Started to notice a crap ton of Jenner pilots jamming themselves right up against heavier pilots.
I think I've figured out why:
4
Jenner Hit Detection Issue
Started by Dimento Graven, Jan 23 2016 09:49 AM
21 replies to this topic
#2
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Posted 23 January 2016 - 01:09 PM
Grats, you figured out that 'mechs shutting down while moving can have wonky hitboxes. Shocking.
Edited by Ironwithin, 23 January 2016 - 01:09 PM.
#3
Posted 23 January 2016 - 02:17 PM
Ironwithin, on 23 January 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:
Grats, you figured out that 'mechs shutting down while moving can have wonky hitboxes. Shocking.
Get a vid showing it, well, that's hard to ignore...
#4
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Posted 23 January 2016 - 03:35 PM
Why did you edit the hell out of this? That's kinda irritating. =/
#5
Posted 23 January 2016 - 03:52 PM
Tarogato, on 23 January 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:
Why did you edit the hell out of this? That's kinda irritating. =/
Because past experience tells me that the white knights will make every f'ing excuse possible to deny what is being seen.
Capturing it, then slowing it down, and zooming in leaves little room for argument.
#6
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Posted 23 January 2016 - 04:12 PM
Welcome to the irregularly working "lagcompensation" called HSR, against which I have been since it´s implementation .
Gave up along time ago collecting, editing and uploading those videos and went back to actually playing and having the odd rageattack because of HSR .
Gave up along time ago collecting, editing and uploading those videos and went back to actually playing and having the odd rageattack because of HSR .
#7
Posted 23 January 2016 - 04:14 PM
Rad Hanzo, on 23 January 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:
Welcome to the irregularly working "lagcompensation" called HSR, against which I have been since it´s implementation .
Gave up along time ago collecting, editing and uploading those videos and went back to actually playing and having the odd rageattack because of HSR .
Gave up along time ago collecting, editing and uploading those videos and went back to actually playing and having the odd rageattack because of HSR .
I figure with one stationary, and one nearly stationary 'mech, HSR wouldn't have much to say about it...
#9
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Posted 23 January 2016 - 06:13 PM
Sweet, so that really helps us get a feeling for the cooldowns and burn durations, etc.
First thing I noticed was... I don't know how you actually legged that Jenner. Based on the colour of the paperdoll, I would guess that the right leg was just under 80% armour, so it had around 25 armour left and 16 structure for a total of ~41. Not sure how you legged him in one shot of dual gauss, which is only 30 damage. His leg would had to have been at like 40% armour (deep orange) for a dual gauss to lob it off in one volley. And I didn't see anything else hit that leg in that period of time from other mechs. Seems like bullcrap to me, the numbers don't seem to add up.
After you leg him, you spray a pair of ERLL all over him, but it splashes all over him and deals basically no damage. Thankfully we get a stable paperdoll before the next shots occur, and it looks like this:
My guess as to the armour conditions:
RT 70% (23 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
CT 80% (32 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 40 points)
LT 65% (22 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 18 points)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 24 points)
Then he shuts down and you spray your ERLL all over just about every component on his mech again. But you follow up with dual gauss to the CT and it hits. We get another stable paperdoll:
My guess as to the conditions:
RT 70% (22 armour remains) (no appreciable difference, ERLL splash didn't do much)
CT 90% (20 structure remains) (took about 34 damage, consistent with your gauss and ERLL splash.)
