54 replies to this topic

[man du]

Khobai, on 25 January 2016 - 07:53 AM, said:

Sized hardpoints are a bad idea. Because sized hardpoints restrict large weapons. But large weapons ARNT the problem. People boating small weapons like lasers is the the problem. Restricting large weapons even more will just lead to even more boating of smaller weapons.

A better fix is just to nerf lasers for everyone.



Um so make it viable and relevant? A very simple way to make sensors relevant would be to reduce the damage of weapons by ~30% when firing at targets that arnt locked. If you have to get sensor locks to do full damage and lights are the best mechs at getting sensor locks suddenly scouting is a much more important role.

The role of scouting should also include way more than just finding enemy mechs and pressing R. Scouting should also include electronic/information warfare. Deceiving enemy sensors with fake radar contacts, cutting off enemy mechs from their sensor network, maybe even screwing with IFF so mechs no longer appear red or blue, just gray. Light mechs should be masters of controlling the flow of sensor information, both acquiring it, and deceiving/hindering the enemy from getting it.


They also need to redo the skill trees so each weight class has its own skill tree. That way they can emphasize the roles of each weight class and balance each weight class independently of the other weight classes.

And redo the module system by dividing modules into categories (weapon, defense, sensor, mobility, support, utility, universal, etc...) Youd only be able to equip modules that match their module slot, so like a mobility module could only go in a mobility module slot. Weight class and mech role would determine the combination of module slots each mech gets. For example, Assaults/Heavies would typically get more weapon/defense module slots while Mediums/Lights would get more mobility/sensor module slots. And Medium mechs would get the most universal slots since theyre supposed to be the most versatile weight class.


And the last part of role warfare is gamemodes. We need more open-ended gamemodes (i.e. not just skirmish or a variation of skirmish) that allow all four weight classes to excel at their specific roles. And also a gamemode that creates dependency on all weight classes so you cant win without a good mix of weight classes. Incorporating ticket-based respawn would also allow lights to be worth less than assaults because they would cost less tickets when you die (mechs would cost a number of tickets equal to their tonnage). So this nonsense of lights having to equal assaults in 1v1 combat can finally be put aside.

You and I will never see eye to eye on Assaults vs. Lights, but I like these ideas.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

GreyNovember, on 24 January 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

You upset my Urbanmech with your talk of "No Light mechs can carry heavy weapons".

The mech's got the tonnage for it. Who are you to say what my Urbie can and can't do?

The Little Urbie That Could.

[Felicitatem Parco]

To OP: I cannot take a post seriously when they say that light Mechs with PPCs and ERPPCs in their TRO loadouts should not be allowed to mount PPCs. I also cannot take a post seriously when they say the Hunchback4G and Yen Lo Wang should not be allowed to mount an AC/20.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 25 January 2016 - 02:49 PM.

[Red Shrike]

And I cannot take people seriously who insist on putting a large pulse laser on a Locust 1V.

[Beo Vulf]

For once a properly reasoned and factual post, not laced with whining, crying and bombastic statement. Bump!

[Khobai]

Quote

And I cannot take people seriously who insist on putting a large pulse laser on a Locust 1V.

WTF else are you gonna put on it? 4 machine guns? thats even worse. You act like the Locust has an alternative, it doesnt.

Light mechs carrying heavy weapons IS NOT causing balance problems. The strongest lights are the ones spamming 6+ lasers.

There is NOTHING wrong with lights carrying heavy weapons. In fact theres plenty of canon examples of lights carrying heavy weapons in battletech. Get over it.

Quote

UM-R60L Generally associated with the Capellan Confederation, who have modified a few of their UrbanMechs in this fashion, the -R60L is an upgrade to make the UrbanMech twice as deadly as the -R60 version. The -R60L sacrifices two tons of armor, allowing it to replace the Imperator-B Autocannon/10 with an Imperator-Zeta Autocannon/20

There's a canon variant of the 30-ton urbanmech that uses an AC/20. Hollander is a 35 ton mech thats basically just a Gauss Rifle with legs. Variants of the Firestarter use PPCs. Adder is a clan light that uses two CERPPCs. Why shouldnt it be allowed?

Edited by Khobai, 31 January 2016 - 10:09 AM.

[brroleg]

MWO has some serious problems with its mechlab system.

Look at mechlab system in Mechwarrior 4


Notice there is one huge ballistic hardpoint in right arm, and small hybrid(you can put there ballistic or energy weapons) hardpoint in each torso. What its mean, is that in Mechwarrior 4 you could not built mech different than its meant to be, you could not put huge gauss rifle in each torso, cause hardpoints there is not big enough, you could put it only in arm. In MWO you can put huge gauss rifles in this small torsos, cause there is no such thing in MWO as hardpoint size. And its a problem. Very big problem.

