87 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

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Although it gives a baseline for what wasn't a good idea before ("cool" running, synced well with ballistics, BAD. Too fast, too cool, bad)

Except things are completely different now.

Gauss + 2 PPC doing 35 damage might have been scary at one time.

But then PGI totally screwed up by adding laser vomit. Now we have mechs doing 50 damage at 700m with lasers.

So the same reasons that PPCs were nerfed back then no longer apply. PPCs could be restored to their previous levels and laser vomit would STILL be better because of its hitscan nature and lower overall heat.

The only way to give PPCs a role in the game again is to nerf the !@#$ out of laser vomit. Make lasers short to medium range weapons. While PPCs are medium to long range energy sniping weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 09 January 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 January 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

except that jus tlike chassis that were batcrap tier one metalords 3 years ago, so much HAS changed since that what "worked then" won't necessarily work now.

Although it gives a baseline for what wasn't a good idea before ("cool" running, synced well with ballistics, BAD. Too fast, too cool, bad)

If my hint wasn't clear enough, I was actually referring to the time period of 1500 m/s velocity. I didn't mean the very original poptart era or 4 PPC Stalker era when there were no Clan mechs.

The patch that giganerfed [ER]PPC velocity from that old value (I believe it was originally 850 for PPC and 1050 for ER?) is the one that put PPCs on the endangered species list.

The cause and effect were pretty clear from there.

Edited by FupDup, 09 January 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 09 January 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

Except things are completely different now.

Gauss + 2 PPC doing 35 damage might have been scary at one time.

But then PGI totally screwed up by adding laser vomit. Now we have mechs doing 50 damage at 700m with lasers.

So the same reasons that PPCs were nerfed back then no longer apply. PPCs could be restored to their previous levels and laser vomit would STILL be better because of its hitscan nature and lower overall heat.

Lasers though are not PPFLD; and that has alway sbeen a delicate balance.. because that 50 laser damage is able to be (at least partially) mitigated by twisting. I'll take 50 dmg I can wrap around my whole mech over 35 pt chunks to one location, especially since it means they have to stay exposed to make their alpha count.

[Yosharian]

If PPCs, ER or otherwise, went 1500 default, would you use them? Standard PPCs on my Vindi 1AA go around that speed and I still can't take that mech seriously.

1500 would be a start but I still don't think it's enough.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

If my hint wasn't clear enough, I was actually referring to the time period of 1500 m/s velocity. I didn't mean the very original poptart era or 4 PPC Stalker era when there were no Clan mechs.

The patch that giganerfed [ER]PPC velocity from that old value (I believe it was originally 850 for PPC and 1050 for ER?) is the one that put PPCs on the endangered species list.

The cause and effect were pretty clear from there.

950 for ERPPC, I think.

[Khobai]

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Lasers though are not PPFLD

But theyre hitscan which is still way better than being a projectile like PPCs.

And the CLPL has high enough damage and short enough beam duration that it basically is PPFLD anyway.

Plus the CERPPC isnt entirely PPFLD either, it has splash damage. Which means the CLPL is actually capable of doing more single location damage than the CERPPC (13 damage vs 10/2.5/2.5). Not to mention the significantly lower heat of the CLPL.

The CLPL has needed a huge nerf for a long time. So does the CERML. As well as IS laser range quirks. Thats the only way you can ever restore PPCs to their niche as the energy sniping weapon.

Edited by Khobai, 09 January 2016 - 11:28 AM.

[FupDup]

Yosharian, on 09 January 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

If PPCs, ER or otherwise, went 1500 default, would you use them? Standard PPCs on my Vindi 1AA go around that speed and I still can't take that mech seriously.

1500 would be a start but I still don't think it's enough.

Mind you that I'm not literally asking for that 1500 speed, I'm just listing it for perspective and historical recording. A little bit over or a little bit under that speed could work, and other weapon attributes like cooldown can be employed if need be.

Khobai, on 09 January 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

But theyre hitscan which is still way better than being a projectile like PPCs.

And yet I remember the time when the forums cried about PPFLD being the superior master race of all weapons. DOT was seen as useless. People wanted to do things like make IS ACs DOT or PPCs DOT because OMG PPFLD BBQ.

[Bishop Steiner]

Yosharian, on 09 January 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

If PPCs, ER or otherwise, went 1500 default, would you use them? Standard PPCs on my Vindi 1AA go around that speed and I still can't take that mech seriously.

1500 would be a start but I still don't think it's enough.

It would be a good base, while allowing "dedicated" PPC mechs like VNDs, AWS, MAD, WHM, etc to get MILD quirk buffs (russ is talking a 60% velocity buff to the WHM-6r... 60 freaking percent.)

Honestly I use the unquirked C-ERPPCs on my HBK-IIC poptart just fine.

Only reason I don't run my VindiTart more is the hardpoint location, not the weapon. Even Mediums rise too slow on JJs now to want to use a waist level weapon all that often for tarting. (Nova does it better, while slower because higher amounts, comparatively)

Khobai, on 09 January 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

But theyre hitscan which is still way better than being a projectile like PPCs.

And the CLPL has high enough damage and short enough beam duration that it basically is PPFLD.

No, it really isn't.

