79 replies to this topic

[Atlasian]

With such flat and wide terrain, perhaps this is a good opportunity to have assault/conquest bases randomized at different grids.

[Hawk_eye]

Spr1ggan, on 23 January 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

In a scrim maybe. In pugs anything outside of long range is pointless. As for every weapon, yes i can see med lasers, smalls/spls, srms, flamers, and mgs being very useful here.

What?
Look, I´m by no means a good player, actually, I´m pretty bad, but I flanked in a bloody Grasshopper (65kph) with MLs and did rather good!
If _I_ can get in the enemy´s rear with a rather slow heavy to rip their backside open, _everyone_ can (except perhaps for a _really_ slow Dire or something)

P.s.: Flammers? ******* _Flammers_?
Ok, enlighten me, on what map are those useful?

Dont LRM me please, on 23 January 2016 - 10:17 PM, said:

1. Idiot PUGs never bring AMS with them so it's almost worthless, ECM is for clan mechs and special mech variants.
2. AC20's can't fly over and under hills and deal 12 damage at 750m
3. No cover eixists in the map
4. Yeah try telling that to the PUGs
5. No.

Huh?

1. I _only_ play PUG
Every mech of mine who _can_ mount an AMS, does so.
Also, if this were true (not sure, might actually be that many PUG players don´t use AMS) it wouldn´t be a fault of the map but a fault of all those _other_ maps (and _you_ guys who always told everyone that LRMs are crap) that taught them that LRMs are useless and no-one uses them anyway.

2. So? AC/20s aren´t hindered by ECM or take several seconds to reach the target, which thus has time to break LOS/Lock before being hit.
Obviously Lasers, PPCs and autocannons are _totally_ OP, take them out of the game NAO!

3. What? No cover? As I said above, I moved around the entire enemy team (unseen I presume) and hit their rear in a slow heavy. There is tons and tons of cover. The kind of cover that prevents the enemy from seeing you - use it!

4. Yes, TELL IT TO THEM! Take the lead and bloody lead!

5. Well, that´s your choice.

[Spr1ggan]

Antecursor Venatus, on 24 January 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

What?
Look, I´m by no means a good player, actually, I´m pretty bad, but I flanked in a bloody Grasshopper (65kph) with MLs and did rather good!
If _I_ can get in the enemy´s rear with a rather slow heavy to rip their backside open, _everyone_ can (except perhaps for a _really_ slow Dire or something)

P.s.: Flammers? ******* _Flammers_?
Ok, enlighten me, on what map are those useful?




Huh?

1. I _only_ play PUG
Every mech of mine who _can_ mount an AMS, does so.
Also, if this were true (not sure, might actually be that many PUG players don´t use AMS) it wouldn´t be a fault of the map but a fault of all those _other_ maps (and _you_ guys who always told everyone that LRMs are crap) that taught them that LRMs are useless and no-one uses them anyway.

2. So? AC/20s aren´t hindered by ECM or take several seconds to reach the target, which thus has time to break LOS/Lock before being hit.
Obviously Lasers, PPCs and autocannons are _totally_ OP, take them out of the game NAO!

3. What? No cover? As I said above, I moved around the entire enemy team (unseen I presume) and hit their rear in a slow heavy. There is tons and tons of cover. The kind of cover that prevents the enemy from seeing you - use it!

4. Yes, TELL IT TO THEM! Take the lead and bloody lead!

5. Well, that´s your choice.

So? i've done top damage and most kills on the map quite a few times with just cspls. Doesn't mean that they are good for that map. I would have been better off with ERLL or LRMS.

As for flamers i never said they were useful for anything. Robo said that all weapons were useful on this map. I was just pointing out that the medium to short range weapons aren't that much use on it. And that flamers are still useless. So not all the weapons are useful.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 24 January 2016 - 04:38 AM.

[Hawk_eye]

Spr1ggan, on 24 January 2016 - 04:37 AM, said:

So? i've done top damage and most kills on the map quite a few times with just cspls. Doesn't mean that they are good for that map. I would have been better off with ERLL or LRMS.