LT 65% (21 armour remains) (no appreciable different, ERLL splash didn't do much)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (was not damaged)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (was not damaged)
Next you put a full burn of 2x ERLL into his CT. A little bit of it spreads to his left leg and a little bit to his cockpit, but we'll assume all of the damage went to CT for the purposes of this calculation because the difference is negligible. It's possible that the Jenner also cooked his CT internals from overheating, because we saw the paper doll flash before the the ERLL was fired, but the amount of damage dealt by the overheat would have been fairly negligible, probably only 1-3 damage. Now... you follow up with dual gauss, but it's right as the Jenner powers up and twists his torso, so it's not completely apparent where your gauss rounds went. HSR could have decided that the Jenner had already begun twisting when your rounds connected, but let's take a look at the paper doll and calculate the numbers as best we can again:
RT 70% (20 armour remains) (was not damaged)
CT ~5% (1 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, consistent with a full burn of ERLL)
LT 85% (14 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, almost consistent with a single round of gauss)
HD 80% (14 armour remains) (probably from your ERLL)
LA 15% (4 armour remains) (completely consistent with a single round of gauss)
Next we see some medium lasers coming in from an ally to our left. They initially fly a bit high and hit the left arm and left torso, but the convergence eventually clips the CT and the Jenner immediately pops before you even get to fire your ERLL again.
Conclusion? Doing maths based on paper doll colour is very rough work, I tried to be as exact as possible using this resource, but there is plenty margin for error. That said, the numbers seem to be consistent with what the server saw. All of your shots registered properly and the appropriate amount of damage was done. The only hook was that HSR saw the Jenner twist earlier than your client did and it seems that your left gauss rifle clipped the Jenner's left torso and your right gauss rifle connected with the Jenner's left arm. Imagine now if you were in the Jenner's shoes and you twisted your torso away at the last second but still got nailed in the CT anyways. Admittedly he didn't do much twisting, but it was enough to put different components under your crosshair from the ones you intended to hit and as a result he lived to fire another alpha. Seems to me like HSR working as intended - it's a compromised system, it attempts to be faithful to both parties as much as possible, but concessions must be made. I don't see any issues here with hit registration itself.
I'm still puzzled about the right leg, though... that's just weird.
First thing I noticed was... I don't know how you actually legged that Jenner. Based on the colour of the paperdoll, I would guess that the right leg was just under 80% armour, so it had around 25 armour left and 16 structure for a total of ~41. Not sure how you legged him in one shot of dual gauss, which is only 30 damage. His leg would had to have been at like 40% armour (deep orange) for a dual gauss to lob it off in one volley. And I didn't see anything else hit that leg in that period of time from other mechs. Seems like bullcrap to me, the numbers don't seem to add up.
After you leg him, you spray a pair of ERLL all over him, but it splashes all over him and deals basically no damage. Thankfully we get a stable paperdoll before the next shots occur, and it looks like this:
My guess as to the armour conditions:
RT 70% (23 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
CT 80% (32 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 40 points)
LT 65% (22 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 18 points)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 24 points)
Then he shuts down and you spray your ERLL all over just about every component on his mech again. But you follow up with dual gauss to the CT and it hits. We get another stable paperdoll:
My guess as to the conditions:
RT 70% (22 armour remains) (no appreciable difference, ERLL splash didn't do much)
CT 90% (20 structure remains) (took about 34 damage, consistent with your gauss and ERLL splash.)
LT 65% (21 armour remains) (no appreciable different, ERLL splash didn't do much)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (was not damaged)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (was not damaged)
Next you put a full burn of 2x ERLL into his CT. A little bit of it spreads to his left leg and a little bit to his cockpit, but we'll assume all of the damage went to CT for the purposes of this calculation because the difference is negligible. It's possible that the Jenner also cooked his CT internals from overheating, because we saw the paper doll flash before the the ERLL was fired, but the amount of damage dealt by the overheat would have been fairly negligible, probably only 1-3 damage. Now... you follow up with dual gauss, but it's right as the Jenner powers up and twists his torso, so it's not completely apparent where your gauss rounds went. HSR could have decided that the Jenner had already begun twisting when your rounds connected, but let's take a look at the paper doll and calculate the numbers as best we can again:
RT 70% (20 armour remains) (was not damaged)
CT ~5% (1 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, consistent with a full burn of ERLL)
LT 85% (14 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, almost consistent with a single round of gauss)
HD 80% (14 armour remains) (probably from your ERLL)
LA 15% (4 armour remains) (completely consistent with a single round of gauss)
Next we see some medium lasers coming in from an ally to our left. They initially fly a bit high and hit the left arm and left torso, but the convergence eventually clips the CT and the Jenner immediately pops before you even get to fire your ERLL again.
