89 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Communication and coordination are skills. Just like aiming, learning to position on the map, learning how to build a good mech, throwing a ball or driving a car. They take effort and energy to develop and apply.

They are not hax. They are not exploits. It's not 'cheating' to communicate and coordinate with other people better than the other team. They are the fundamental tools that separate a good team from a bad one; unit tags are irrelevant. People who are willing and able to communicate and coordinate tend to join units, hence unit players tend to make and participate in teams that beat people who are not good at communicating and coordinating.

I get the need to have a pug queue with a matchmaker. I support it, cheered for it, have fought to maintain it apart from a group queue, I'm all for it. However CW is about larger conflicts; factions vs factions. It strongly rewards those skills - communication and coordination.

Attempting to punish people for doing that well isn't just stupid, it's counter-intuitive. Splitting queues is just introducing a 2-tiered matchmaker. People who can communicate and coordinate are on one side (unit queue) and people who are not good at it are on the other (solo queue). That is split because people with those skills (communication and coordination) tend to destroy those who can not.

That's why sometimes, seemingly magically, a pug team or mixed team beats a 12man. Because that 'pug' team was full of people who communicated and coordinated. That's it. Having the same tag provides no magic super-powers, no special wall hacks or aimbots. Joining a unit however tends to (not always) help you develop communication and coordination skills, the same way using direct fire weapons helps you hone aiming and targeting skills. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that units have at their disposal to win a match that a pug team doesn't. It's not about tech or builds or even the mouse and video card you use, even the video settings.

I also get that there's a desire to split people who are not as good from people who are good. Games between good players and bad players are one-sided and the bad players don't have fun in matches where they lose consistently, especially if they are unwilling or unable to improve those skills (communication and coordination) that the other team used to beat them.

This isn't about unit tags though. The only reason it feels like units whumping on pugs is because people who communicate and coordinate tend to join units. It's not the joining units though or the unit tag or membership that makes them win against people who play solo.

It's that communication and coordination are valuable and powerful skills in a team v team game. If anyone chooses not to hone their skills at coordination and communication they will absolutely and universally lose to those who do.

That's not a failure in game design it's a failure in how someone plays. The money of a bad player spends the same as a good players money and to a degree we want to have room for people who are not that good to still play and have fun.

That doesn't equate to people who are good, who have worked on those skills that win (aim, positioning, understanding the games play and mechanics, communication and coordination), as doing something wrong. Things like splitting the queue in CW are a concession to people who are comparatively bad and the game and don't want to do what would make them better still play. It is NOT 'protecting the poor innocent puggles from those mean unit bullies'.

[Novakaine]

[Lupis Volk]

Alas the rambos ruin the experience. Once i was drop caller. i gave the team a grid to regroup on after death. only 3-4 actually would stay in that grid. Screw pugs. I'm sick of those who can't heed simple orders. They should not be in CW.

[Kilo 40]

I love how it's "punishment" to have to play against other units instead of pugs.

[Lupis Volk]

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:16 PM, said:

I love how it's "punishment" to have to play against other units instead of pugs.

this punishes everyone in a unit. From the l33t to the n00bs.

[Duke Nedo]

Since there is nothing to fight for at this point (i.e. planets don't matter), CW is just another game mode. A game mode without match making and hence very poor game quality.

I just can't get my mind around this. Why doesn't the good units want good opponents? If you are that elite, that's the only way for you to get even better.

Now, if planets had really mattered and we had a true sandbox environment, then matters would be completely different. Then matchmaking is out of the question. But we don't. We just have another game mode that results in bad matches imo.

[MischiefSC]

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:16 PM, said:

I love how it's "punishment" to have to play against other units instead of pugs.

No. The punishment is having CW split up, units forced to break up and all the other crap.

You keep saying 'units'. What you mean is 'people who communicate and coordinate'.

Because I pug, so do many other people, but we communicate and coordinate and when we do so we pretty much universally stomp people who don't. What tags they wear are irrelevant. All this does is punish people who play in casual units and reward people for refusing to learn the fundamental skills of the game.

[Kilo 40]

Lupis Volk, on 14 January 2016 - 11:20 PM, said:

this punishes everyone in a unit. From the l33t to the n00bs.

and the punishment is....having to fight other units! the horror!