And if I go with a ER-PPC/ER-LL/LRM build and end up in Mining, I´d be better off mounting MPL/SRMs.

Long-Range weapons advantage: Long range (duh)
Long-Range weapons disadvantage: Less damage and more heat
Short-Range weapons advantage: More damage and less heat
Short-Range weapon disadvantage: Less range (again, duh)

If you only play on maps that pretty much nullify the disadvantages of short-range weapons, there is _no_ drawback to using them anymore and anybody not using them turns into a moron.

But quite obviously, handicapping long-range builds due to map layout is fine, handicapping short-range builds isn´t
Quite two standards here, wouldn´t you agree?

The point I´m trying to make here is:
The map is fine.
Actually, we need more of those kind of maps (ideally, I´d like a 50/50 split of short-range and long-range favoring maps, thrown at us randomly (yes, do away with map voting).
This would give the players two choices.
A) Build a specialized long- or short-ranged mech and accept to be handicapped in half your matches or
Build a more balanced mech that can do well on _all_ maps, but can´t curb-stomp on any map.

It´d be the players choice what to do, you know, decisions and consequences.

[Spr1ggan]

Antecursor Venatus, on 24 January 2016 - 05:43 AM, said:

And if I go with a ER-PPC/ER-LL/LRM build and end up in Mining, I´d be better off mounting MPL/SRMs.

Long-Range weapons advantage: Long range (duh)
Long-Range weapons disadvantage: Less damage and more heat
Short-Range weapons advantage: More damage and less heat
Short-Range weapon disadvantage: Less range (again, duh)

If you only play on maps that pretty much nullify the disadvantages of short-range weapons, there is _no_ drawback to using them anymore and anybody not using them turns into a moron.

But quite obviously, handicapping long-range builds due to map layout is fine, handicapping short-range builds isn´t
Quite two standards here, wouldn´t you agree?

The point I´m trying to make here is:
The map is fine.
Actually, we need more of those kind of maps (ideally, I´d like a 50/50 split of short-range and long-range favoring maps, thrown at us randomly (yes, do away with map voting).
This would give the players two choices.
A) Build a specialized long- or short-ranged mech and accept to be handicapped in half your matches or
Build a more balanced mech that can do well on _all_ maps, but can´t curb-stomp on any map.

It´d be the players choice what to do, you know, decisions and consequences.

The map is not fine. It needs more cover.

And no i don't have double standards for which weapons should be effective on which maps. I said ages ago that PGI should have implemented a loadout system that games like CoD, BF, and Titanfall have. So we can have a certain amount of mechs lined up and then pick which one when the map starts up.

But hey keep talking to me like i'm a new player. Not like i've won/got far in any leagues/tournaments or played for any good teams or anything.

[Hawk_eye]

Spr1ggan, on 24 January 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

The map is not fine. It needs more cover.

The map _is_ fine.
You want more cover?
Why?
Because it favors long-range builds?
Well, most other maps favor short-range builds.
Why not change all of _those_ maps, so only long-range builds are viable?
The answer for me is: Because versatility is good, because having to do with what I got is a challenge, because it gives me _choices_.

Spr1ggan, on 24 January 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

And no i don't have double standards for which weapons should be effective on which maps. I said ages ago that PGI should have implemented a loadout system that games like CoD, BF, and Titanfall have. So we can have a certain amount of mechs lined up and then pick which one when the map starts up.

But hey keep talking to me like i'm a new player. Not like i've won/got far in any leagues/tournaments or played for any good teams or anything.

And I am the complete opposite.

Having the choice of mech to pick after you know the map leads only to one thing. Everyone plays the same mech/build in both teams.
Laser-vomit on Frozen City, Gauss/AC boats on Terra Therma,...
If that is what you want, fine, but that sure isn´t the game _I_ want to play.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this
I like the uncertainty of random maps (well, as random as they are), having to make hard choices in the mechlab and having to make do with what I brought.
You (seem to) like to play optimized builds for whatever map you´re on.

