182 replies to this topic

[Joseph Ward]

Until IS mechs or drop tonnages or quirks etc get the culling/nerfing they deserve - I can't see the point in playing as Clan. This game just isn't canon now. Clan tech is supposed to be better - albeit coming at a much higher cost.

Maybe Clan mechs should be cheaper to buy now? no?

I really hope PGI sorts this out - before all trueborn and loyal clanners such as myself just give up on playing CW.

What's that? you're IS and you disagree? switch sides and let us know how you get on.

[Lupis Volk]

Joseph Ward, on 12 January 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

Until IS mechs or drop tonnages or quirks etc get the culling/nerfing they deserve - I can't see the point in playing as Clan. This game just isn't canon now. Clan tech is supposed to be better - albeit coming at a much higher cost.

Maybe Clan mechs should be cheaper to buy now? no?

I really hope PGI sorts this out - before all trueborn and loyal clanners such as myself just give up on playing CW.

What's that? you're IS and you disagree? switch sides and let us know how you get on.

Oh Clanners, first you were gods among men and now you've been properly balanced (aside from new pre-order mechs). Maybe if Clan mechs were cheaper there'd be more of you. But alas IS are cheap so many will go with them for CW. I sure know i did.

Also don't Blame IS or PGI for the fact that you clan Wolfers can't hold your turf once the big Units left.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 January 2016 - 12:51 AM.

[DivineEvil]

Joseph Ward, on 12 January 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

Until IS mechs or drop tonnages or quirks etc get the culling/nerfing they deserve - I can't see the point in playing as Clan. This game just isn't canon now. Clan tech is supposed to be better - albeit coming at a much higher cost.

Supposed to be better argument is invalid and never will be such. It is true, that drop tonnage should be equalized, considering that Clan and IS are roughly equal now as well. Nothing else is a valid course of action until then.

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Maybe Clan mechs should be cheaper to buy now? no?

Clan Omnimechs all start with XL engines and respective upgrades, that's why they're more expensive to buy. Fully optimized IS mechs worth just as much as Omni-mechs.

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I really hope PGI sorts this out - before all trueborn and loyal clanners such as myself just give up on playing CW.


What's that? you're IS and you disagree? switch sides and let us know how you get on.

Prior to rebalance, no well-known Clan loyalist deliberately changed to IS to see how IS players struggled and suffered against overpowered Clan opponents for a whole year ever since Clan Omni-mechs were introduced. Thus, we don't have an obligation to reflect on your struggles either.

Prominent Clan players and teams usually speak up for current state of balance as fine, as long as drop-deck tonnage is equal. General Clan public dominated IS mechs without much effort involved. Having an outright better tech made you and your peers unable to learn and adapt in absense of competition. Now, unfortunately, you'll have to learn the hard way how to actually make an effort in order to succeed.

Been there, did that.

Edited by DivineEvil, 12 January 2016 - 12:57 AM.

[Leggin Ho]

Drop tonnage needs to drop back to 240 for both sides and the BJ's need to lose about 1/2 of their structure buffs and it'll all be fine, the balance is mostly there, the stupid drop tonnage is making things worse than anything else.

[Divine Retribution]

Joseph Ward, on 12 January 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

What's that? you're IS and you disagree? switch sides and let us know how you get on.

Be there in a couple days. Until then, try fewer LRMs and pure ERLL boats. I know new clan players are running around in that 2 LRM 15, 2 AC/2 ebon. To my amazement I've also seen many pure LRM boats that have NO backup weapons, NO tag, NO narc, just waiting to be slaughtered as they sit around as far away from the fight as possible. Nearly as bad are the ERLL "snipers" that also stay as far back as they can while they ineffectually scratch the enemy team.

It's kind of sad to see 6 clan LRM/ERLL boats in a wave, makes me feel bad for the other 6 that are trying to be useful. It's worse when the 6 trying to be useful are 6 new players in trial mechs that still stick together and push together while the veterans sit in the back, spread out, and only play for themselves.

Playing clearly OP clan mechs made a lot of clanners lazy while the IS pilots in clearly inferior mechs became better to fight you off. Now that mechs are fairly equal the skill difference is showing. Do what we did, adapt and overcome.

Edited by Divine Retribution, 12 January 2016 - 01:17 AM.

