354 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum X, on 24 January 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

Easier said than done really.





There are, but we're back to the old conversation that clan players used to try to use "IS mechs can just get in closer!".

Sounds easy, is not always that easy.

Gauss is still nerfed, tonnage & ghost heat limits boating of CLPLs, CERMLAS cap out at 600m.

So you're going to push through about 200 to 250m range worth of quirked IS ER LLAS range advantage, often on mechs with reduced burn quirks

Well its not perfect, but being smart about it can help. I'm not making it up, closing happens in this game.

I also didn't say they would win, but I could see them being a little closer.

Summon3r, on 24 January 2016 - 08:02 PM, said:

nothing more then this needs to be said about anything MWO.

10v12 isnt happening. Get over it

[Gyrok]

FupDup, on 24 January 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

It's a Gyrok thread that people are...actually taking seriously. Especially when it's a thread about faction balance. Never thought I'd see that in my lifetime.

At this rate, maybe Russ will finally get around to fixing Flamers...

People should be taking my threads more seriously more often.

A lot of people mock me...but the truth is there...you cannot deny that IS mechs are stronger right now. The only people who did were the blowhards who thought IS could never be OP.

EDIT: All of what I said before was leading to this. I knew if people did not pay attention to how close the mechs actually were, before the last nerf, that eventually IS would be overquirked and clans would be overnerfed. I think there are lots of issues with clans, but the most exasperating is that clans should be better at range, and they are not by a long shot.

Edited by Gyrok, 24 January 2016 - 08:37 PM.

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

10v12 isnt happening. Get over it

If I quit every time a small stumbling block like this happens, I'm not going to be where I am today.

Gyrok, on 24 January 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

A lot of people mock me...but the truth is there...

Edited by Mystere, 24 January 2016 - 08:40 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 24 January 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

People should be taking my threads more seriously more often.

A lot of people mock me...but the truth is there...you cannot deny that IS mechs are stronger right now. The only people who did were the blowhards who thought IS could never be OP.

There is stronger, and then there is "oh my gawsh I can't bear to fight them because they are so OP"

Besides, let's face it, you have been claiming IS OP since it was obvious that you were wrong. I doubt anyone will ever take you seriously.

[Summon3r]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

10v12 isnt happening. Get over it

lol ... i will stick by this for as long as we are on the path we are on, its just my opinion but mechwarrior should not be balanced on a mech to mech/ 1 to 1 basis EVER, UNLESS it was to be only clans or only IS mechs in the game.

[Aresye]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 07:42 PM, said:

I recognize that IS mechs are superior. I also understand how ER LL engagements are common in comp. I just think that those matches could have been closer if instead of trying to fight an uphill battle, they could have tried to close into ER ML range and poke from there. Maybe not though, it just seems like there are better weapons on the Clan side than cERLL.

As a side note, maybe its time for some cERLL buffs?

The problem there is now you have an entire 500m+ range window in which you have to maneuver while having no ability to return fire. You saw this on Drop 5, in which by the time the Clan team was in their optimal range, they were already down 2 assaults and the rest of them were cored.

Also, we don't need to buff the CERLL. I feel it needs a "slight" reduction in burn time, but outright buffing it just makes the powercreep worse. What NEEDS to be done is to either scale or outright remove the energy range quirks that boost the ISERLL to such ridiculous ranges. Mechs like the RVN-4X can reach out past 1800m with a sub-1s burn time simply shouldn't exist.

Khobai, on 24 January 2016 - 05:03 PM, said:

yeah but its not just the IS weapons that are uberquirked. its their internal structure too.

its such a terrible way to try and balance the game.

That's ultimately the problem. It's the combination of quirk consolidation (ex: Medium Laser Range quirk turning into Energy Range Quirk), structure buffs (theoretically more tonnage), agility quirks, heat sink changes, skill tree changes, Clan XL side torso loss nerfs, and adding it on top of a system that was already broken beforehand.

In an effort to bring the grand majority of IS mechs up to par with the Clan's top performers, they inadvertently buffed the large majority of already good IS mechs up to obscene levels.

Many of the IS ERLL quirked mechs are just as good up close as they are from 1600m away. Watch Drop 5 as I drop down from the spire in my 4 ERLL Quickdraw. I start getting focused by 2 stormcrows, but while each of them shut down at least once, I was able to continuously pound away at them with 2 groups of 2 ERLL.

The problem comes down the play style. You can't brawl very well in Clans against a brawling IS deck, because the IS has mechs super quirked for brawling, and Clans lack the agility (especially after ST loss). You can't poke mid-range in Clans because the IS has super quirked mid-range poke mechs like the BJ-3. You can't poke long-range in Clans because the IS has super quirked long-range mechs.

There is literally not a single type of play style that exists in which there isn't a group of IS mechs better quirked for the task.

Remember you're watching 2 different teams trying to make the Clan side work. It isn't so much that you're watching a bad game plan and/or bad teamwork. The Clan players just simply had no clue what to do. In the case of the team that switched to Clan halfway through, they already had 3 drops where they could clearly see what didn't work for us, but when it became their turn, they pretty much picked the same types of mechs, builds, and tactics.

