119 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

MrMadguy, on 21 January 2016 - 04:10 AM, said:

Following criteria are used to rank maps:
1) Variation of tactics
2) How balanced spawns/sides of map are
3) Imbalance towards some weight classes
4) Imbalance towards some builds
5) Imbalance towards some Meta
6) Time is wasted on that map in non-playing activities

I keep seeing nice things said about Canyon Network and i think it's time to shoot them down. so this is not directed at op in particular but to every defender of Canyon and Frozen.

Canyon(for this example) has no variation of tactics, none. You gravitate around the middle, take it and win. If the enemy don't meet you there they made a mistake somewhere and are down guys already. You can only afford to have people on the side and behind sniping if they know to regroup early and are fast about it.

It's a map that greatly advantage mech with JJ which is another reason the map always end up played the same. Half the mech cant play it differently and are bound to ramp.

The cover provided by the canyon are great to isolate you from your team so you have to be careful to stay with the pack and do your share of shooting or you just diminish your team. You can't use the canyon to create flank unit, you only move in them toward either of both ends and always toward a ramp, the ramp.

No matter where you are on the map it's the same, it looks the same and it plays the same.

Frozen, HPG and Mining are the same in the sense that they play the same no matter where you are in the map. Im not going to pick them apart like Canyon, it's plain to see enough. In my book that does not make them good map but their simplicity make them popular. A good warning light is when Skirmish/Conq/Assault plays absolutely the same. thats the sign of a meh map. Then if the map has the previously mentioned flaws you get a bad map. Bog for example, as small and basic as it may seem, will play entirely differently depending of the game mode and you got more than one choice.

All in all, Canyon and the other 3 first map are basic and boring map, you will see a lot more variation of play style on River City that can have you fighting in 4-5 entirely different places that look and plays completely differently.

UNTIL WE CAN CHOOSE WHERE LANCES DROP WE WILL HARDLY EVER GET DIFFERENT AND FUN MATCH ON THOSE MAPS.

[patataman]

Columb0, on 21 January 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

i can agree on polar highlands. that map is no fun at all and in my opinion favours assaults and LRMs far too much. i can't stand that map, so much space to walk and so little to cover.

Assaults? Lights and mediums are the big winners imho, they can finally use their speed for scouting, flanking etc without reaching the "out of bounds" area like in other maps.

One thing that i'm loving about Polar is how it affected the team composition. Last weekend during the event i had plenty of drops with 5-6 assaults, many heavies, and one or two mediums/lights in the team. Now, it's more like 1 mixed lance of assaults and heavies, 1 lance of mediums and 1 of lights.

[Dimento Graven]

DAYLEET, on 21 January 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

...

Canyon(for this example) has no variation of tactics, none. You gravitate around the middle, take it and win. If the enemy don't meet you there they made a mistake somewhere and are down guys already. You can only afford to have people on the side and behind sniping if they know to regroup early and are fast about it.

Incorrect. While MOST pugs tend to gravitate around middle, it's definitely NOT the only tactic, and taking the middle doesn't guarantee victory.

Many strategies include having one team charge the far end of the map, and come around at the bottom and attack the enemy from behind. The enemy might be waiting at theta, or one of the ramps next to it, BUT, they're usually caught off guard and soon die.

Quote

It's a map that greatly advantage mech with JJ which is another reason the map always end up played the same. Half the mech cant play it differently and are bound to ramp.

While JJ's are an advantage in this map, that's not unique to this map. Knowledge of where the various access ramps are, obvious and some not obvious at all, can make a HUGE difference as to the enoyability of this map.

In this case, knowledge is power.

Quote

The cover provided by the canyon are great to isolate you from your team so you have to be careful to stay with the pack and do your share of shooting or you just diminish your team. You can't use the canyon to create flank unit, you only move in them toward either of both ends and always toward a ramp, the ramp.

Staying with the team is an issue on every map. The team has to account for slower assaults, and other mechs with speed should be being careful to maintain their proximity to the team.

YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY flank in CN, it's just moderately more difficult.

Quote

No matter where you are on the map it's the same, it looks the same and it plays the same.