Conclusion? Doing maths based on paper doll colour is very rough work, I tried to be as exact as possible using this resource, but there is plenty margin for error. That said, the numbers seem to be consistent with what the server saw. All of your shots registered properly and the appropriate amount of damage was done. The only hook was that HSR saw the Jenner twist earlier than your client did and it seems that your left gauss rifle clipped the Jenner's left torso and your right gauss rifle connected with the Jenner's left arm. Imagine now if you were in the Jenner's shoes and you twisted your torso away at the last second but still got nailed in the CT anyways. Admittedly he didn't do much twisting, but it was enough to put different components under your crosshair from the ones you intended to hit and as a result he lived to fire another alpha. Seems to me like HSR working as intended - it's a compromised system, it attempts to be faithful to both parties as much as possible, but concessions must be made. I don't see any issues here with hit registration itself.
I'm still puzzled about the right leg, though... that's just weird.
Edited by Tarogato, 23 January 2016 - 06:18 PM.
#10
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Posted 23 January 2016 - 08:25 PM
Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:
...
Get a vid showing it, well, that's hard to ignore...
Get a vid showing it, well, that's hard to ignore...
True, well done on that count.
Not a problem confined to the jenner IIC, though.
#11
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Posted 23 January 2016 - 08:35 PM
- Jenner is super squishy
- Game has hit reg issues, not exclusively the jenner.
- Game has to deal with lag, latency spikes, packet loss.
- Player has to account for this lag when shooting at targets as well.
Cheers
- Game has hit reg issues, not exclusively the jenner.
- Game has to deal with lag, latency spikes, packet loss.
- Player has to account for this lag when shooting at targets as well.
Cheers
#12
Posted 23 January 2016 - 09:56 PM
Tarogato, on 23 January 2016 - 06:13 PM, said:
Sweet, so that really helps us get a feeling for the cooldowns and burn durations, etc.
First thing I noticed was... I don't know how you actually legged that Jenner. Based on the colour of the paperdoll, I would guess that the right leg was just under 80% armour, so it had around 25 armour left and 16 structure for a total of ~41. Not sure how you legged him in one shot of dual gauss, which is only 30 damage. His leg would had to have been at like 40% armour (deep orange) for a dual gauss to lob it off in one volley. And I didn't see anything else hit that leg in that period of time from other mechs. Seems like bullcrap to me, the numbers don't seem to add up.
After you leg him, you spray a pair of ERLL all over him, but it splashes all over him and deals basically no damage. Thankfully we get a stable paperdoll before the next shots occur, and it looks like this:
My guess as to the armour conditions:
RT 70% (23 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
CT 80% (32 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 40 points)
LT 65% (22 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 18 points)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 24 points)
Then he shuts down and you spray your ERLL all over just about every component on his mech again. But you follow up with dual gauss to the CT and it hits. We get another stable paperdoll:
My guess as to the conditions:
RT 70% (22 armour remains) (no appreciable difference, ERLL splash didn't do much)
CT 90% (20 structure remains) (took about 34 damage, consistent with your gauss and ERLL splash.)
LT 65% (21 armour remains) (no appreciable different, ERLL splash didn't do much)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (was not damaged)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (was not damaged)
Next you put a full burn of 2x ERLL into his CT. A little bit of it spreads to his left leg and a little bit to his cockpit, but we'll assume all of the damage went to CT for the purposes of this calculation because the difference is negligible. It's possible that the Jenner also cooked his CT internals from overheating, because we saw the paper doll flash before the the ERLL was fired, but the amount of damage dealt by the overheat would have been fairly negligible, probably only 1-3 damage. Now... you follow up with dual gauss, but it's right as the Jenner powers up and twists his torso, so it's not completely apparent where your gauss rounds went. HSR could have decided that the Jenner had already begun twisting when your rounds connected, but let's take a look at the paper doll and calculate the numbers as best we can again:
RT 70% (20 armour remains) (was not damaged)
CT ~5% (1 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, consistent with a full burn of ERLL)
LT 85% (14 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, almost consistent with a single round of gauss)
HD 80% (14 armour remains) (probably from your ERLL)
LA 15% (4 armour remains) (completely consistent with a single round of gauss)
Next we see some medium lasers coming in from an ally to our left. They initially fly a bit high and hit the left arm and left torso, but the convergence eventually clips the CT and the Jenner immediately pops before you even get to fire your ERLL again.
