78 replies to this topic

[Irishtoker]

^ One of the nicest things about PH is the ability to pull counter maneuvers. By that I mean the unit as a whole can change the angle of their firing line and completely turn a battle around. Coordination comes into play every drop.

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 27 January 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

What I've been seeing more often is that one team will camp one of the building complexes that dot the map, then envelope the other team when they stop and try to huddle in the open like frightened sheep. This only works because people haven't learned how to maneuver - it basically uses their knee-jerk "camp and hide" responses from every other map in a situation where they only benefit the team in the buildings.

My last battle, the OpFor camped in one of the building complexes. We just used the gullies to envelope themin a semicircle so they had nowhere to hide, then collapse and crush when they tried to rush part of our line.
..

[Donnybrook]

I love playing a light mech with a BAP and TAG on this map.

[The Basilisk]

What I found most *enlightening* is how some very few ppl clap each others back for promoting PH as the epitome of tactical maps.

Well...IF and just IF...this map WOULD BE a CW or GROUP ONLY map I would concure without question.

But....it isn't.
Its one of the maps played in casual puglandia, random access, happenstance queue.
And so where the games I had so far on PH. Random, slow, pure accident.
Some guys stumbling around asking for guidance, and when given, just doing what they thought would be convenient at the time.
So basicaly 24 mechs distributing all over the map just doing stupid things.

And thats the reason why I think next to nobody does play it.
Had free time yesterday and was online next to all day and got 2x PH in over 20 matches and only because some ppl like to randomly klick around in the selector to let it blink like a one-armed bandit.

This map does not belong into casual queue. Its a royal pain everywhere you realy do not want it to hurt because casual solo puggers can't play it. ( or do not want to play after the rules that would enable you to play it effectively )

[Void Angel]

I was wondering when the denizens fo Troll Island would show up. I expected you earlier. I like how you make up "facts" in order to imply that your opinion is the majority - in three pages, there have been three repeat posters, excluding me (as the OP) and that one guy who was talking about punctuation. Not that this has any bearing on the veracity of the posts - it's just the typical way Islanders try to promote themselves as the Mouth of the People. Similarly, even in your anecdotal account of how often you played the map on that one day when you were playing for a while, you imply that people are selecting it by random happenstance by playing with their map vote - and not because anyone wanted to play that map. Oh, no! You don't like the map, so it can't possibly be popular even with a sizable minority.

Your criticism of the map boils down to people not learning how to play it. I wonder why that is. Could it be that previous map designs, combined with the latest series of metas, seem to reward camping behavior at the expense of actually moving around and using the map? Could it be that it's easier to vote it away than to learn? Players have become so set in their ways that I had one guy tell me over VoIP that our team "couldn't" have flanked to the left (on another map,) because all Battlemechs' Autocannon mounts are in the right torso! Leaving aside the fact that this isn'tstrictly true, his claim assumed a poke-and-peek style as the only way to play. It's kind of like this:



So you'll have to pardon me if I have very little sympathy for the viewpoint that this shouldn't be a solo queue map because people haven't learned how to play on it. The map shakes up the tactical environment in much needed ways - this is inherently a tactical team game, and maps that encourage team play and tactical thinking should not be relegated to premade teams and CW.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 January 2016 - 01:04 PM.

[Wintersdark]

The Basilisk, on 28 January 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

What I found most *enlightening* is how some very few ppl clap each others back for promoting PH as the epitome of tactical maps.

Well...IF and just IF...this map WOULD BE a CW or GROUP ONLY map I would concure without question.

But....it isn't.
Its one of the maps played in casual puglandia, random access, happenstance queue.
And so where the games I had so far on PH. Random, slow, pure accident.
Some guys stumbling around asking for guidance, and when given, just doing what they thought would be convenient at the time.
So basicaly 24 mechs distributing all over the map just doing stupid things.

And thats the reason why I think next to nobody does play it.
Had free time yesterday and was online next to all day and got 2x PH in over 20 matches and only because some ppl like to randomly klick around in the selector to let it blink like a one-armed bandit.

This map does not belong into casual queue. Its a royal pain everywhere you realy do not want it to hurt because casual solo puggers can't play it. ( or do not want to play after the rules that would enable you to play it effectively )

No. No, no, no.

This is the height of ********. I'll discuss most things as civilly as I can, whatever my feelings are, but:

"This map is bad because I don't think people can manage to play it without being in an organized team" is an absofuckinglutely terrible stand to take. I will not sacrifice what little "thinking" in the Thinking Man's Shooter we have just because you think it's too hard to manage.

No.

We need MORE maps that (in other ways) require tactical thought and promote complex gameplay. Want moronic empty headed clickfests? Solaris is on the way.

People can learn, or they can die.

[/rant]

All that said, my experience flatly contradicts your "facts" . I get lots of matches on that map due to regular voting. I've had ONE match result in people scattering about randomly, every other match has been brilliant, win or lose. I have matches on EVERY map that go the scattered crap route too, so that's not abPH feature.