<shrug> Yeah one canyon wall looks a lot like the other, except where you're not looking at canyon wall... The tracks, bridges, com tower, junk yard, et al, are different and can be used in different ways. As far as 'playing the same', as far as I'm concerned the game play is "...aim and shoot at enemy big stompy robot...", yeah it's monochrome in outlook, but that's MY personal viewpoint.

Quote

Frozen, HPG and Mining are the same in the sense that they play the same no matter where you are in the map. Im not going to pick them apart like Canyon, it's plain to see enough. In my book that does not make them good map but their simplicity make them popular. A good warning light is when Skirmish/Conq/Assault plays absolutely the same. thats the sign of a meh map. Then if the map has the previously mentioned flaws you get a bad map. Bog for example, as small and basic as it may seem, will play entirely differently depending of the game mode and you got more than one choice.

ALL THESE MAPS, can be played differently, it's just that so few pugs choose to vary outside the 'norm' in tactics, at least until some new meta arrives to shake things up.

Quote

All in all, Canyon and the other 3 first map are basic and boring map, you will see a lot more variation of play style on River City that can have you fighting in 4-5 entirely different places that look and plays completely differently.

UNTIL WE CAN CHOOSE WHERE LANCES DROP WE WILL HARDLY EVER GET DIFFERENT AND FUN MATCH ON THOSE MAPS.

Again, it's up to us the players to try different things.

Most of the time... We don't.

[DAYLEET]

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Incorrect. While MOST pugs tend to gravitate around middle, it's definitely NOT the only tactic, and taking the middle doesn't guarantee victory.

Many strategies include having one team charge the far end of the map, and come around at the bottom and attack the enemy from behind. The enemy might be waiting at theta, or one of the ramps next to it, BUT, they're usually caught off guard and soon die.

I don't know how you can split your group for 7 minutes to execute a manoeuvre and not get destroyed, coordinated group or not. Or do you mean Lights backstabbing? If you didnt split and the whole group flank then i have to ask, wth did the enemy do? take middle and wait?

I have seen the worse tactic works(not saying yours is) and often just because the team has no communication and no seismic. HPG is the worse for that and it makes me crazy to see a whole team go under(especial in conquest) and not get camped from above for easy picking by the other team. In one particular case we were all up, i told my team what to do and no one did or said anything, first thing i know the other side has people dying, no one said a damn word or obviously knew they came out because they would have shot them to death before they ever get to the ramp. I know they split because of seism and coming on my side so i call it, no one came... we lose they win, dont mean they were right to all go under

Dimento Graven, on 21 January 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

ALL THESE MAPS, can be played differently, it's just that so few pugs choose to vary outside the 'norm' in tactics, at least until some new meta arrives to shake things up.

You cant play Canyon, Frozen, HPG and Mining differently because the map is the same everywhere. Going left rather than right isnt a different choice, Attacking center dead on rather than from the side isnt a different choice. Thats what i meant, map like River city can have different gameplay. The Fight on Bog wont be the same depending on the game mode.

Edited by DAYLEET, 21 January 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

DAYLEET, on 21 January 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

I don't know how you can split your group for 7 minutes to execute a manoeuvre and not get destroyed, coordinated group or not. Or do you mean Lights backstabbing? If you didnt split and the whole group flank then i have to ask, wth did the enemy do? take middle and wait?

I have seen the worse tactic works(not saying yours is) and often just because the team has no communication and no seismic. HPG is the worse for that and it makes me crazy to see a whole team go under(especial in conquest) and not get camped from above for easy picking by the other team. In one particular case we were all up, i told my team what to do and no one did or said anything, first thing i know the other side has people dying, no one said a damn word or obviously knew they came out because they would have shot them to death before they ever get to the ramp. I know they split because of seism and coming on my side so i call it, no one came... we lose they win, dont mean they were right to all go under

Well first off, if it's taking 7 minutes to come around the in CN, someone is doing it wrong, or maybe they're doing it in a stock Urbie?

At most two minutes are all that's necessary, and if your pugs can't avoid melting for 2 minutes, well... Probably no tactic would save you, MM just dealt you a low blow...

Quote

You cant play Canyon, Frozen, HPG and Mining differently because the map is the same everywhere. Going left rather than right isnt a different choice, Attacking center dead on rather than from the side isnt a different choice. Thats what i meant, map like River city can have different gameplay. The Fight on Bog wont be the same depending on the game mode.

