284 replies to this topic

[H I A S]

Vaegir Raiden, on 23 January 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

Blah, blah blah, more blah?

Just that THESE PLAYERS have GOOD REFLEXES and AIM doesnt make them have UNDERSTANDING of the game or hell even TT/BT universe. BET most of them don't know anything about it.

YOU say they DO KNOW about the game. WHICH i agree on SOME POINTS. BUILDING, having idea's of cover, tactics and more but that's something you see in EVERY OTHER GAME.

About mechanics or hell even gameplay? N.O.P.E.

Some COMPs units are TOTAL TOOLS. I saw enough Quickdraws with unit names above them pressing JJ bar alot and boating/build ON/NEAR QUIRKS.
I rest my CASE



You dont make sense. Because winning majority of the time equals SKILLS? Eh...OK.

What define skill in an PvP Game in your opinion? Roll Dices or read Books?

Edited by arivio, 23 January 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[Prof RJ Gumby]

Stat1cVoiD, on 23 January 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

Gman stated everything clearly from a/his competetive point of view and - regarding this standpoint - everything he said is true. And 95 % of all posts in this thread don't even try to contradict his arguments, but just blindly flame him for playing competetively and judging a map around those factors.
The map does indeed favor high hardpoints immensely and punishes low mounts harshly. Even if you find a corner to peek within the hills, the shot might still land in the next hill. And yeah, you can go to some of the few buildings to compensate for this problem, but that still means that a chassis with high hardpoints is way more flexible in picking its position than one with lower ones. Other maps are way more flat and punish suboptimal convergence considerably less.
Brawl loadouts can work if your opponent also runs mostly mid or shortrange builds and there can happen some really nice fights up and down the hills. If however one teams consists mostly of ERLL boats and decides to kite and snipe you, there is just not enough cover to close the 900m gap without opening up to their LoS over and over again and getting widdled down without any chance to fight back.
LRM Cheese is real. Period. Cover is just not good enough and I am again not talking about 1 or 2 LRMtards who wait blindly behind a hill for a light to kill em, but about 5 to 6 boats which kite you to your doom.
If played halfway decent, QKDs or BLRs go just completely ham on this map.
And this has little to do with "thinking" or "tactics", but with the fact that this map offers extremely open 360° firing lanes on a lot of spots for mechs with high range and hardpoints. You don't have to be a brilliant mind or a master tactician to realize you just have to move 400m to the left to look into a certain trench. As long as your range is high enough its extremely easy to lock your enemy down in a lot of spots, because of how linear a lot of thetrenches are laid out.
So imho most of Gmans criticism is justified. If you however say you like the map because you like sniping, SkillRMs, Snow or running for several minutes without seeing a single enemy, thats your personal preference and fine... But it doesn't change the fact that the map is imbalanced from a competetive standpoint: JJs are mostly useless, ERLL and LRM reign supreme if played halfway decent and Brawl or Midrange Builds can become pretty obsolete. If you like playing on huge maps or not however is just personal preference.

Ever heard the "arena style shooter" argument? Some people waited years for a map like Polar, some gave up hope for sth like that long time ago. Some left the game, but let's not talk about those last ones as they're not here.
Anyway, after all this time, a miracle happened. PGI managed to make a map that actually is like those people wanted all along. A map they've gave up hope for. These guys are wetting their pants from happiness.

aaaannnd

Some other people don't like it because reasons. These are ignored, nothing can please anyone

buuuuut

A well-known competitive(s) brings up the idea of "fixing" that map by making it more like ALL THOSE OTHER MAPS WE HAD FOR YEARS . Competitives, as I heard, have PGIs ear sometimes. So certain people throw a fit - they've just got their dream come true map and some people PGI just might listen to want to destroy it.

Don't be suprised, this game was founded and survived mainly on people's sentiment. So strange many people playing it are emotional about loosing their magic little dream-come-true map? Just because some of the top-level-super-duper-meta-competitive per mill of the players find it bad?
--------
EDIT: Comps have map voting too, and map select in private matches. We should just settle on a compromise that people acknowledge not all maps can be liked by everyone. Besides, maybe simply agree with PGI or whoever that only certain "super competitively balanced" maps should be used in tournaments and such, while leaving those chaotic pug and <12 group drops with all the maps there are. And let them decide with voting.

Edited by Prof RJ Gumby, 23 January 2016 - 09:32 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Stat1cVoiD, on 23 January 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

blahblahblah

except many of us have refuted the need for any of that crap. I've been running a bloody slow, ppc in the arms warhammer. No sniping, noto LRMs.