Edited by brroleg, 31 January 2016 - 10:40 AM.

[GRiPSViGiL]

The so called variety and possibility is an illusion.

[Shredhead]

brroleg, on 31 January 2016 - 10:37 AM, said:

MWO has some serious problems with its mechlab system.

Look at mechlab system in Mechwarrior 4


Notice there is one huge ballistic hardpoint in right arm, and small hybrid(you can put there ballistic or energy weapons) hardpoint in each torso. What its mean, is that in Mechwarrior 4 you could not built mech different than its meant to be, you could not put huge gauss rifle in each torso, cause hardpoints there is not big enough, you could put it only in arm. In MWO you can put huge gauss rifles in this small torsos, cause there is no such thing in MWO as hardpoint size. And its a problem. Very big problem.

There is no problem at all with small mechs sporting big weapons. You bringing up MW4 as an example for balance shows that you have a problem with accepting realities, buddy.

[Adiuvo]

Red Shrike, on 25 January 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

And I cannot take people seriously who insist on putting a large pulse laser on a Locust 1V.

Yeah it's stupidly OP I can't believe anybody can play this game with the LPL Locusts running around it makes it really hard to play and my Atlas can't even keep up with them why can't I kick the little light mechs and are at my knees it's just not fair and is completely unrealistic a light should never be able to 1v1 an assault mech PGI just doesn't understand Battletech.

heeelp meee

[Metus regem]

Red Shrike, on 25 January 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

And I cannot take people seriously who insist on putting a large pulse laser on a Locust 1V.

But the IS LPL is there slots and 7 tons....

[MischiefSC]

Adiuvo, on 31 January 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

Yeah it's stupidly OP I can't believe anybody can play this game with the LPL Locusts running around it makes it really hard to play and my Atlas can't even keep up with them why can't I kick the little light mechs and are at my knees it's just not fair and is completely unrealistic a light should never be able to 1v1 an assault mech PGI just doesn't understand Battletech.

heeelp meee

Have you considered that maybe assault pilots are just better than light pilots? It's only the terrible cheating game mechanics that let light pilots beat assaults at all, ever?

Of course if game mechanics were designed to ensure that lights always lost to assaults and as such everyone always played assaults they would have to put a game mechanic in to force people to play lights. So long as that person forced to play a light isn't the terribad in the assault who firmly believes that no matter how terrible they are that they should win against lights anyway. And there is no ******* way anyone making a recommendation that insanely, beef-headed stupid isn't so terrible at this game they occasionally miss shots because they were choking on their own tongue.

As frustrated as I get at PGI sometimes for some things there are days I am certain the absolute worst part of MWO is the players. I wonder if I never went to the forums and never ever pugged in CW how much more I would enjoy this game.

Edited by MischiefSC, 31 January 2016 - 12:57 PM.

[Adiuvo]

MischiefSC, on 31 January 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Of course if game mechanics were designed to ensure that lights always lost to assaults and as such everyone always played assaults they would have to put a game mechanic in to force people to play lights.

I know just the mechanic! You can do one of 2 things. You can either give make players rank up to an assault mech so that only the elite™ players who put the time in get to play one, or those who pay and help PGI make money. The other option is that you make lights absolutely terrible just like they are in Battletech™ but then you give players a lot of them! That way the assault player can feel like the MechGOD™™ he certainly is as he one shots all those weak little lights and screams 'FOR KERENSKY I HAVE CLICKED ON A MECH IN THE STORE AND THUS I AM SUPERIOR!"

But yeah, MWO has a lot of players who don't actually play computer games and have little idea of industry standards or learned lessons in game design. Maybe they're fine with a game that's permanently niche but if their ideas would have been taken from the beginning MWO really would have been DoA. Outside of the Korea, a grind-to-superiority FPS market just doesn't exist.

[MischiefSC]

Adiuvo, on 31 January 2016 - 01:11 PM, said:

I know just the mechanic! You can do one of 2 things. You can either give make players rank up to an assault mech so that only the elite™ players who put the time in get to play one, or those who pay and help PGI make money. The other option is that you make lights absolutely terrible just like they are in Battletech™ but then you give players a lot of them! That way the assault player can feel like the MechGOD™™ he certainly is as he one shots all those weak little lights and screams 'FOR KERENSKY I HAVE CLICKED ON A MECH IN THE STORE AND THUS I AM SUPERIOR!"

