weapon

So, the two small advantages PPC's have are negated by the fact that they travel slowly. Nobody cares if they have great range or front-loaded damage if the target keeps being missed. For this, you pay a price of higher heat and a stupid minimum range limit on damage.

Various things can be done to balance them, but the 0 damage under 90m limit HAS to go. It makes no sense - why does the huge ball of lightning that fires from my mech magically do nothing until a target is 90m away? - and it is fast and obvious way to at least make the PPC something other than a total paperweight weapon. Devoting 7 tons + heatsinks to a weapon that is dead weight in a brawl is a bad idea.

Note that none of this even discusses the odd hitbox issues with PPC's, where they seem to explode when getting near terrain, and yet pass between the small gaps on a mech without dealing damage.

Edited by oldradagast, 09 January 2016 - 07:17 AM.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Aresye Kerensky, on 08 January 2016 - 08:54 PM, said:

You're like a baseball player bringing a wiffle ball bat, saying, "It's okay guys, I've hit a few home runs with this before," before you proceed to lose the game

Actually I seem to win most of the time. I get top scores consistently in a match, and that is all that matters to me. Win or lose, there is only so much 1 player can do in a 12 man pug drop, and if he does better than most players with PPC's on a consistent basis, well I can only conclude that the " wiffle bat " is just hard to use for your average joe, or the average joe doesnt know how to build PPC mechs, or the average joe is just bad at the game.

LordKnightFandragon, on 09 January 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

PPC suck, slow, terrible dmg/heat/weight/space efficiency compared to the OP'd laser vomit...yeah, no good reason to take them.

sadly.

they dont suck. you suck at using them. L2P.

[oldradagast]

Alwrath, on 09 January 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

Actually I seem to win most of the time. I get top scores consistently in a match, and that is all that matters to me. Win or lose, there is only so much 1 player can do in a 12 man pug drop, and if he does better than most players with PPC's on a consistent basis, well I can only conclude that the " wiffle bat " is just hard to use for your average joe, or the average joe doesnt know how to build PPC mechs, or the average joe is just bad at the game.

they dont suck. you suck at using them. L2P.

Wrong. PPC's objectively "suck" - just look at my post above. There is ONE and ONLY ONE use for them, and that is high-speed sniping, usually with jump-jets, because it is difficult to hold a large pulse laser on target during the jump. That's it. From the viewpoint of heat, total potential damage dealt, probability of dealing damage (hitscan vs. slow projectile), and minimum range limitations, the PPC is in all ways inferior to the Large Pulse Laser.

If they work for you, fine. But to claim that "it works for me, therefore everyone else is an idiot who can't play" is arrogant and laughable in the face of facts and reality. Grow up.

Edited by oldradagast, 09 January 2016 - 07:19 AM.

[Alienized]

uhm... i use PPC's frequently even in CW's.... mainly on mechs that actually have a velocity quirk on it.
it really IS a mid range weapon, best used at 200-600m range.
dont let those stats irritate you, the ac10's run hotter than you think and are not really easier to hit with.

if you use PPC's in combination with ballistics or srm's they can work very well. might be even working with lrm's and dont forget the ECM disruption of a PPC hit.

[r4plez]

Paul Inouye

[Zoid]

I think we just need to gradually knock a point of heat off of them and see what happens for a while. Not being used at all? Take them down one heat. Still not being used? Take them down another point.

The basic problem with them is that they run so hot you can't afford to miss. So you could either take lasers and focus the beam for 1s (ish) or spend 1s properly leading your target. The only time they're really superior to lasers is against slow Assault 'mechs since leading is really a non-issue. Anything moving more than 70 KPH though requires very careful aim.

Now if you're an excellent shot they're still a good weapon, but the skill to benefit ratio is way off. Being an amazing shot with PPCs is only slightly better than being a mediocre shot with lasers.