[sycocys]

Divine Retribution, on 12 January 2016 - 01:06 AM, said:

Be there in a couple days. Until then, try fewer LRMs and pure ERLL boats.

This, and this. If you want to use poorly designed loadouts you are going to do poorly against well designed loadouts.

[L A V A]

Utterly impossible.... hardly.

We had a 6-man together last night and won 2 attacks and 1 hold territory. Even though one of our guys was using trial mechs, we won because 1) we had an excellent DL, 2) we had pugs that listened and for the most part did what they were told to do, 3) we used terrain effectively to cover our advance and 4) when it was time to push we moved decisively together as a group and focused down our opponents in a brawl.

As has been said so many times... teamwork is OP. And that applies to both IS and Clan.

So just some basic stuff for folks out there who want to play CW but are not in an organized group.

1) Drop the long range weapons and bring brawlers to CW. All that peeking and poking which works "so well" in the quick queue only gets you slaughtered in the group and CW queue.

2) Get someone to volunteer to lead the drop, then follow his orders... win or lose.

3) Play as a team.

The organized groups also have a responsibility in mentoring the new folks and providing leadership to the older hands. You just can't show up and march around and expect everyone else to try to read your minds. Reach out to your pugs and explain them the plan. Shepard them along the way and remember that without them, you probably aren't going to win. And most importantly, if you ignore them and you do lose, stop all the bad mouthing about pugs. You were the group that everyone was looking for for leadership and by ignoring them, you failed your entire team.

[Lupis Volk]

xLAVAx, on 12 January 2016 - 04:01 AM, said:

The organized groups also have a responsibility in mentoring the new folks and providing leadership to the older hands. You just can't show up and march around and expect everyone else to try to read your minds. Reach out to your pugs and explain them the plan. Shepard them along the way and remember that without them, you probably aren't going to win. And most importantly, if you ignore them and you do lose, stop all the bad mouthing about pugs. You were the group that everyone was looking for for leadership and by ignoring them, you failed your entire team.

I've had -SO-, 2323 and OMC train me since steam launch. while i may not me a lean, mean, killing machine. Sometimes i do have my moments.

I've seen it where people try to Shepard the Pugs and the Pugs ignore them. issue is some have this "i play it my own way" which is 100% reasonable or QP but in CW that's kinda selfish. CW is about team work nor 12 love wolves vs one well oiled team.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 January 2016 - 04:25 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

My understanding is that the current map imbalance is mainly because many top units switched over to IS to try out some new things. And that several will be switching back to clan soon, so in 3 months we'll be talking about how IS is unplayable

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 12 January 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

Fen Tetsudo, on 12 January 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

so in 3 months we'll be talking about how IS is unplayable

i thought that only happens when the Clanners get a new mech bundle?

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 January 2016 - 04:29 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

Divine Retribution, on 12 January 2016 - 01:06 AM, said:

I know new clan players are running around in that 2 LRM 15, 2 AC/2 ebon. To my amazement I've also seen many pure LRM boats that have NO backup weapons, NO tag, NO narc, just waiting to be slaughtered as they sit around as far away from the fight as possible. Nearly as bad are the ERLL "snipers" that also stay as far back as they can while they ineffectually scratch the enemy team.

So much this.... On a side note, I think the trial Ebon skipped leg day in the factory.... talk about underarmoured legs.

[Helsbane]

Our unit changes sides pretty regularly, and Clans are far from unplayable. Our last month was spent as Clan Green Bird and we held our own pretty damn well despite all these forum cries of "IS OP".

Not using terrain to your advantage to negate the range buffs? That's on the pilot, not the tech.
Playing the 'everyone grab a square' game? That's the team's fault, not the tech.
Bringing lurms to attack? That's the pilot's bad decisions, not the tech.

Are some IS mechs annoying? Yep, but just play smarter and they're not as 'unbeatable' as the forum ragers would have you believe. If you stand out in the open and get cut to pieces by ERLLs, that isn't your mech's fault...

[Widowmaker1981]

Joseph Ward, on 12 January 2016 - 12:16 AM, said:

Until IS mechs or drop tonnages or quirks etc get the culling/nerfing they deserve - I can't see the point in playing as Clan. This game just isn't canon now. Clan tech is supposed to be better - albeit coming at a much higher cost.

Maybe Clan mechs should be cheaper to buy now? no?

I really hope PGI sorts this out - before all trueborn and loyal clanners such as myself just give up on playing CW.