[Donnybrook]

Honestly, I'd argue that all maps should be available to everyone regardless of Quick Play or Faction Play. There'd merely need to be boundary changes or "alternate" maps based on Community Warfare objectives (unless, *gasp*, CW objectives could be introduced to Quick Play like defending/destroying structures).

In any online multiplayer game where there are maps gated through some contrivance, it ends up fracturing the player base.

[rolling thunder]

I quite like the PH map. I have good days & I have bad days. Bad days are usually because I make a mistake {I make at least one mistake a game minimum} my problems start when the team isn't experienced enough {or paying attention} & the other side make me pay for my mistake & the team can't save me {not the maps fault}. PH is encouraging me to learn a different style of play in a Shadow Cat. I run away, which I don't like doing but that means I can pop up elsewhere and shoot some assault Mech in the backside. However it really doesn't matter how good you are if you are playing in a disorganised team, eventually you will be found & destroyed.
I'm trying to learn all the low ground so even when I can't use the gullies, I can use low ground to avoid giving the enemy a profile to shoot at.
I will say that indirect fire isn't necessarily the king on Polar Highlands. To much low terrain so it keeps breaking locks. It eventually comes down to fire and manoeuvre & pilots being willing to get stuck in while the little guys snipe around the edges?
You need Scouts on the map but once you have located the enemy you need light mechs to keep the enemies lights from picking off straggling mechs.

Edited by rolling thunder, 29 January 2016 - 02:50 AM.

[ArandomSTD]

I had a hard time figuring out what to do on this map.

Now I just go for flanks and use the trenches as cover as well as other mechs

Here is one of my latest games on Polar Highlands.

[Void Angel]

Lots of people are confused by Polar Highlands - that's why I started the thread.

[Wintersdark]

ArandomSTD, on 02 February 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

I had a hard time figuring out what to do on this map.

Now I just go for flanks and use the trenches as cover as well as other mechs

Here is one of my latest games on Polar Highlands.

What's great here is that you're realising that you're not sure what to do, and experimenting with it, rather than just assuming the map is bad. There's nothing wrong with being unsure of how to approach a new map.

[Dogan]

I don't hate Polar Highlands. I hate when I choose to play a slow brawling mech and I'm forced into Polar Highlands where my build basically cripples my ability to play.

Dogahn

[Void Angel]

It doesn't, though. It makes it harder, to be sure, but there are covered routes to everywhere you want to go if you look hard enough and are willing to go the long way around.

[DevlinCognito]

I cant like this thread enough, even if I feel it'll be completely lost on most folks. Polar Highlands is the map I've been waiting for since MWO started, and yet so many people immediately slate it as they have gotten far too comfortable in the tiny arenas we already have. People have been begging for 'Solaris style maps', not realising that is all we have had for god knows when, Polar Highlands feels like an actual battle, now PGI, many more like it please.

[Bud Crue]

Given my 2 cents on this map before. I still have no problems with the map per se. I like it. It can be super fun and exciting (can also suck if reds have lots of lrms and a lurker with a narc nails you). Map itself is fine. Maybe...

I have noticed however, that the map lay out (the wide open firing lines, the encouragement of LRMs and sniping) seems to have the affect of encouraging otherwise decent players to forget the value of a push. I noticed this shortly after the map dropped and since then I have seen this behavior spread like a virus such that the idea of a coordinated push seems to be so uncommon, that on occasion I have had to explain what is meant when I or someone else calls for a push.

What used to be almost taken for granted at nearly all levels of play is now something that is not readily apparent to many, and even requires explanation as a concept (Note: I spent plenty of time at T5, even there pushing was not as uncommon as it appears to be now). My asserted correlation with this change in understanding and behavior may be a coincidence to the introduction of Hoth, but since I see this A LOT on Hoth more than anywhere, I don't think so.

[The Basilisk]

Oh guys don't hit me ...
I'm totaly with you when you say the taste and skillset of the inhabitants of this little gameworld need to be....refined not only regarding the maps. But this is a different story.

But honestly I do not see how, since PGI now draws so much moneyspending players from the dregs of casual nooblandia aka steam.
I'm new in T3 and got the worst matches on PH, if the map is selected at all.
That IS my experience.
The next point is the still huge ammount of games AN AVERAGE PLAYER ( income still just around 100k per match 100+ matches to get a ragtag light IS Mech ) needs to get money to buy anything of use.
Single and group PuG is the primary source of money for most guys and girls out there.
More long matchtime maps where you need over 2 mins to even find the enemy, plus matchmaking and selection screen and so on won't sit well with your average player.
Also there is no coordination or communication.
Yes, yes maybe during your daytime or in tier 2 or tier 1 wonderland there is plenty of planforging and chatter over com but on averange there is next to no such thing.

No communication, no tactics no nothing.

Just running around.

Averange PuG MWO is running around and shooting.
Thats not to crittical on medium or smal maps where choke points and other more subtile geological structures are pretty ovious even for the averange after work 3 beer PuG warrior.
But on large tactical maps its catastrophic.

Since ppl WANT TO run around and JUST SHOOT something...I do not see how your demands towards player learning and preferences could ever be met.