FupDup, on 09 January 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

And yet I remember the time when the forums cried about PPFLD being the superior master race of all weapons. DOT was seen as useless. People wanted to do things like make IS ACs DOT or PPCs DOT because OMG PPFLD BBQ.

and that's because PPFLD unfettered IS the most potent form of damage available.

Only exacerbated (as you know) by the no risk, all reward method of poptarting we used to have. Rapidly rise out of cover, fire insta damage, immediately return to cover.

Lasers would have to be .25 or less duration to be remotely "same as ppfld". (because human reflex speed pretty much can't respond that fast)

[Khobai]

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No, it really isn't.

Yes really it is. Hitscan pwns slowass projectiles.

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And yet I remember the time when the forums cried about PPFLD being the superior master race of all weapons.

Because at the time that was the case. Like I said before, things are different now.

Now we have a laser that has the damage of a PPFLD weapon (13 damage), ridiculous range (~700m), short beam duration relative to its damage (1.12s), decent cooldown (3.25s), AND below average heat for the damage/range of the weapon (10 heat)

CLPL is easily the single best weapon in the game right now. Plus its obvious synergy with the CERML and the fact both can be used together and circumvent ghost heat. Thats why we have laser vomit. And laser vomit is why we have IS superquirks.

Edited by Khobai, 09 January 2016 - 11:39 AM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 09 January 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

Yes really it is. Hitscan pwns slowass projectiles.

But does hitscan pwn fast projectiles?

[Khobai]

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But does hitscan pwn fast projectiles?

Depends? is ghost heat still a thing? because PPCs even fast ones are still limited by ghost heat while laser vomit isnt.

PPC ghost heat limit is 2. lol. So PPCs are limited to 20 damage before ghost heat kicks in. 35 if you include a gauss rifle in the mix (assuming they all have the same relative projectile velocity). gauss cooldown was also nerfed too so thats a factor as well.

Laser vomit effectively has no ghost heat limit at all since you can mix and match CLPL and CERML to circumvent ghost heat. And laser vomit can do 50+ damage without ghost heat.

So yeah im gonna have to go with laser vomit as the winner... I just dont see any way out of the current predicament without nerfing the !@#$ out of lasers.

Edited by Khobai, 09 January 2016 - 11:50 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 09 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Depends? is ghost heat still a thing? because PPCs even fast ones are still limited by ghost heat while laser vomit isnt.

PPC ghost heat limit is 2. lol. So PPCs are limited to 20 damage before ghost heat kicks in. 35 if you include a gauss rifle in the mix.

Laser vomit effectively has no ghost heat limit at all since you can mix and match CLPL and CERML to circumvent ghost heat. While laser vomit can do 50+ damage without ghost heat.

odd pretty sure most lasers have GH tied to them.....

[Khobai]

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odd pretty sure most lasers have GH tied to them.....

They do. But youll reach the number of plausible lasers before youll reach the GH limit.

6 CERML and 2 CLPL is simply not a plausible build for example

[cazidin]

Yes. This is a brilliant idea. Lets make PPCs sync with Gauss again! They both can be equally terrible.

[4EVR]

Optional charge up to do damage below minimum range (etc)?

Great idea, bad presentation.

You gotta remember that people only read the first couple of sentences. So they thought you meant PPC should be limited to this charged mechanic. Need to say OPTIONAL in the first sentence and then repeat it 3 times. You can still click and fire. But you can also hold and then fire. Two modes, one weapon.

Optional.

[Zolaz]

Who is using PPCs?

[Nightmare1]

What I'm getting out of this is:
"Let's make PPCs/ERPPCs hotter for minimal gains."

Naw, thanks though.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 09 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

Depends? is ghost heat still a thing? because PPCs even fast ones are still limited by ghost heat while laser vomit isnt.

PPC ghost heat limit is 2. lol. So PPCs are limited to 20 damage before ghost heat kicks in. 35 if you include a gauss rifle in the mix (assuming they all have the same relative projectile velocity). gauss cooldown was also nerfed too so thats a factor as well.

Laser vomit effectively has no ghost heat limit at all since you can mix and match CLPL and CERML to circumvent ghost heat. And laser vomit can do 50+ damage without ghost heat.

So yeah im gonna have to go with laser vomit as the winner... I just dont see any way out of the current predicament without nerfing the !@#$ out of lasers.

And yet, PPCs at 1500 m/s were able to stand a fighting chance against Clan laser vomit during the early stages of the invasion.

You can do some minor nerfs to the very few offenders out there (e.g. don't nerf any IS lasers, only bump down a few Clan ones like ERML and LPL) but the point remains that the conversion we're having now used to be in the exact opposite direction. There was a time when people asked, "Why use lasers or anything else when I can use PPCs and ACs?"

Now we've done a flip-flop.

[Bishop Steiner]

4EVR, on 09 January 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

Optional charge up to do damage below minimum range (etc)?

Great idea, bad presentation.

You gotta remember that people only read the first couple of sentences. So they thought you meant PPC should be limited to this charged mechanic. Need to say OPTIONAL in the first sentence and then repeat it 3 times. You can still click and fire. But you can also hold and then fire. Two modes, one weapon.

Optional.

Nope, read it. And it was still a bad idea. Optional bad fixes just give PGI reason to not implement a non optional GOOD fix.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 09 January 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

950 for ERPPC, I think.

Close

1050 for ERPPCs

950 for normal PPCs

http://mwomercs.com/...13410-07jul2015