There's this thing called rolling terrain and trenches that ruin LoS. Sniping and LRms only dominate if you are slow, bad or let them.

DV McKenna, on 23 January 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

Just because you may have played TT doesn't mean you know anything about MWO....

and just because someone has reflexes and play for a disciplined team doesn't really mean they do, either.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

and just because someone has reflexes and play for a disciplined team doesn't really mean they do, either.

I'm sure you'll have not missed the fact I never said they did.

[ZenFool]

Stat1cVoiD, on 23 January 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

Gman stated everything clearly from a/his competetive point of view and - regarding this standpoint - everything he said is true. And 95 % of all posts in this thread don't even try to contradict his arguments, but just blindly flame him for playing competetively and judging a map around those factors.
The map does indeed favor high hardpoints immensely and punishes low mounts harshly. Even if you find a corner to peek within the hills, the shot might still land in the next hill. And yeah, you can go to some of the few buildings to compensate for this problem, but that still means that a chassis with high hardpoints is way more flexible in picking its position than one with lower ones. Other maps are way more flat and punish suboptimal convergence considerably less.
Brawl loadouts can work if your opponent also runs mostly mid or shortrange builds and there can happen some really nice fights up and down the hills. If however one teams consists mostly of ERLL boats and decides to kite and snipe you, there is just not enough cover to close the 900m gap without opening up to their LoS over and over again and getting widdled down without any chance to fight back.
LRM Cheese is real. Period. Cover is just not good enough and I am again not talking about 1 or 2 LRMtards who wait blindly behind a hill for a light to kill em, but about 5 to 6 boats which kite you to your doom.
If played halfway decent, QKDs or BLRs go just completely ham on this map.
And this has little to do with &quot;thinking&quot; or &quot;tactics&quot;, but with the fact that this map offers extremely open 360° firing lanes on a lot of spots for mechs with high range and hardpoints. You don't have to be a brilliant mind or a master tactician to realize you just have to move 400m to the left to look into a certain trench. As long as your range is high enough its extremely easy to lock your enemy down in a lot of spots, because of how linear a lot of thetrenches are laid out.
So imho most of Gmans criticism is justified. If you however say you like the map because you like sniping, SkillRMs, Snow or running for several minutes without seeing a single enemy, thats your personal preference and fine... But it doesn't change the fact that the map is imbalanced from a competetive standpoint: JJs are mostly useless, ERLL and LRM reign supreme if played halfway decent and Brawl or Midrange Builds can become pretty obsolete. If you like playing on huge maps or not however is just personal preference.

Most of us were NOT flaming him and you would have known that if you had read the posts, but whatever...

To your(and his) points... High mount weapons are a problem on EVERY MAP. They are a MECH issue, not a MAP issue.

ErL spam is a WEAPON issue with quirks, not a MAP issue.

Is it true you must spend a minute or two finding the enemy, YES! He thinks that's bad, but I LOVE the fact that a map can have scouting on it now.

Lrm spam? How can all the comps scream on one hand how lousy they are and on the other talk about how no skill instawin they are? You can't have both. You. Can't. Have. Both.

None of his points were valid because they were taken from a very narrow perspective that ignores the fact that this map is DIFFERENT!!!!!!!! Sadly if he'd been any other player or group outside of NGNG I would have argued on the forums a bit for fun but ultimately left them to their opinion. Unfortunately, Gman has enough cred(rightfully so) that his opinion matters. That's why I am shooting holes in it and until one of you actually reads this small novel and comes up with something other than "Bads are flaming" then I'll KEEP shooting holes in it.

[1453 R]

I suppose that's really the thing.

Gman and the Ultracomp League (of EVIL!!...no) don't generally have to deal with random or semi-random maps. Ultracomp fights, to the best of my knowledge, are private-match affairs on a fixed, predetermined map rotation. Yeah, in a situation where you are 100% certain you're going to drop on Polar Highlands with a group of twelve organized players, I imagine you can bring every ERLL in the hangar, load up on Hellbringers and Quickdraws and stuff, and have a real edge over a brawling set, or a random disorganized Puglandia drop crowd. For them, the map is likely not a great addition, though I find it pertinent that Gman himself noted that he's still glad to see the map because it represents PGI stepping outside their comfort zone with map design.

For me, though? Regular Puglandia drops have none of that certainty that ultracomps rely on. You could load up your cERLL Snipebringer, sure, aim for Polar Highlands and salivate in anticipation of all those sweet sniper kills...and wind on on Terra Therma with a pack of SRM brawlers and DakkaKrabs. Or Bog with cMPL Beamvomit and GaussDogs. Or River City with artillery-happy lights. Or...