Both preferences are fine (I don´t _share_ your preferences, but I can respect them), but they are mutually exclusive.
So unless there are enough players to split the player-base into two with two different - not sure how to call this, since game-mode is already used - there is no way we can both have what we want.

P.s.: What on Earth has your level of experience to do with any of this?

[Spr1ggan]

Antecursor Venatus, on 24 January 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

The map _is_ fine.
You want more cover?
Why?
Because it favors long-range builds?
Well, most other maps favor short-range builds.
Why not change all of _those_ maps, so only long-range builds are viable?
The answer for me is: Because versatility is good, because having to do with what I got is a challenge, because it gives me _choices_.




And I am the complete opposite.

Having the choice of mech to pick after you know the map leads only to one thing. Everyone plays the same mech/build in both teams.
Laser-vomit on Frozen City, Gauss/AC boats on Terra Therma,...
If that is what you want, fine, but that sure isn´t the game _I_ want to play.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this
I like the uncertainty of random maps (well, as random as they are), having to make hard choices in the mechlab and having to make do with what I brought.
You (seem to) like to play optimized builds for whatever map you´re on.

Both preferences are fine (I don´t _share_ your preferences, but I can respect them), but they are mutually exclusive.
So unless there are enough players to split the player-base into two with two different - not sure how to call this, since game-mode is already used - there is no way we can both have what we want.

P.s.: What on Earth has your level of experience to do with any of this?

Most of them really didn't favour short range. Which is why comp was so focused around ERLL for a long time. The only map that overwhelmingly favours short range builds is frozen city.

[Bulletsponge0]

adamts01, on 22 January 2016 - 05:35 AM, said:

It's the most realistic battlefield yet. Every weapon type is viable. All the arena fans and people who think LRMs are OP need to get over it.

or people can just learn to shoot down UAVs

getting a team to see and shoot down a UAV is the single hardest thing to do in MWO

[AnimeFreak40K]

I have yet to find/hear a good argument from anybody why Polar Highlands is a bad map.

Every single argument I have found against PH can be pretty much distilled down to the following:
- OMG LURMZ!!! PLZ NERF!
- OMG LONG RANGE WEAPONS!
- Takes too long to get into a fight
- Favors light/fast mechs, punishes heavy/slow mechs.
- Requires people to act like a team (seriously, a guy actually said this
- Punishes even the smallest mistake
- Little to no cover (read the 2 first bullets)

To me, these are not reasons why Polar Highlands is a bad map. They are reasons why these people don't like the map...and it seems to me that the people that deride this map hate it because it forces them to think/play differently. They can't stop to think beyond themselves and start thinking like a team. They lack the patience to maneuver into close-brawling range (using roundabout paths and terrain to avoid being spotted) and they lack the situational awareness to make use of the terrain.

Frankly, I *LIKE* this map for those exact reasons! It is forcing me to be more aware of my surroundings, what my teammates are doing and where they're at. It encourages some manner of communication as well...which is something a team-oriented game NEEDS.

Polar Highlands forces people to act and play as a team even if they're all PUGs...which should have been a thing since day one in this game.

I honestly have hope that there will be *more* maps like this and that people will take the lessons learned from this map into the already existing maps in this game... who knows, maybe people will try new things in Alpine Peaks, River City and Forrest Colony.

[adamts01]

Bulletsponge0, on 24 January 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

or people can just learn to shoot down UAVs

getting a team to see and shoot down a UAV is the single hardest thing to do in MWO

I've noticed the same thing. If LRMs aren't hitting them, they don't care. There isn't much thought about the rest of the team in most matches, just damage and kills.

[Hawk_eye]

Spr1ggan, on 24 January 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

Most of them really didn't favour short range. Which is why comp was so focused around ERLL for a long time. The only map that overwhelmingly favours short range builds is frozen city.

I admit that I am not a good player (I registered _way_ back, but only started actually playing some 3 months ago), so if this is true, then I cede that point to you.
Having said that, I sure got the impression that the more cover and the shorter the LOS, the more short ranged builds are favored.
And Mining, Bog, both Frozen Cities and large parts of Forest and River City sure seem to have rather lots of cover and short LOS´, which makes, um almost half of the available maps.