What's that? you're IS and you disagree? switch sides and let us know how you get on.

Well, i wouldnt say impossible. Yes, Clan is hard mode in CW right now, but you can still win. Just need to be better than the enemy, skill is still more important than tech.

Clans have never been 'supposed' to be better in MWO, and saying clans are more expensive just means you don't understand the cost that goes into upgrading IS mechs to playable levels. However quirks are a bit OTT right now.

The map is no indication of balance - large merc units swapping sides determines the map, and those units win most of the time regardless of tech tree.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 12 January 2016 - 04:46 AM.

[Lupis Volk]

Helsbane, on 12 January 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

If you stand out in the open and get cut to pieces by ERLLs, that isn't your mech's fault...

But, but, but.....IS OP!

yeah as an IS player i have to be careful when going against Clan mechs.

Also if people want utterly impossible try Davion in CW.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 January 2016 - 04:45 AM.

[Reno Blade]

In the lore, the Clans had better tech, but also better Mechwarriors.
They were bred and trained to be the most skilled Mechwarriors and made to be better than the inner sphere heritage they were fighting against.

It was always a really silly argument that the Claners saw themselves as superior when they had the tech advantage on their side.
The inner sphere showed them they were not invincible once they got the new technology too (ER lasers, DHS and XL engines...)

If someone wants to be a real Claner, they need to be better than the rest and prove their worth on the battlefield by winning without technological advantage.

[Lupis Volk]

Reno Blade, on 12 January 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

If someone wants to be a real Claner, they need to be better than the rest and prove their worth on the battlefield by winning without technological advantage.

So that means Kcom?

[Jenovah]

Lupis Volk, on 12 January 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

So that means Kcom?

I hope so, KCOM is a fantastic opponent- I enjoy fighting against them every time;

I'll be clan today, so we shall see if my cbill rate goes down, or stays the same. I imagine it will be the same

#TeamWork

[nehebkau]

@ OP,

You are really overstating the problem because you are too emotional. The issue is only with a few mechs whose quirks make them the go-to mech for CW. The range, heat and structure quirks on the BJ, TDR, BLR and a few other mechs mean that they are the only ones you see in organized groups and they are tough to defeat specially with clanners who are unable to change how they do things.

Clanners are still trying to play a sniping game against IS mechs that have 1K ERLL range. They are still trying to out laservomit brawl 8 or 9 MPL mechs. I have consistently seen horrible play from clanners recently -- unable or unwilling to utilize their true advantage of being able to maintain a fairly quick and compact deathball.

In truth, however, PGI needs to revisit some range and structure quirks on some mechs -- its the whole 9s ERPPC issue resurfacing on different mechs but overall balance with non-meta mechs is pretty good.

Edited by nehebkau, 12 January 2016 - 06:43 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Lupis Volk, on 12 January 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

Oh Clanners, first you were gods among men and now you've been properly balanced (aside from new pre-order mechs). Maybe if Clan mechs were cheaper there'd be more of you. But alas IS are cheap so many will go with them for CW. I sure know i did.

Also don't Blame IS or PGI for the fact that you clan Wolfers can't hold your turf once the big Units left.

Yes... has nothing to do with the fact that 75% [excluding battlemechs, only omnimechs in this list] of the clan mechs can not use Endo steel or Ferro fibrous (where 25% have neither) and majority have poor engine selections, such as having the worse engine of the same mass or one several tons heavier for a bare few KPH faster.
or the battlemechs for clans are larger than IS counterparts and maximise their weaknesses...
Or the fact that hardwired jumpjets force mechs to have worse tonnage to work with or hardwired heatsinks make certain builds obsolete (ie duel gauss on mad dog, or duel ballistics large on the warhawk due to redundancy...
Or the fact the majoritry of these obsolete/ bad mechs (Mist lynx, Gargoyle, Mad Dog, Nova, Adder, Highlander IIC, Orion IIC, Summoner, etc) or mechs not using the meta omnipods or using missiles/ ballistics (Missile timberwolf, non ECM kitfox, hellbringer, JJ direwolf, Missile hellbringer, warhawk, etc) do not have any quirks to support these...
ER PPC on Warhawk? Er medium lasers on nova? ER PPC or LBX 10's for summoner? LBX 5 or ER large lasers on kitfox? LRM 20's or MG's for Timberwolf? SSRM 6 hellbringers etc?... nope... would be OP if they get a 10% quirk for anything on those lines...
or the clan DHS have the same heat capacity as Single heatsinks... what's that? Clan Double heatsinks are now competing with the IS Single heatsink and not the double heatsink?... for the low low cost of having 0.1 more heat dissipation... many clan mechs can't have their DHS in legs due to hardwired structure, armour, or jumpjets... so a IS mech in Water with 4 SHS in the legs would be cooler than the comparable clan mech...