Edited by Zoid, 09 January 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[Coralld]

I don't think its so much that PPCs suck and are garbage and more to do to the fact that ER/LL and LPL are just too good. Here are the base stats in regards to damage and heat compared to MWO vs. TT as these are by far the most significant factors.

MWO
IS-LL
Damage: 9
Heat: 7

VS.

TT
IS-LL
Damage: 8
Heat: 8

As you can see the regular LL when compared to their heat and damage stats are very similar and to be honest I don't really see much of an issue and think they should stay as they are.
Now on to ERLL.

MWO
IS-ERLL
Damage: 9
Heat: 8

VS.

TT
IS-ERLL
Damage: 8
Heat: 12

Again, as you can see the damage difference is minimal and not much to write home about, but the heat difference on the other hand is HUGE!!!! Highly recommend that the IS-ERLL have its heat bumped up by 1 point at least or 2 at most.
Now the CL-ERLL

MWO
CL-ERLL
Damage: 11
Heat: 10

VS.

TT
CL-ERLL
Damage: 10
Heat: 12

As you can see even the CL-ERLL, as crappy as it is in MWO, is still much cooler than its TT counterpart and their damage is a bit more as well, all be it only by a single point. I recommend not doing anything to the CL-ERLL.
Now, on to the LPL.

MWO
IS-LPL
Damage: 11
Heat: 7

VS.

TT
IS-LPL
Damage: 9
Heat: 10

The MWO IS-LPL puts out more damage than its TT counterpart but again its not much, but its heat is significantly less. Recommend increasing heat by 1 point at least or increase heat by 1 and reduce damage by 1 at most.
Now for CL-LPL

MWO
CL-LPL
Damage: 13
Heat: 10

VS.

TT
CL-LPL
Damage: 10
Heat: 10

Both MWO and TT CL-LPL both have the same heat but the MWO counterpart does around 30% more damage. Recommend reducing damage by 1 at least or by 2 at most.

As for the PPC family them selves, I think the IS-PPC is fine where its at, but the ERPPCs for both IS and CL are too hot and would benfit greatly be knocking 1 point of heat off of them and no more. We already tried the ER/PPCs with 2 or 3 points less heat before and they became a big problem.

Edited by Coralld, 09 January 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[1Grimbane]

yeah i'm still running the 4 erppc warhawk and the 3 erppc tdr.... gotta say i still like ppc's
who's down with ppc

Edited by 1Grimbane, 09 January 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[Khobai]

What happened to PPCs is that PGI failed miserably at weapon balance and now they dont have a proper niche in the game.

PPCs should be the energy sniping weapons. Not lasers. But for some reason PGI thought it would be a good idea to give the CLPL a 700m range and give IS mechs massive laser range quirks. Which created the whole long-range laser vomit meta.

In order to restore the PPC back to its rightful place PGI needs to significantly reduce the range on clan lasers and remove IS laser range quirks. They also need to increase the cooldown (make them fire slower) and projectile velocity on PPCs. Lasers should be primarily short to mid range weapons. While PPCs are mid to long range sniping weapons that cant compete with lasers at shorter ranges. Then both will have a place in the game.

Edited by Khobai, 09 January 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[FupDup]

PPCs will never be reliable at mid to long ranges while their unquirked velocity is so slow, because it allows some assault mechs to outright dodge the projectile.

[1Grimbane]

lol i brawl with er's all the time... works great for me why does a weapon HAVE to fill a CERTAIN role in your heads.... let people use the weapon systems they want to when and where they want to.. it's called personal play style.. so dam.n sorry it's ruining your immersion (keep in mind i am a TT player from the 90's)

Edited by 1Grimbane, 09 January 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[Coralld]

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

PPCs will never be reliable at mid to long ranges while their unquirked velocity is so slow, because it allows some assault mechs to outright dodge the projectile.

Sorry Fup but my BS-O-meter spiked with that statement. Come on man, your better than that.

Edited by Coralld, 09 January 2016 - 11:14 AM.