Conclusion? Doing maths based on paper doll colour is very rough work, I tried to be as exact as possible using this resource, but there is plenty margin for error. That said, the numbers seem to be consistent with what the server saw. All of your shots registered properly and the appropriate amount of damage was done. The only hook was that HSR saw the Jenner twist earlier than your client did and it seems that your left gauss rifle clipped the Jenner's left torso and your right gauss rifle connected with the Jenner's left arm. Imagine now if you were in the Jenner's shoes and you twisted your torso away at the last second but still got nailed in the CT anyways. Admittedly he didn't do much twisting, but it was enough to put different components under your crosshair from the ones you intended to hit and as a result he lived to fire another alpha. Seems to me like HSR working as intended - it's a compromised system, it attempts to be faithful to both parties as much as possible, but concessions must be made. I don't see any issues here with hit registration itself.
I'm still puzzled about the right leg, though... that's just weird.
First thing I noticed was... I don't know how you actually legged that Jenner. Based on the colour of the paperdoll, I would guess that the right leg was just under 80% armour, so it had around 25 armour left and 16 structure for a total of ~41. Not sure how you legged him in one shot of dual gauss, which is only 30 damage. His leg would had to have been at like 40% armour (deep orange) for a dual gauss to lob it off in one volley. And I didn't see anything else hit that leg in that period of time from other mechs. Seems like bullcrap to me, the numbers don't seem to add up.
After you leg him, you spray a pair of ERLL all over him, but it splashes all over him and deals basically no damage. Thankfully we get a stable paperdoll before the next shots occur, and it looks like this:
My guess as to the armour conditions:
RT 70% (23 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
CT 80% (32 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 40 points)
LT 65% (22 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 30 points)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 18 points)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (assuming 100% = 24 points)
Then he shuts down and you spray your ERLL all over just about every component on his mech again. But you follow up with dual gauss to the CT and it hits. We get another stable paperdoll:
My guess as to the conditions:
RT 70% (22 armour remains) (no appreciable difference, ERLL splash didn't do much)
CT 90% (20 structure remains) (took about 34 damage, consistent with your gauss and ERLL splash.)
LT 65% (21 armour remains) (no appreciable different, ERLL splash didn't do much)
HD 95% (17 armour remains) (was not damaged)
LA 80% (19 armour remains) (was not damaged)
Next you put a full burn of 2x ERLL into his CT. A little bit of it spreads to his left leg and a little bit to his cockpit, but we'll assume all of the damage went to CT for the purposes of this calculation because the difference is negligible. It's possible that the Jenner also cooked his CT internals from overheating, because we saw the paper doll flash before the the ERLL was fired, but the amount of damage dealt by the overheat would have been fairly negligible, probably only 1-3 damage. Now... you follow up with dual gauss, but it's right as the Jenner powers up and twists his torso, so it's not completely apparent where your gauss rounds went. HSR could have decided that the Jenner had already begun twisting when your rounds connected, but let's take a look at the paper doll and calculate the numbers as best we can again:
RT 70% (20 armour remains) (was not damaged)
CT ~5% (1 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, consistent with a full burn of ERLL)
LT 85% (14 structure remains) (took about 19 damage, almost consistent with a single round of gauss)
HD 80% (14 armour remains) (probably from your ERLL)
LA 15% (4 armour remains) (completely consistent with a single round of gauss)
Next we see some medium lasers coming in from an ally to our left. They initially fly a bit high and hit the left arm and left torso, but the convergence eventually clips the CT and the Jenner immediately pops before you even get to fire your ERLL again.