And if neither side choses to go center? I've had that happen, where the initial battle and the majority of the match happens away from the Center.

It's the choices the players make that determine the outcome of the match.

Only in very few specific cases (like Frozen City, Skirmish, Charlie Lance) will the map be the most significant factor of match outcome, but again, depending on the choices made by you and the 11 other people on your team, the progression of battle can be extremely varied.

Again, MOST players, choose not to do anything outside the norm.

That's not the map's fault, that's just uncreative play.

[cSand]

"Here's this rating list, which I made, so that new players know that their map preference should align with mine and nobody else's."


you missed one map in there:

"THE FORUMS"

Edited by cSand, 21 January 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[SteelBruiser]

Snowhawk, on 21 January 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

Canyon Network = excellent...??? Lol... ask an Atlas, King Crab or Dire-Wolf-Pilot whether they really like this map....

I push a KGC around and I find the canyon map challenging. After some time and running through several times, I learned to roll my own path instead of hanging out with everyone else at the same point of suicide, I actually started having success on the canyon map. I know this is a team based event, but sometimes to get anywhere you have to break the pattern. The last match was pretty good as the more experienced folks actually worked together to work around behind the other team. In the end I believe the maps are only as good as the players...take that however you wish.

Snowhawk, on 21 January 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

Canyon Network = excellent...??? Lol... ask an Atlas, King Crab or Dire-Wolf-Pilot whether they really like this map....

I push a KGC around and I find the canyon map challenging. After some time and running through several times, I learned to roll my own path instead of hanging out with everyone else at the same point of suicide, I actually started having success on the canyon map. I know this is a team based event, but sometimes to get anywhere you have to break the pattern. The last match was pretty good as the more experienced folks actually worked together to work around behind the other team. In the end I believe the maps are only as good as the players...take that however you wish.

Snowhawk, on 21 January 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

Canyon Network = excellent...??? Lol... ask an Atlas, King Crab or Dire-Wolf-Pilot whether they really like this map....

I push a KGC around and I find the canyon map challenging. After some time and running through several times, I learned to roll my own path instead of hanging out with everyone else at the same point of suicide, I actually started having success on the canyon map. I know this is a team based event, but sometimes to get anywhere you have to break the pattern. The last match was pretty good as the more experienced folks actually worked together to work around behind the other team. In the end I believe the maps are only as good as the players...take that however you wish.

Snowhawk, on 21 January 2016 - 10:58 AM, said:

Canyon Network = excellent...??? Lol... ask an Atlas, King Crab or Dire-Wolf-Pilot whether they really like this map....

I push a KGC around and I find the canyon map challenging. After some time and running through several times, I learned to roll my own path instead of hanging out with everyone else at the same point of suicide, I actually started having success on the canyon map. I know this is a team based event, but sometimes to get anywhere you have to break the pattern. The last match was pretty good as the more experienced folks actually worked together to work around behind the other team. In the end I believe the maps are only as good as the players...take that however you wish.

[Khobai]

Tolerable:
Canyon Network
Tourmaline Desert
HPG Manifold

Barely Tolerable:
Mining Collective
Crimson Straight
River City

WTF AM I PLAYING THIS:
Frozen Sh*tty
Forest Agony
Alpine Bigass Peaks Mountain
Caustic Racetrack

Rage Quit:
Polrm Crylands
Viridian Boring
Terribad Therma

Edited by Khobai, 21 January 2016 - 05:59 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Khobai, on 21 January 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Tolerable:
Canyon Network
Tourmaline Desert
HPG Solaris

Barely Tolerable:
Pit Fight Collective
Crimson Boredom
River City

WTF AM I PLAYING THIS:
Frozen Postage Stamp
Forest Agony
Sniper Peak and Vicinity
Caustic Racetrack

Rage Quit:
Polar AWESOMENESS
Viridian Blob
Terra Derpa

FTFY...

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 January 2016 - 10:47 PM.

[1Grimbane]

lol caustic racetrack,,,, i'm only running my mechs with applejack camo now and by golly i will go fast and turn left real dang good

[MrMadguy]

First. Lol. Yesterday another team tried to prove, that Alpine has various tactics and attacked through G7. I died only because I didn't expect, that 2/3 of team could do that stupid move - I expected 1-2 noobish 'Mechs. But then enemy team was stomped in a matter of minute with 0 dies from our side. Never do it - it's suicide!