The regular Puglandia queue is a chaotic mosh pit where anything goes at all times. In that scenario, I believe Polar Highlands shines as a map where movement and awareness are more important than twitch reflexes and positioning. 'Positioning' is very impermanent on Polar Highlands - anywhere you position yourself, you're liable to get SRMs in your chocolate factory if you don't pay attention. In Puglandia, anyone can be flanked at any time, which is not really true on most other maps. There aren't many, if any, universally strong positions that can repel attacks from any side. Yeah, high-mount snipers have a serious edge on this map, but In Puglandia, one or two of them is not an insurmountable edge.

As Bishop said: the game ultracomps play and the game the rest of us play are pretty much completely different games. Until/unless ultracomps start playing leagues with the same semi-randomized map/mode selection the rest of us use, their concerns with things like map/weapon balancing, game mode issues, or other similar hot-button topics are not going to line up with ours. An ultracomp twelve-man sniper deck built for supercold Polar Highlands Assault would get destroyed on Mordor Conquest, or River City anything, or a big number of other combinations that Puglandia players pretty much always have to be ready to deal with.

Given the ability to plan on precisely what they'll be doing and where they'll be doing it, ultracomps are insanely efficient. Even a single ultracomp running The Right Mech For The Right Job can be a not-insignificant force multiplier if he's slumming around in Puglandia for whatever reason...but I would argue that Puglandia players are generally going to be better at dealing with Random Crap the Gamemode. We're used to it, it's what we do, we don't (usually) have to deal with a red twelve-man team of exactly-what's-best-on-this-map every time we drop, and for us, Polar Highlands offers opportunities no other map does.

So no. Don't shrink PH, don't clutter it with a bunch of weird senseless hard cover that kills the ability to maneuver on the map. Just...cut it from ultracomp league rotations, instead, eh?

[Oderint dum Metuant]

1453 R, on 23 January 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

I suppose that's really the thing.

Gman and the Ultracomp League (of EVIL!!...no) don't generally have to deal with random or semi-random maps. Ultracomp fights, to the best of my knowledge, are private-match affairs on a fixed, predetermined map rotation. Yeah, in a situation where you are 100% certain you're going to drop on Polar Highlands with a group of twelve organized players, I imagine you can bring every ERLL in the hangar, load up on Hellbringers and Quickdraws and stuff, and have a real edge over a brawling set, or a random disorganized Puglandia drop crowd. For them, the map is likely not a great addition, though I find it pertinent that Gman himself noted that he's still glad to see the map because it represents PGI stepping outside their comfort zone with map design.

You'd think so huh.

Except that's not the only way to play the map. Imagine how surprised units are when you bring a mid to short range deck to polar.
ERLL mechs are toasty and don't like being pushed.

[Bishop Steiner]

DV McKenna, on 23 January 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

You'd think so huh.

Except that's not the only way to play the map. Imagine how surprised units are when you bring a mid to short range deck to polar.
ERLL mechs are toasty and don't like being pushed.

which is why I don't get most of the complaints...sniping really does NOT dominate this map.... if you are willing to maneuver, use terrain and push. It dominates, along with LRMs, amongst stationary play, which so many of the non comps have lulled themselves into doing on most maps..... but this map really has no one play style that dominates all others, because as flat as it appears on first glance, reality is, that it ain't remotely.

And maybe that's the real issue, is that no one specialized style really does hold the keys to this map. And say what you will, defend what you will, get prickly if you will, the general comp mentality loves their very specialized, very controlled environments. And in my play on this,contrary to what Ulti insists, you can counter pretty much any playstyle on this map, as long as your team doesn't suck (which of course is the great MM gamble of PUGLandia)

[Metus regem]

DV McKenna, on 23 January 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

You'd think so huh.

Except that's not the only way to play the map. Imagine how surprised units are when you bring a mid to short range deck to polar.
ERLL mechs are toasty and don't like being pushed.

That's how I deal with snipers, missile boats, and Clan mechs... Push 'em till they shut down, then murder them.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

which is why I don't get most of the complaints...sniping really does NOT dominate this map.... if you are willing to maneuver, use terrain and push. It dominates, along with LRMs, amongst stationary play, which so many of the non comps have lulled themselves into doing on most maps..... but this map really has no one play style that dominates all others, because as flat as it appears on first glance, reality is, that it ain't remotely.