But yeah, MWO has a lot of players who don't actually play computer games and have little idea of industry standards or learned lessons in game design. Maybe they're fine with a game that's permanently niche but if their ideas would have been taken from the beginning MWO really would have been DoA. Outside of the Korea, a grind-to-superiority FPS market just doesn't exist.

We do love our P2W though. Let's be 100% honest - Star Citizen has raised 100 million dollars on the idea of selling an advantage while saying 'no no, this guys fleet of capital ships, bombers and military grade fighters represent no advantage over your space pickup truck just because he spent $10k and you spent $45!'

The only thing we love more than the opportunity to P2W is the opportunity to do so and pretend it's not. Look at all the 'Clans are supposed to be superior, that's why I paid so much for them' folks. The opportunity to P2W and have it 'Lore Certified, PGI Approved!' it was a license to print money, selling it to entitlement minded terribads.

Look, I'm terribad in lights in pug queue. I don't know why - like 2 years ago I could do lights fine. For whatever reason however I'm no just terrible in lights in pug queue. As in if I'm on your team in a light in the pug queue you should just consider me a disco and plan accordingly. I do fine in CW when I have a team I can play around but in pug queue? I'm just happy I can't accidentally headshot myself.

That's a me problem though. I'm playing them wrong and I need to change my approach and behavior when trying to pug in lights. I and every sane, well as sane as grown men playing stompy robots can be called sane, player knows that when you're unable to do something well but other people are doing it well the problem is YOU and that's what needs fixed. We just seem to have accumulated a lot of people who feel that if they're doing poorly and other people are doing well the problem is....

everyone else is cheating/doing it wrong/bad people. Take a look at the latest balance kerfluffle over IS laser ranges and the BJ/BLR-1S vs Clans crap. After the range is nerfed back I don't expect to see any measurable difference in my use or performance of the BLR-1S as a long range sniper - it's great for the job. The number of players for whom a 10% range difference on long range poking weapons is an actual game changer could all go eat at the same restaurant. The number of people who can actually exploit a 0.33 second burn time advantage on lasers into a 12-0 roll consistently could all sit at the same table. The difference in quirks for balance and their actual play among the 10s of thousands of players in MW:O is irrelevant.

It's the *perception* that someone got more ice cream that's the problem. Clan vs IS balance in CW is really good right now. Way better than it's ever been. Yet the Clans VOIDED players after the last balance.

That's the core problem. It's not the mechanics that PGI change (though those choices are generally.... not good) it's that the community is comprised largely of absolute ******* idiots. 'ZOMG! 10% MOAR LAZOR RANGES! IS LIKE FENGUR OF GAWD NAO!' All that really changed is someone who doesn't suck started using a build they hadn't in a way they had not considered and now they've seen it and want to replicate it. Battlemasters were good laser snipers before quirks existed - that just wasn't the best sniper option before quirks. Remove quirks completely and a BLR-whatever with a big engine, **** ton of DHS and some long range energy is going to be a faster, cooler Stalker with better XL hitboxes for only a small increase in exposure to peek.

So we see stuff change and we want it either better or nerfed, depending on if it's used against us or by us. When we suck at something we want everyone else made worse so we don't suck as much instead of trying to get better.

In the end that's part of what got me okay with a split CW queue. All those terribads who are pugging 4xLRM decks and refusing to push in CW? They won't change. Ever. The self-awareness and self-respect required to examine your mistakes and get better.... they don't have it. There is nothing you can do to make them not terrible at the game. Their response to failure is to try and find a way to drag everyone else down to that level to make it 'fair'.

So cut them out. Let them play in a private universe where the paint chips are food safe, make sure they have their helmets on and there's nothing sharp around and let them go play. They spend money and generate revenue and provide food for the quickplay queues. We can't force them into the deep end of the pool; they'll just drown and the lifeguard will have to close the pool.

Edited by MischiefSC, 31 January 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[GreenHell]

I would say that PGI is kinda on to something with the structure buff idea for IS. Clans were always the agressors, and IS were always defending. Makes sense that IS would be better at defense and clan better at offense. I don't need any weapon quirks at all... however the Clans do have an almost 250 year tech lead on the IS, so lore wise it does kinda make sense that they'd just be stronger overall. I don't think PGI will ever be able to strike a perfect balance at all, for the simple reason that it was designed unbalanced from the start. I think they should keep to the TT rules that make sense (omni rules vs battlemech rules for example). If they make changes, things like ghost heat kinda do have a precedent (I know blasphemy right? Look up the Binary Laser and tell me that this dumb thing isn't where they got it from).

TL:DR - In my mind, IS should be more defensive based while Clan are more offense based. Keep TT rules that make sense, but if you're gonna make changes remember that the game is inherently unbalanced.