62 replies to this topic

[oldradagast]

Dakota1000, on 23 January 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

You really do seem to be trolling though since you are just spewing "l2p" after every bad point you make.

He's either a troll, a tool, or both. Nobody who is remotely sane or who can compare two numbers, such as heat and damage numbers, and determine which one is larger can conclude that PPC's are better than large pulse lasers.

Large pulse lasers put out more damage for less heat AND are hit-scan weapons, thus requiring very limited leading ability and evading the worst of hit-reg issues. Oh, and they have no minimum range. The ONLY use for PPC's, objectively, in the current environment is to either shut down ECM for LRM's barrages (which is still less effective than laser vomit), or be used with jump-sniper mechs since that's the only real situation where the burn-time of a large pulse laser might be an issue. That's it.

I have no idea what his problem is, but he clearly needs to "learn to do math" and stop picking fights about things he simply doesn't understand. He has yet to present a single decent argument to support his position, and if "I'm good with it, so it is good" is to be used as an argument, than the Hunchback-4P is the best mech in the game since I, strangely, have the highest K/D ratio with it. Clearly, everyone else needs to "learn to play."

Edited by oldradagast, 23 January 2016 - 08:25 AM.

[SpiralFace]

PPC's are ok on their own, but the issue with comparing them to lasers on their own is that you don't compare them to lasers on a 1 to 1 basis, you are comparing them on PPC's vs full blown laser spam.

PGI took their time to make sure that PPC's don't sync well with many other weapons in the game (given their previous meta issues.) But the issue is that now the PPC's don't sync with ANYTHING while lasers are easily spamible with the entire weapon line, and there is ZERO ways that they can mechanically de-sync lasers with the current system.

So in the end, while a single PPC is actually very comperable to a LL (same damage to heat ratio, etc.) It can't be compared to lasers because you are comparing a balistic projectile weapon to not just a single laser system, but Laser spam as a whole.

Until they find a way to de-sync laser spam from the high to low cal lasers, nothing a PPC can do without adding in the stupid weapon pairings that people hated in the first place. (as it made PPC's viability revolve around a mechs ability to take its complimentary weapon system.

Laser spam, and for that, High alpha chasing meta as a whole just needs work. The reason laser spam is so dominant is strictly because how well it pairs with everything to chase massive alphas, while other weapons can't rely on complimentary pairings to maximize on them. In the end, the PPC by itself is fine, its more the fact that LASER SPAM as a whole is imbalanced to everything else in how it perfectly pairs with everything.

[oldradagast]

PPC's could be made useful again if they simple increased the speed and removed the minimum range. The speed is an obvious problem - the only mechs that you ever see PPC's on are ones with PPC speed boosting quirks, which clearly means the base speed is too low. And the minimum range restriction is crippling AND silly. So, the bolt of plasma fires from my mech's gun... and magically does no damage until 90m - why?! It's odd enough that LRM's don't do anything until 180m - you'd think some of them would explode or something, even if not yet armed - but having what is basically an energy bullet do nothing until it's 90m from the gun barrel is just nuts.

Edited by oldradagast, 23 January 2016 - 08:29 AM.

[KodiakGW]

You are correct. Every weapon has hit reg problems. I've seen my SRMs pass through mechs standing still less than 90 meters from me. I've done full burns with Large Pulse Lasers only to see the paper doll give me the "Pope of Nope! - Only Glancing Hit!"

But, it not only does it have the highest heat per use for an energy weapon, it also has the highest cool down. Make those hit reg problem more noticeable in a fire fight. Add in the clipping issues, the BS no-damage-under-90 meters for the PPC, and travel time, you have a problematic weapon.

As it stands, I'd rather take an LBX10 over either PPC. I have more fun with that, especially coupling it with SRMs now.

[Bishop Steiner]

Totenxcx, on 23 January 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

Oh wow! That's your case? I have about 4k games played and have yet to witness that happening.

I just did it Tuesday.... but it's such a rarity, even with "good" players, as to be not much a consideration for how useful a weapon is.