Second. I have around 70 'Mechs. And I want all of them to be different. I don't want to have exactly the same "best" Meta equipment on any of them. If I have chosen, that this 'Mech would be medium range brawler - it will be medium range brawler. I will not change it into LRM boat, just because PGI favors LRM Meta now. And as Meta maps gimp me in this case - they are unfair, unbalanced and I refuse to play at them.

Third. Game is ruined for me now. I don't want to kill my brain cells, sorry. I have to take a brake, till following problems won't be fixed: 1) Problems with MM 2) Problems with Meta maps

[1Grimbane]

wait lol are we back to lrm is meta again... i thought they were useless lol (i use em just fine) mwo has some vicious cycles

[Kjudoon]

1Grimbane, on 22 January 2016 - 01:26 AM, said:

wait lol are we back to lrm is meta again... i thought they were useless lol (i use em just fine) mwo has some vicious cycles

Some are trying to claim that. Unfortunately, they haven't changed, so on the rest of the maps, nothing has changed with them. it's just the LRMhatorz don't have their easy cover on this map so it seems like they're too powerful and they can't do their usual Derpball charge.

[Paigan]

Yesterday in Polar Highlands, there was this Steiner guy named "MrMadGuy" and (after flaming us for forcing him to play a map he doesn't like) he announced to quit playing MWO and that he only had to finish some business that required him to earn 200K CBs.

Funniest thing about that match was: it way completely different, dynamic, tactically interesting.
For example a single atlas flanked the enemy in a suitable moment (unnoticed thanks to my SHC's ECM :-D). We killed a couple of mechs together and drove the rest in our team member's arms.

All those trenches allow for magnificent tactical maneauvers.
It was a little sad to see this guy do nothing but complain about a "$hitty map" without any arguments in what was probably one of the most interesting matches ever.

Edited by Paigan, 22 January 2016 - 01:32 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

MrMadguy, on 22 January 2016 - 12:29 AM, said:

Third. Game is ruined for me now. I don't want to kill my brain cells, sorry. I have to take a brake, till following problems won't be fixed: 1) Problems with MM 2) Problems with Meta maps

LFMAO.

Holy Crap guys... he's rage quit the game..

Bye bro.

[El Bandito]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 22 January 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

LFMAO.

Holy Crap guys... he's rage quit the game..

Bye bro.

Yep. Him quitting would be a plus to MWO. Sadly, he always comes back shortly after his rant filled departure.

[Mawai]

XX Sulla XX, on 21 January 2016 - 10:39 AM, said:

I think to many of you confuse personal preference with what is good and bad

Until someone delivers the statistics ... personal preference is all there is ... good and bad are just individual opinions from playing the maps over and over. Just because an individual has a negative impression of a map and maybe some decent logical arguments about why it is bad ... still doesn't make it bad for everyone.

Some folks are saying Polar Highlands is bad due to lack of cover and regions with long sight lines. Others say it has a good amount of cover in the rolling hills and the sightlines are good. One says bad map, the other says good map ... and it all has to do with the player's preferred play style, preferred mech and how well it works on that map and nothing to do with whether a map is objectively "good" or "bad" ... if it is even possible to define those.

Here is one possible objective definition of good and bad:

A "bad" map is one in which a given side has a statistically significant winning advantage with specific drop points and game mode. If all drop point combinations for both teams and all game modes give both sides an equal chance of winning then it is a
"good" map.

You could refine this further by adding ... if a map has an even chance of win or loss for both sides BUT has a disproportionate number of lopsided results 12:[0,1,2] then it MAY also be a "bad" map. This could be a map design issue that leads teams into making the one mistake that steamrolls the match OR a terrain issue that funnels one team in such a way that they more frequently hit the opponents spontaneously grouped.

Anyway, my point is that any statement without statistics to back it up or an objective definition of good and bad is always just someone's opinion.

[Mechteric]

Purely subjective view from the OP, since the outcome of the match doesn't indicate whether it was a good game or good map or not. I'd put Polar in the neutral, and move HPG down to bad, for example.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 22 January 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[MrMadguy]

Lol, it finally happened:

[Meathook]

Good Lord, back already?