[rolling thunder]

One of the downsides of Polar Highlands is the Gun Ho type who charge off leaving the Assaults lumbering behind, a trait made worse when the game is conquest. Everyone needs to stay together or the enemy will pick off the forward elements, then the heavies & finally the Assaults will arrive to late to be of use?
Don't stay in one place firing, move about popping up & shooting at the enemy. Remember you aren't helping your team if you aren't shooting the enemy; preferably the same enemy, consistently {so the MechWarrior feels like he/she's being picked on} to cause maximum damage while receiving minimum damage.
& i'm still making those same mistakes I always make{being to far forward & bumping into a couple of lights} & getting shot up!

[Void Angel]

That's what I love about the map - it punishes screw-your-buddy camping and encourages maneuver warfare. It's not that you can't fight in place, or that you must always be moving at any given time; it's that you have to be tactically flexible.

Basilisk, I know exactly what you mean - that's why I put up the thread! But I know from prior experience that players can absorb and adopt best practices in online games. Let me explain what I mean by way of an anecdotal story - the best kind of proof! Seriously, though, when I played vanilla WoW, Horde on our PvP server were outnumbered literally two to one (2/3 of the population was Alliance.) Yet the Horde dominated PvP, not just in the battlegrounds, but out in the world - the Alliance learned from brutal experience never to go anywhere alone. When I faced off in the Battlegrounds against Alliance PvP guilds (using their own VoIP) as a Horde PuG, I expected to win. Now, if you asked the Alliance players, this was all due to the Horde's racial cooldowns (those guys were pretty stupid) - but the real reason was that we were tougher because we had to be. If you couldn't or wouldn't learn to handle yourself in PvP, you didn't last as a Horde player - so we learned.

This game doesn't quite correlate, because there's no faction system in PuG matches; the clueless potatohead on your team this round may play against you in the next, and players who don't want to learn can just vote for another map. But it's because I've seen players adapt from experience and use solid tactical practices to defeat coordinated teams that I have some hope of positive effects from threads like this one.

Edited by Void Angel, 11 February 2016 - 10:51 AM.

[Speedkermit]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2016 - 07:13 AM, said:

Given my 2 cents on this map before. I still have no problems with the map per se. I like it. It can be super fun and exciting (can also suck if reds have lots of lrms and a lurker with a narc nails you). Map itself is fine. Maybe...

I have noticed however, that the map lay out (the wide open firing lines, the encouragement of LRMs and sniping) seems to have the affect of encouraging otherwise decent players to forget the value of a push. I noticed this shortly after the map dropped and since then I have seen this behavior spread like a virus such that the idea of a coordinated push seems to be so uncommon, that on occasion I have had to explain what is meant when I or someone else calls for a push.

What used to be almost taken for granted at nearly all levels of play is now something that is not readily apparent to many, and even requires explanation as a concept (Note: I spent plenty of time at T5, even there pushing was not as uncommon as it appears to be now). My asserted correlation with this change in understanding and behavior may be a coincidence to the introduction of Hoth, but since I see this A LOT on Hoth more than anywhere, I don't think so.

Last time I played this map I instigated a push that resulted in our team rolling up the enemy flank and wiping out their team in short order. You just have to be more patient on this map and probe for weaknesses.

It's the best map in the game. Win or lose, every match is dynamic and actual military tactics like flanking, scouting, fire and move are a thing.

So refreshing to have a map that isn't some variation of proceed to point X and brawl it out.

Edited by Speedkermit, 15 February 2016 - 08:56 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Speedkermit, on 15 February 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

Last time I played this map I instigated a push that resulted in our team rolling up the enemy flank and wiping out their team in short order. You just have to be more patient on this map and probe for weaknesses.

It's the best map in the game. Win or lose, every match is dynamic and actual military tactics like flanking, scouting, fire and move are a thing.

So refreshing to have a map that isn't some variation of proceed to point X and brawl it out.

Amusingly? I just had a loss on this map.

Both sides had a moderate amount of LRM's.

Our side moved up to a gully, and started peeking and poking in the standard manner.

Their side simply charged. Not a couple at a time, all of them. They just PUSHED, all together. Across open ground (over the rolling snow dunes area).

My team kept peeking and poking... And as one mech would peek, their whole team would fire at him, he'd duck back into cover.

Sure, we fired some lurms, as they were all in LOS the whole time, but it didn't matter as LRM's just don't get a lot of damage done quickly and effectively. LRM success relies on people chickening out and faltering.

Nope... they just PUSHED. Across some 600m of open terrain.

And they utterly crushed us. Without organization and target calling, our team was hitting basically random mechs as they came rather than focusing them down. Peeking and poking from cover allowed them to focus fire as there were few targets.

But a lot of people wouldn't even poke (certainly not after eating fire from 5+ mechs when they last poked), they just cowered.

It was a terrible, terrible loss for us, but it was a pretty epic game from a neutral, objective standpoint. It wasn't a MM failure. It wasn't "Oh, the map is bad." It was purely a matter of balls triumphing over fear.