[athlonduke]

i'm 1/8 on this map. if you don't LRM you don't win. this is a horrible map with no options

[Bulletsponge0]

AnimeFreak40K, on 24 January 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

I have yet to find/hear a good argument from anybody why Polar Highlands is a bad map.

Every single argument I have found against PH can be pretty much distilled down to the following:
- OMG LURMZ!!! PLZ NERF!
- OMG LONG RANGE WEAPONS!
- Takes too long to get into a fight
- Favors light/fast mechs, punishes heavy/slow mechs.
- Requires people to act like a team (seriously, a guy actually said this
- Punishes even the smallest mistake
- Little to no cover (read the 2 first bullets)

To me, these are not reasons why Polar Highlands is a bad map. They are reasons why these people don't like the map...and it seems to me that the people that deride this map hate it because it forces them to think/play differently. They can't stop to think beyond themselves and start thinking like a team. They lack the patience to maneuver into close-brawling range (using roundabout paths and terrain to avoid being spotted) and they lack the situational awareness to make use of the terrain.

Frankly, I *LIKE* this map for those exact reasons! It is forcing me to be more aware of my surroundings, what my teammates are doing and where they're at. It encourages some manner of communication as well...which is something a team-oriented game NEEDS.

Polar Highlands forces people to act and play as a team even if they're all PUGs...which should have been a thing since day one in this game.

I honestly have hope that there will be *more* maps like this and that people will take the lessons learned from this map into the already existing maps in this game... who knows, maybe people will try new things in Alpine Peaks, River City and Forrest Colony.

Polar Highlands doesn't have cover...it has concealment.. thats a HUGE difference when discussing the map.

Concealment allows you to move without being seen.
Cover actually gives you protection from incoming fire.

Lots and lots of concealment on Polar...which is fantastic, as long as you aren't NARC'd or under an enemy UAV
if you are NARC'd or under a UAV, its a death sentence of the enemy has LRM boats because even though you are concealed, you can't get to the extremely limited areas that have actual cover before you are wrecked..

Map is good, it just needs a little tweaking to provide more actual cover...not a lot of cover, but enough to allow you to have a chance...

Antecursor Venatus, on 24 January 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

I admit that I am not a good player (I registered _way_ back, but only started actually playing some 3 months ago), so if this is true, then I cede that point to you.
Having said that, I sure got the impression that the more cover and the shorter the LOS, the more short ranged builds are favored.
And Mining, Bog, both Frozen Cities and large parts of Forest and River City sure seem to have rather lots of cover and short LOS´, which makes, um almost half of the available maps.

those maps also have areas with long sight lines too.

[Spr1ggan]

Antecursor Venatus, on 24 January 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

I admit that I am not a good player (I registered _way_ back, but only started actually playing some 3 months ago), so if this is true, then I cede that point to you.
Having said that, I sure got the impression that the more cover and the shorter the LOS, the more short ranged builds are favored.
And Mining, Bog, both Frozen Cities and large parts of Forest and River City sure seem to have rather lots of cover and short LOS´, which makes, um almost half of the available maps.

Yeah that is true. However there are areas on all those maps that you can set up and force a brawling team to try and advance through wide open terrain. Most of them end up legged or killed before getting into weapon range. So a lot of the drops in comp ended up being ERLL team vs ERLL team. Frozen being the major exception due to the size of the map.

Since the re-adjustment of quirks though we now have the Atlas back to being a tanking machine, and srm velocity increases etc. So i'm hoping to see much more brawling and mid range play come back to comp.

Edited by Spr1ggan, 24 January 2016 - 12:25 PM.

[AnimeFreak40K]

Bulletsponge0, on 24 January 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

Polar Highlands doesn't have cover...it has concealment.. thats a HUGE difference when discussing the map. Concealment allows you to move without being seen. Cover actually gives you protection from incoming fire. Lots and lots of concealment on Polar...which is fantastic, as long as you aren't NARC'd or under an enemy UAV if you are NARC'd or under a UAV, its a death sentence of the enemy has LRM boats because even though you are concealed, you can't get to the extremely limited areas that have actual cover before you are wrecked.. Map is good, it just needs a little tweaking to provide more actual cover...not a lot of cover, but enough to allow you to have a chance... those maps also have areas with long sight lines too.