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 11:25 PM, said:

units forced to break up and all the other crap.

"what? we have to fight other groups and not just pug stomp??? UNIT DISBANDED!!!!"

[Nuebot]

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:27 PM, said:

and the punishment is....having to fight other units! the horror!



"what? we have to fight other groups and not just pug stomp??? UNIT DISBANDED!!!!"

It's almost like they have to realize how insufferable it is to play against other people like themselves. "No, we just sit here and wait for them to attack" fifteen minutes later "No, we wait guys!" NO ONE MOVES!"

[Kilo 40]

Duke Nedo, on 14 January 2016 - 11:24 PM, said:

Why doesn't the good units want good opponents? If you are that elite, that's the only way for you to get even better.

because they're not good against other units. They're only good against unorganized pugs with players from across the globe speaking 8 different languages.

They don't want a challenge. they want EZ mode. This is no different tan a tier 1 player upset that he can't play against tier 5 players.

[Deathlike]

I've done a lot of solo PUGing, and occasionally I write stuff in chat... usually locations of where to go or where the enemy is at...

Sometimes this works and other times it doesn't, but even if in the remote chance that some people have a brain and use that information to succeed... it's one less gripe because we win the match.

Still... it doesn't stop people from derping and being roflstomped by auto-NASCARing everything and anything for no logical reason.

[MischiefSC]

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:27 PM, said:

and the punishment is....having to fight other units! the horror!



"what? we have to fight other groups and not just pug stomp??? UNIT DISBANDED!!!!"

You mean like penalties for income from big unit size and the like? The bigger your unit is the less you make from captured worlds?

I get that you're trying to avoid the whole point of the thread - that communication and coordination are skills, not hax. I also get that you want to pretend that it's about 'units vs pugs' when it absolute is not, nor is the problem. The problem is 'people who communicate/coordinate' > 'people who don't communicate/coordinate'.

Pugs beat units, pugs beat other pugs. It's communication and coordination. A unit tag doesn't do anything special.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

Pugs beat units, pugs beat other pugs. It's communication and coordination. A unit tag doesn't do anything special.

The solo queue ironically reinforces that.

You really know nothing of a player or unit in the solo queue.

Success or failure is dictated whether a random group of players decide to actually work as a team. If the result is a roflstomp, it's probably because the opfor did very little in the way of teamwork... not as much as there guys with tags or "OP meta builds".

[Duke Nedo]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

You mean like penalties for income from big unit size and the like? The bigger your unit is the less you make from captured worlds?

I get that you're trying to avoid the whole point of the thread - that communication and coordination are skills, not hax. I also get that you want to pretend that it's about 'units vs pugs' when it absolute is not, nor is the problem. The problem is 'people who communicate/coordinate' > 'people who don't communicate/coordinate'.

Pugs beat units, pugs beat other pugs. It's communication and coordination. A unit tag doesn't do anything special.

Though nobody is trying to punish units. It's an attempt to create more even matches, which ought to be in everyone's best interest. If the method stinks, suggest a better one?

[Kilo 40]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 11:35 PM, said:

You mean like penalties for income from big unit size and the like? The bigger your unit is the less you make from captured worlds?

I get that you're trying to avoid the whole point of the thread - that communication and coordination are skills, not hax. I also get that you want to pretend that it's about 'units vs pugs' when it absolute is not, nor is the problem. The problem is 'people who communicate/coordinate' > 'people who don't communicate/coordinate'.

Pugs beat units, pugs beat other pugs. It's communication and coordination. A unit tag doesn't do anything special.

then why did you cry about splitting the queue? why is that a punishment to you?

[Soultraxx]

So Units moan about noobs and solos in CW ruining their experience because they "dont like to farm" and want competitive matches.

And then............

they moan because they're going to face units and get competitive matches.

There's just no pleasing some people.

[MischiefSC]

Nuebot, on 14 January 2016 - 11:28 PM, said:

It's almost like they have to realize how insufferable it is to play against other people like themselves. "No, we just sit here and wait for them to attack" fifteen minutes later "No, we wait guys!" NO ONE MOVES!"