Conclusion? Doing maths based on paper doll colour is very rough work, I tried to be as exact as possible using this resource, but there is plenty margin for error. That said, the numbers seem to be consistent with what the server saw. All of your shots registered properly and the appropriate amount of damage was done. The only hook was that HSR saw the Jenner twist earlier than your client did and it seems that your left gauss rifle clipped the Jenner's left torso and your right gauss rifle connected with the Jenner's left arm. Imagine now if you were in the Jenner's shoes and you twisted your torso away at the last second but still got nailed in the CT anyways. Admittedly he didn't do much twisting, but it was enough to put different components under your crosshair from the ones you intended to hit and as a result he lived to fire another alpha. Seems to me like HSR working as intended - it's a compromised system, it attempts to be faithful to both parties as much as possible, but concessions must be made. I don't see any issues here with hit registration itself.
I'm still puzzled about the right leg, though... that's just weird.
Again, I get that White Knights will be "White Knights", but seriously dude, the zoomed in slowed down version shows it plainly.
M i n i MT, on 23 January 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:
- Jenner is super squishy
Quote
- Game has hit reg issues, not exclusively the jenner.
Quote
- Game has to deal with lag, latency spikes, packet loss.
- Player has to account for this lag when shooting at targets as well.
- Player has to account for this lag when shooting at targets as well.
When I miss, I know it. When the game has malfed up, it's fairly obvious too.
This, is a case of the game malfing up.
#13
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Posted 23 January 2016 - 10:21 PM
Dimento Graven, on 23 January 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:
And this is why I provide the slowed down, zoomed in version, where you can see the gauss pass THROUGH the cockpit and explode "inside" the Jenner.
Again, I get that White Knights will be "White Knights", but seriously dude, the zoomed in slowed down version shows it plainly.
Again, I get that White Knights will be "White Knights", but seriously dude, the zoomed in slowed down version shows it plainly.
Then why does the damage on the paperdoll show that your shots all registered in places that you would expect them to register? While there is a margin for error in calculating armour and structure points based off of paper doll colouration, a missing 15 points of damage is quite significant. Something of that magnitude should be apparent after making the calculations, but everything seems to be accounted for. Where did the extra magical 15-30 damage come from since yours didn't register?
Also... did you happen to notice that the impact particles seemed to emanate from the Jenner's left torso, right where the hitbox was when he torso twisted according to the server calculation? Again, due to latency, you did not hit his CT. He twisted, and your shot missed the CT, hitting the next thing in line - his left torso and possibly due to convergence, his left arm.
Edited by Tarogato, 23 January 2016 - 10:31 PM.
#14
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Posted 24 January 2016 - 12:15 AM
Just to correct Tarogato, HSR does not try "to be faithful to both parties as much as possible". It's lag compensation that registers hits based on where the target would be for the firer. The server does this by rewinding the state based on ping. If functioning perfectly then the twist that happens after, from Dimento's point of view, would not matter. Read more about it here: http://mwomercs.com/...rewind-phase-1/
As for the problem in the OP; meh. The discrepancy is pretty small. Only one Gauss appears to hit the cockpit. Even if you had hit it you'd not have killed him. I can think of multiple explanations as to why this happened but the truth is I don't give a fuсk.
As for the problem in the OP; meh. The discrepancy is pretty small. Only one Gauss appears to hit the cockpit. Even if you had hit it you'd not have killed him. I can think of multiple explanations as to why this happened but the truth is I don't give a fuсk.
#15
Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:24 AM
Tarogato, on 23 January 2016 - 10:21 PM, said:
Then why does the damage on the paperdoll show that your shots all registered in places that you would expect them to register? While there is a margin for error in calculating armour and structure points based off of paper doll colouration, a missing 15 points of damage is quite significant. Something of that magnitude should be apparent after making the calculations, but everything seems to be accounted for. Where did the extra magical 15-30 damage come from since yours didn't register?