There are areas that provide actual cover and concealment. These areas are mostly on the left and right areas of the map where the trenches are much deeper however. Also, some of the rolling hills are steep enough that they can also provide cover as well (but that depends more on the angle the LRMs are coming from however). I have made use of these areas more than once and it's saved my bacon as well.

...with regards to being NARCed being a death sentence, I am completely okay with this. Because this will force/encourage scouts to do scouting thing *AND* force people to be a team-player by watching each others back, keep on the lookout for Lights...and not go chasing them (as doing so will pull you out of concealment). These are all terrible, TERRIBLE habits that people in this game have (and I am just as guilty of this!)...and they need to be broken. And if it takes having maps that punish such behavior, then so be it.

[no one]

AnimeFreak40K, on 24 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

...with regards to being NARCed being a death sentence, I am completely okay with this.

That, and NARC projectiles travel at the speed of an underhand volley ball toss and can be destroyed by AMS. They have to be applied at loving suppository range.

This map really is a blast in a light 'Mech though.

Edited by no one, 25 January 2016 - 01:22 AM.

[MauttyKoray]

Hey y'all, I'm gonna let you finish...

But first?

The original Forest Colony was the best map of all time.

[no one]

MauttyKoray, on 25 January 2016 - 01:18 AM, said:

Hey y'all, I'm gonna let you finish...

But first?

The original Forest Colony was the best map of all time.

It was. Then we stopped having 8v8 matches and the magic was gone.

[speleomaniac]

Brawling is already a dying Art, this sort maps make the problem much worst.

I like brawling builds, Ac20s, SRM6s but just because of this map, I don't take them out at all, while the moment people see this map, they vote for it and it is quite stupid to run a AC20/SRM build in this map, you ripped to piece before you get into brawling range.

I only run my clans with Gauss rifles and Laser with the OP ranges, do I like it, no but the people who is saying deal with it, are just putting the last nail on the coffin of brawling.

[AnimeFreak40K]

no one, on 25 January 2016 - 01:13 AM, said:

That, and NARC projectiles travel at the speed of an underhand volley ball toss and can be destroyed by AMS. They have to be applied at loving suppository range. This map really is a blast in a light 'Mech though.

Agreed. I've had pretty good success with my Pirate's Bane running around as a scout and reasonable success with a Kit Fox with ECM and Triple AMS supporting the team

speleomaniac, on 25 January 2016 - 01:49 AM, said:

Brawling is already a dying Art, this sort maps make the problem much worst. I like brawling builds, Ac20s, SRM6s but just because of this map, I don't take them out at all, while the moment people see this map, they vote for it and it is quite stupid to run a AC20/SRM build in this map, you ripped to piece before you get into brawling range. I only run my clans with Gauss rifles and Laser with the OP ranges, do I like it, no but the people who is saying deal with it, are just putting the last nail on the coffin of brawling.

I want to know what the heck you're smoking and why you're not sharing?

I have been focusing on my Warhammers for this run (mostly for the event, but also to figure them out) and I've hit the hardest using a 6x ML and 3x SRM6 build.

I regularly break out my Atlas S when I'm in the mood to wreck face and because of the way LBX weapons work, my Bounty Hunter is best at shorter ranges as well.

Personally, I am looking forward to bringing my Atlas S to this map, it runs rather hot, and the fact that only Frozen City is colder, will be a very welcome benefit.

The reason why you get ripped to pieces before you get into brawling range is because either A - You are impatient and are unwilling to wait for the endgame of the match, when both teams are much closer to each other. B - You don't understand the nuances of this map to make the best use of terrain to stay out of sight while working on getting a better position.

That is not the fault of the map, or a so-called dying playstyle, that is you not making the proper adjustments to make the most out of the map you're on.