And maybe that's the real issue, is that no one specialized style really does hold the keys to this map. And say what you will, defend what you will, get prickly if you will, the general comp mentality loves their very specialized, very controlled environments. And in my play on this,contrary to what Ulti insists, you can counter pretty much any playstyle on this map, as long as your team doesn't suck (which of course is the great MM gamble of PUGLandia)

I refer to your point as one trick pony comp units like those specialized environments.
To be the best, you have to win it all consistently and usually that means having more than one strategy and playstyle

[Kodyn]

The fact that an opinion of Gmans warrants a whole thread is pretty sad...

I thought by now everyone had gotten over him and realized he's an opinionated tool who's completely off-base as much as he's correct about anything?

[MischiefSC]

Okay. One big problem we have is this salty, embittered and ignorant attitude about competitive play. If someone puts more work into getting good than you do it's not because they want to bully you. This self-righteous attitude of "anyone who puts in the time and effort to get better than me or play more competitively than I do is a jerk, but I only do it for fun" is obnoxious.

Everyone plays to win. We all put effort in to winning. Everyone is competitive. The attitude that the only virtuous amount of competition is their amount and anyone less competitive is a casual scrub and anyone more competitive is a tryhard bully.

That's stupid and it's total bull ****. If someone puts the effort into getting really good and mwo and is going to play competitively for money then good on them.

All competitive players are not geniuses in the game - just people who put more effort into it. However you can't argue with success - what works is what works. You can say it's more effort than you want to put on or you don't have fun doing that, but winning is winning.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 23 January 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Okay. One big problem we have is this salty, embittered and ignorant attitude about competitive play. If someone puts more work into getting good than you do it's not because they want to bully you. This self-righteous attitude of "anyone who puts in the time and effort to get better than me or play more competitively than I do is a jerk, but I only do it for fun" is obnoxious.

Everyone plays to win. We all put effort in to winning. Everyone is competitive. The attitude that the only virtuous amount of competition is their amount and anyone less competitive is a casual scrub and anyone more competitive is a tryhard bully.

That's stupid and it's total bull ****. If someone puts the effort into getting really good and mwo and is going to play competitively for money then good on them.

All competitive players are not geniuses in the game - just people who put more effort into it. However you can't argue with success - what works is what works. You can say it's more effort than you want to put on or you don't have fun doing that, but winning is winning.

Agreed..though in a few cases, not true (many of the original LORDs actually lived to bully lesser players, which is why they were so hated, not because of their skill, and you do get quite some number of Comp Tools, remember Crunk Prime?) about motivations and attitudes.

And I would actually not be shocked if it was a higher percent in Comp play because highly competitive people on the whole tend to be less tolerant, especially toward those who are not as driven.

That said, it's not like there is a shortage of Bad Dbags, either.

[1Grimbane]

well.. who wants to run out of d-bags. gotta catch em all

[Bishop Steiner]

1Grimbane, on 23 January 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

well.. who wants to run out of d-bags. gotta catch em all

well, thanks to the wonders of internet anonymity, I hear they are only Hydrogen and Stupidity outnumber Dbags in the universe now. And the latter two seem to be closely related.

[1Grimbane]

lets put a team on it to find out the correlation there, sources close to me (my TV) have indicated mtv and the news might be contributing factors

Edited by 1Grimbane, 23 January 2016 - 11:37 AM.

[MischiefSC]

All reasonable. Good leaders help coach and develop other leaders. A good team player celebrates successes in both teammates and others. A bit much to ask in a gaming environment.

Doesn't change the fact that someone being good at something doesn't me better or worse than I was before. If they're better than me than I have an opportunity to pick up some stuff to improve. It's not like we're competing for food.

[Metus regem]

MischiefSC, on 23 January 2016 - 11:37 AM, said:

All reasonable. Good leaders help coach and develop other leaders. A good team player celebrates successes in both teammates and others. A bit much to ask in a gaming environment.

Doesn't change the fact that someone being good at something doesn't me better or worse than I was before. If they're better than me than I have an opportunity to pick up some stuff to improve. It's not like we're competing for food.

Totally agree with you on this, if it were life or death, I'd be cracking you on tge back of the skull, and roasting you for meat.

[1Grimbane]

didn't you get the memo.. this is the hunger games now .

[AnimeFreak40K]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 22 January 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

As an avid light/medium jock, I love this map. Sure, the conquest points aren't in the best location, but the fact that you can't see the enemy from the start or 15 seconds in means my going and scouting to locate the enemy is worthwhile for once. That's the best part about this map. The rest is just gravy.

As an avid Heavy/Assault jock, I appreciate this map because the lessons I learn on it regarding moving, positioning, maneuvering and working with my team can be carried over into other maps.