I love PPCs, use them as often as possible... but I refuse to sugarcoat their flaws. Heat for damage in the MWO version is objectively worse. The projectile size and it's terrain clipping issues are objectively worse. Without massive quirks it is not just a matter of lead and aiming that hurts PPCs but that at long range, Lights and Mediums can literally dodge them. And at extreme ranges, due to base heat and GH, they can pack 3 Large lasers of various sorts right back in your face.

Etc, etc. There are pros and cons for both. Objectively, you get rushed, PPCs are much worse, because you simply cannot maintain a reasonable DPS volume of fire, and using them in conjunction with other weapons is iffy due to heat. Add in the minimum range and a definite issue. (And of course ERPPCs are simple too hot to pair with anythign but Gauss, realistically)

And in most cases, again, unless monstrously quirked, at the medium ranges one usually fights, a pair of ac10s are actualyl vastly superior to a pair of ppcs. (weight balances out due to heatsinks/endurance) better rof, far better heat, etc.

As to the whole I make them work, so if you can't, you are bad? Meh. Epeen is always a bad basis for an argument.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 January 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Davegt27]

PPCs' suck unless they look like this lol

https://youtu.be/T3BkL67cDjQ?t=120

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

And in most cases, again, unless monstrously quirked

Lets be honest here. We all build mechs around quirks now. Anyone who doesnt is doing it wrong. If you take PPC's, of course they are going to be quirked. So will the LPL. But in the end, the PPC still provides pinpoint damage at longer ranges. It also gets more benefit from the energy range quirk, and at those longer ranges, it deals more damage than the LPL, because the damage starts to fall off for the LPL.

The LPL is a great weapon, I like it too. But to say PPC's are bad when they clearly provide more damage, pinpoint damage also, at longer ranges, is just silly imo.

Edited by Alwrath, 23 January 2016 - 08:51 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Alwrath, on 23 January 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

Lets be honest here. We all build mechs around quirks now. Anyone who doesnt is doing it wrong. If you take PPC's, of course they are going to be quirked. So will the LPL. But in the end, the PPC still provides pinpoint damage at longer ranges. It also gets more benefit from the energy range quirk, and at those longer ranges, it deals more damage than the LPL, because the damage starts to fall off for the LPL.

The LPL is a great weapon, I like it too. But to say PPC's are bad when they clearly provide more damage, pinpoint damage also, at longer ranges, is just silly imo.

They don't provide more damage though. PPCs are 10, LPLs are 11.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Dakota1000, on 23 January 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

They don't provide more damage though. PPCs are 10, LPLs are 11.

Yes but as range increases the LPL damage goes down. It gets reduced. the PPC has a longer optimal range, so at that range it ends up doing more damage, and its pinpoint.

[Red Shrike]

Davegt27, on 23 January 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

PPCs' suck unless they look like this lol

https://youtu.be/T3BkL67cDjQ?t=120

I prefer https://youtu.be/orhOvbfyyJw?t=1m38s

[VorpalAnvil]

OP is trolling. You all fell for it. 2/10

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

VorpalAnvil, on 23 January 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

OP is trolling. You all fell for it. 2/10

Thankyou for trolling and contributing absolutely nothing to the thread. The door is behind you, dont trip on your way out.

[Lightfoot]

1.) There is a bug.

2.) For being so hot they are too slow in travel times. You see when a weapon uses a mech's resources of heat dissipation and weight/space it provides damage dealing abilities. The more resources that are used the better the abilities. A single ERPPC in MWO uses 13 double heatsinks to run nominally in combat, use less and heat becomes a problem, that's ok so say 10-11 double heatsinks (DHS 1.4).

So your ERPPC actually consumes 17 tons and 33 critical slots to do 10 damage. Compare to an AC10 with 2 tons of ammo and 1 heatsink which consumes 15 tons and 12 critical slots. The difference is the ERPPC costs 2 tons and 21 critical slots more than the AC10 and remember that the AC10 has a reliable DPS of 4.00 and the ERPPC has a maximum of 2.50 until it overheats.

So what does the ERPPC get for it's lower DPS plus 2 tons, plus 21 critical slots? 250 mps speed boost! That's why ERPPCs and PPCs suck and the only mechs that field them well get a significant quirking in speed and heat reduction. Skill is not the factor here. For that kind of payload requirement the ERPPC should have a travel time of 1600-1700 mps.