Also... did you happen to notice that the impact particles seemed to emanate from the Jenner's left torso, right where the hitbox was when he torso twisted according to the server calculation? Again, due to latency, you did not hit his CT. He twisted, and your shot missed the CT, hitting the next thing in line - his left torso and possibly due to convergence, his left arm.
At least ONE hit that cockpit, and the cockpit was already damaged, there should have been NO armor on the cockpit, it should have been crit red before it died, it was not.
IF both shots miss the cockpit, the hit boxes on the Jenner should have BOTH shots hitting the ALREADY open yellow CT, 30 points to an open yellow Jenner CT, when registering, kill them (I know, I've missed the cockpits of Jenners regularly enough to see the effects).
Instead it appears maybe ONE shot registers on the side torso, the other... Not sure.
#16
Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:28 AM
Odins Steed, on 24 January 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:
Just to correct Tarogato, HSR does not try "to be faithful to both parties as much as possible". It's lag compensation that registers hits based on where the target would be for the firer. The server does this by rewinding the state based on ping. If functioning perfectly then the twist that happens after, from Dimento's point of view, would not matter. Read more about it here: http://mwomercs.com/...rewind-phase-1/
As for the problem in the OP; meh. The discrepancy is pretty small. Only one Gauss appears to hit the cockpit. Even if you had hit it you'd not have killed him. I can think of multiple explanations as to why this happened but the truth is I don't give a fuсk.
As for the problem in the OP; meh. The discrepancy is pretty small. Only one Gauss appears to hit the cockpit. Even if you had hit it you'd not have killed him. I can think of multiple explanations as to why this happened but the truth is I don't give a fuсk.
For me, that small discrepancy probably adds up to hundreds of cockpit shots not counting towards Guillotine, probably the 3rd hardest achievement in the game.
I respect that you don't give a crap, and I do appreciate your candor on that.
#17
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- Shredder
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Posted 24 January 2016 - 07:26 PM
Odins Steed, on 24 January 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:
I can think of multiple explanations as to why this happened but the truth is I don't give a fuсk.
wow, breakdown in the filter? I'm used to seeing stars
#18
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- The Hammer
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Posted 24 January 2016 - 07:39 PM
Ironwithin, on 23 January 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:
True, well done on that count.
Not a problem confined to the jenner IIC, though.
Yep... Overheat shutdown hitbox desync bug has been around for a long time and not limited to Jenners.
#19
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Posted 24 January 2016 - 09:39 PM
Hit reg is not limited to just Jenners, but to just about every and any mech in the game. I've seen it happen on Firestarters, Arctic Cheetahs, Urbanmechs, ALASES (rarely admittedly, due to their slower speeds), Marauders... You name a mech, I've seen damage visually hit it, and do nothing.
#20
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Posted 25 January 2016 - 01:35 AM
Guys ... I have a little testsetup for yall .
It´s risky, but potentially very hilarious and educational as well .
Run around in a match, shoot the crappus out of enemies .
Try to get your heat up .
Now for the tricky part ^^.
Shoot at an enemy so he WILL shoot you while running against an object (ramps, buildings, mechs, whatever...needs to be solid though) while overheat-shutting down in front of said enemy .
Hear enemy curse in disbelief ?!?
Let´s see what this could bring forth
Haven´t tried out the new trees and how they interact with HSR besides blocking shots
For me personally I tend to call this phenomenon "hitbox-dislocation due to rebounding off a stationary object" or simply "HSR !" (inflect massive amounts of disgust right here please )
It´s risky, but potentially very hilarious and educational as well .
Run around in a match, shoot the crappus out of enemies .
Try to get your heat up .
Now for the tricky part ^^.
Shoot at an enemy so he WILL shoot you while running against an object (ramps, buildings, mechs, whatever...needs to be solid though) while overheat-shutting down in front of said enemy .
Hear enemy curse in disbelief ?!?
Let´s see what this could bring forth
Haven´t tried out the new trees and how they interact with HSR besides blocking shots
For me personally I tend to call this phenomenon "hitbox-dislocation due to rebounding off a stationary object" or simply "HSR !" (inflect massive amounts of disgust right here please
)
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