Yes, I think it's quite balanced that there are as many people playing urbanmechs, Quickdraws, and highlanders as there are people playing Kitfoxes, Hellbringers, and Direwolfs these days.



With that cynical sarcasm out of the way...

Majority of the clan mechs suffer from the lack of quirks... (which as a good way to prevent omnipod pod combos making an OP meta combination of stacking quirks, I think 50% of the quirks worth should be omnipod set bonus only. so a Timberwolf D for eg can have nice ER PPC quirks when in set but poor when the Timberwolf A side torso is thrown on). there is no reason to use ER PPC on an adder over a panther, no reason to use a ballistic in a kitfox or panther over the urbanmech or panther, no reason to use an.... .... anything over anything in the gargoyle... Warhawk ER PPC boat have issues competing with the Awesome... etc.
Ever wounder why you saw people only run lazer vomit in the timberwolf instead of say... machine guns... LRM 20's... pairs of lasers instead of spamming... UAC 5... ER PPC's... etc? It isn't that much that the lazor vomit was over powered but it was that the other options was underpowered or highly unnoitractive... why put LRM 20's on a Timberwolf when a Catapult or a jagermech would have spewed a lot more in the same time and such? sure you got the large lasers (maybe) on your timberwolf but you do not have the heatsinks to keep them cool unless you are on the coldest maps... so you will not be firing both that often....

Not saying the clans didn't do some things better over IS... but it's getting to the point where the only reason you would play clans is due to the nostalgia... or maybe it is your preffered mech and you are dedicated... the same as those elites who get 1000+ damage games in locusts and urbanmechs regularly, there are those who do the same in say a nova or hellbringer these days...
I personally think the heatsink change was going a good direction but they over did it... heat capcity is to low... or heat dissipation is to low. Rather increase HD to 1.6 or 1.7 or increase HC to 1.2 or 1.3. I like the concept of making something "nerfed" in exchange of a "buff". for eg (which was some other games method of balancing) clans may have better range but they are hotter, clans may do more damage per shot/ burst/ fire / salvo but the IS have better DPS.
I personally think the best way to break the meta lazer combo for clans is to make pulse lasers in MW: O perform more like the MW4 pulse lasers, which is make them fire much more often but with lower heat and damage...

So lets have pretend clan laser pulse here... it does 20 damage but reloads every 10 seconds with 20 heat. Instead of that make it do 5.1 damage but fire every 2.5 seconds with 5.2 heat. that way in 10 seconds it does 5.4 damage with 5.8 heat. higher DPS in the same time but lower alpha and stuff. (heat being higher or lower could be a balancing factor possibly, but I personally think making it more of a DPS weapon is crippling enough in terms of meta). We gave it an advantage of having superior damage over time in exchange for worse overall alpha and instant damage per hit as well as throwing of sync with regular lasers...



Just in my humble opion...

but the only way they will make me play clans more often at the moment is if they add the Deimos, kraken, stone rhino, locust IIC, [or balance the game], or ultimately the only thing I can't resist: the Kodiak.
Otherwise, I will not be playing clans often. There's no reason to if a hunchback can out do my nova in energy builds, an awesome will always beat a warhawk in a range er ppc fight or LRM fight. Or if my adder with twin ER PPC's or ER large lasers to compete with a panther with only a single ER PPC or large laser....

But what do I know. Just because I am talking about clan mechs, stating they need help, and have clan wolf as my icon as my current unit is with clan wolf as we're loyalists it must mean I want everything in my power to make IS mechs worse than Clans and throw balance out the window just so I can **** IS mechs over in my obvious golden timberwolf right?... ignore the fact that I used to play IS and clan mechs equally and I got 130 IS mechs I love and cherish or that in early days of clans I was supporting the balance to help the IS fight the clans back.... definitely ignore all of that...

[Gas Guzzler]

Yes, utterly impossible.