PGI doesn't follow basic Battle Tech rules for weighting their weapons so for them if a weapon works accurately at long range it is nerfed until those abilities are removed so the weapon is friendly to mechs with brawling range loadouts.

-yw

Edited by Lightfoot, 23 January 2016 - 09:09 AM.

[Deathlike]

This thread is going places...

The most concentrated use of PPCs are used with mechs with PPC quirks. Finding players that use PPCs in non-PPC quirked mechs are either looking for unicorns or players that don't know any better.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 January 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[Gamuray]

I have nine words for you people. Jump Sniping.

[Kuritaclan]

If a Mech (Warhammer) get released wich is iconic for PPC usage, and has a 50% Quirk in velocity for PPC, to make people use that weapon System on a mech that by lore is equipped with it, then and maybe only then something is wrong with it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 23 January 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

This thread is going places...

The most concentrated use of PPCs are used with mechs with PPC quirks. Finding players that use PPCs in non-PPC quirked mechs are either looking for unicorns or players that don't know any better.

so the title is pretty misleading, because unless MASSIVELY quirked? PPCs are bad, whereas LPL and such are better quirked but worth taking even if not quirked.

Mind you, my HBK-IIC-A doesn't get any nice quirks for it's C-ERPPCs, but I do prefer them precisely for their PPFLD (staring at stuff in IICs gets you dead even faster than most mechs) but they still aren't good.

Kuritaclan, on 23 January 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

If a Mech (Warhammer) get released wich is iconic for PPC usage, and has a 50% Quirk in velocity for PPC, to make people use that weapon System on a mech that by lore is equipped with it, then and maybe only then something is wrong with it.

and still over half the ones on the field don't have PPCs at all......

[Kuritaclan]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Kuritaclan, on 23 January 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

If a Mech (Warhammer) get released wich is iconic for PPC usage, and has a 50% Quirk in velocity for PPC, to make people use that weapon System on a mech that by lore is equipped with it, then and maybe only then something is wrong with it.

and still over half the ones on the field don't have PPCs at all......

sad state of affairs.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 January 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

so the title is pretty misleading, because unless MASSIVELY quirked? PPCs are bad, whereas LPL and such are better quirked but worth taking even if not quirked.

Well...

When you have weapons that you don't really think about adding it to a build, then it's usually fairly balanced.

Medium Lasers work pretty much everywhere and is good for most common situations... so for the most part, it isn't problematic at all.

An IS Small Laser or IS Small Pulse Laser is "functional", but rarely used outside of Lights or variants that have energy range quirks. While very much in a niche, very rarely anyone would consider these weapons outside of their situational uses.

The ER Large Laser in some ways competes with the Large Laser.. in the aspect that you're trading .25 seconds of duration (or stare down time) to deal the same exact damage at a longer range. Under most circumstances, this is vastly inefficient (the tradeoff is too much in duration - it should be closer to .15 seconds with possibly a slight damage increase). What happens is that the only time it is actually used is when you have massive range buffs (sometimes in the order of 20% range) or have a duration buff (at least 10% duration or so).

This tells you that there is a dependency on the quirk for a weapon to function.. and that in itself is a core problem. When a weapon is solely dependent on quirks to make one weapon system useful, it is a problem.

Ignoring the problem doesn't make the weapon better.

If Paul decided that ERPPCs max range was set to 500m... outside of the quirked PPC mechs, very few people would care... because it is very hard for the projectile to be effective at its current 810m optimal range. Even just the slight movement in some other direction of the target stopping in its tracks (for whatever the reason) would make the ERPPC miss its target. Lasers will spread damage, at least damage will hit its target... so for most people it becomes a "risk vs reward" proposition.

The risk of taking PPCs is totally outweighed by how much better the alternatives are.

Edited by Deathlike, 23 January 2016 - 09:49 AM.

[Valdherre Tor]

Yep PPCs suck even when quirked, OP I didn't see you on the leader boards. But hey I have this account and SCRUBWARRIOROFFLINE account on the boards that have LPL builds.