Units are happy to play units. People who communicate and coordinate prefer to play with other people who communicate and coordinate -

That is why units exist.

We're happy to play against other coordinated people who communicate. Have no issue with having a 'I am unable to socialize and prefer to be bad and have being bad catered to' only queue. Which is what you're describing.

The point though is that the other punishments for units are there because people who are bad want to stay bad and not have to play against people who are good.

Mixed units drop all the time. Take 12 people from 12 units. Make a premade and drop them. They'll do great. In fact take those same 12, put them in a pug drop. They'll coordinate and they'll win against people who don't/won't.

Having a tag does nothing. That you say 'they only play great in a unit' makes my point for me - these people have honed the skills of communication and coordination to be better than people who don't. What you're asking is the same as saying people with good aim should be required to have reticle shake so they're not better than people with bad aim.

Split the queues, no problem. However if you don't play in the deep end you should not be competing for the same rewards, taking planets. Also the other punishments for teams being... teams, like high costs for high unit membership and reduced rewards for having a big unit need removed.

The very idea of having a queue to drop in CW where every pug team I drop with is full of people who can and will communicate and coordinate makes me giddy. That's not what will happen; it's only fear and ignorance that makes people assume that having a unit tag means someone plays like a competitive tier team. Plenty of teams play like pugs.

However being coordinated and being able to communicate? If you think that's a bad thing, the problem is that you need to be playing a single player game.

[Kilo 40]

this entire thread is just one giant strawman argument.

[MischiefSC]

Duke Nedo, on 14 January 2016 - 11:40 PM, said:

Though nobody is trying to punish units. It's an attempt to create more even matches, which ought to be in everyone's best interest. If the method stinks, suggest a better one?

No. It is NOT in everyones best interests. If you want fair and even matches play in pug/group queue. There's a matchmaker there. CW is supposed to be a war between factions. If there are artificial limitations in place to keep anyone from having an advantage then why not just put leaderboards in for pug/group queue and run it that way with PSR?

If MS goes Wolf loyalist I say marvelous. AWESOME. Put the right rewards in place for everyone else to gang up and oppose them. That's what CW is supposed to be. If you artificially try to force players to break up their units (which are friends. Just groups of friends by and large) and split up, what is the point? You've just gutted everything that makes CW different from a regular pug queue with PSR tiers.

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

then why did you cry about splitting the queue? why is that a punishment to you?

The issue is only if the queues are split but the sides are competing for the same objective. If I can take worlds from House Kurita without ever having to play against the most competent, capable and coordinated players in House Kurita I didn't really beat them - I got an artificial matchmaker to protect me from playing matches I couldn't win. That wasn't a war, that was just me doing pug/group queue drops with the equivalent of PSR tiers protecting me from T1 players.

If however the 'solo' queue doesn't get to take worlds but simply influence matches where worlds are taken (provide sensor pings, long tom support, etc) that's great. Perfect even. The main problem then is you leave those people isolated, especially the new players, from the experienced players who could actually help them improve.

[MischiefSC]

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

this entire thread is just one giant strawman argument.

No. The strawman is saying 'units beat up pugs'. That's an absolute strawman that's been proven false. There are a handful of units who are good enough to really do that. Most units don't even field 12 players regularly enough to fill their own drops. Of those many units pretty much play like pugs. Conversely most unit members also pug drop - they however still drive wins even in pug drops.

That's not because they have magic Unit Membership Super Powers. It's because they coordinate and communicate.

Again, I'll point you to CJF. Only Clan faction kicking *** right now. Why? Their average pugs communicate and coordinate because their loyalist units are small but dedicated and regularly drop with pugs and provide direction.

Communication and coordination.

The strawman argument is 'units vs pugs'. Pretty much everyone in every unit pugs, regularly. There is no 'units vs pugs'. It's 'people who communicate and coordinate' vs 'people who don't communicate/coordinate'.

Again, split the new players out. Let people who just want to pug, never want to communicate or coordinate play in their own queue. It's like CW Tier 5 Exclusive environment. So long as they're not competing with everyone else that's awesome and ideal.

Pretending though that by not sucking at the game and being able to communicate and coordinate with other people everyone else is just bullies and meanies is the strawman.