The only reason they would try to repeat the same formula that didn't work for us is the same reason we picked that formula in the first place. It was our best option.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Well its not perfect, but being smart about it can help. I'm not making it up, closing happens in this game.

I'm not saying it doesn't.


But in situations where there will be closing on the enemy team, there will also be heavily quirked IS mechs that can put out pretty high sustained DPS that many clan builds simply can't match right now.

Specific IS mechs are very strong at ER range, very strong at mid-range, and very strong at short range.

[Ultimax]

Aresye, on 24 January 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

The only reason they would try to repeat the same formula that didn't work for us is the same reason we picked that formula in the first place. It was our best option.

Yep.

The pool of viable clan mechs is very small. Smaller than what's there on IS.


The pool of viable builds for those mechs is also very small.


There just aren't that many options in the toolbox for proper counters.

Part of that is the sum total of IS Buffs + Clan Nerfs and not just one or the other, its the combination.


Gauss & CERMLAS nerfs really hurt, this was a premier mid-ranged build.

Clan Laser vomit might have better alpha potential at a total range, but its not nearly as sustainable as the IS versions with the best quirks, the burn differences are a lot more noticeable now.



The IS structure buffs were needed. A lot of the quirks were needed, but we went from super specific to super generic and it has its own set of issues.

The Clan XL second nerf was a bit heavy handed in light of the IS structure buffs as well as the skill tree nerf and the addition of agility back to IS mechs through quirks.



On top of all of this we only continue to see blanket nerfs, and never any buffs for the mediocre or lower tier clan mechs.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 January 2016 - 10:23 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Aresye, on 24 January 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

The problem there is now you have an entire 500m+ range window in which you have to maneuver while having no ability to return fire. You saw this on Drop 5, in which by the time the Clan team was in their optimal range, they were already down 2 assaults and the rest of them were cored.

Also, we don't need to buff the CERLL. I feel it needs a "slight" reduction in burn time, but outright buffing it just makes the powercreep worse. What NEEDS to be done is to either scale or outright remove the energy range quirks that boost the ISERLL to such ridiculous ranges. Mechs like the RVN-4X can reach out past 1800m with a sub-1s burn time simply shouldn't exist.

That's ultimately the problem. It's the combination of quirk consolidation (ex: Medium Laser Range quirk turning into Energy Range Quirk), structure buffs (theoretically more tonnage), agility quirks, heat sink changes, skill tree changes, Clan XL side torso loss nerfs, and adding it on top of a system that was already broken beforehand.

So your saying that the Clans best chance to win is using their worst laser? Maybe on certain maps. Not on all.

Either way, I have already agreed that the top IS performers are outperforming, I just don't think the situation is as Dire as some others do.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2016 - 05:07 PM, said:

The God Tier Clams have competition now

I don't consider any of them god tier at this point. There's a lot of stuff at T1 across all different ranged brackets and there isn't a single clan mech build that is so strong it is the clear choice for any ranged bracket - not even the TBR.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

So your saying that the Clans best chance to win is using their worst laser? Maybe on certain maps. Not on all.

The problem is, without a few IS mechs to help, closing the distance becomes the worse scenario than trying to trade with cERLL and Gauss.

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 09:09 PM, said:

Either way, I have already agreed that the top IS performers are outperforming, I just don't think the situation is as Dire as some others do.

I wouldn't say it is dire, the gap between the top tiers aren't as big as it seems with those matches because it doesn't take much for that to snowball.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

The problem is, without a few IS mechs to help, closing the distance becomes the worse scenario than trying to trade with cERLL and Gauss.


I wouldn't say it is dire, the gap between the top tiers aren't as big as it seems with those matches because it doesn't take much for that to snowball.

The biggest issue there is that once it starts snowballing, when the other mechs are already trading better because quirks, it snowballs even faster.

I think removing the speed penalty on ST loss would help clans to a degree, at least they could still keep up with the group that way. As for the IS XL issue, well...frankly, the best IS mechs already use STD engines effectively, the only ones that do not are lights, and the best of those have great hitboxes for it anyway. I am still for IS getting the LFE, and I think it strikes a nice compromise that could be balanced out while leaving XL engines a place in specific mechs for specific scenarios, instead of outright obsoleting both STD and XL engines.

As it stands, IS can take specific range builds that maximize quirks for certain ranges that outperform clans. Aresye already alluded to as much, but the point is exacerbated by the fact that there is literally no situation where clans are better.

Edited by Gyrok, 24 January 2016 - 09:37 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 24 January 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

I don't consider any of them god tier at this point. There's a lot of stuff at T1 across all different ranged brackets and there isn't a single clan mech build that is so strong it is the clear choice for any ranged bracket - not even the TBR.

Not even the SRM24+A, 6SPL brawling Timby?

That's a lot of firepower in a short period of time (assuming closing to 200M is feasible).
I don't think an Onion can stand against that.


Long range, quirks play their part.

[Gyrok]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Not even the SRM24+A, 6SPL brawling Timby?

That's a lot of firepower in a short period of time (assuming closing to 200M is feasible).
I don't think an Onion can stand against that.


Long range, quirks play their part.

You get picked apart before you close to range in a lot of maps. Some give the cover to pull it off, especially in a deathball type group...however...the biggest issue is clearly the fact that you are outranged easily.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 24 January 2016 - 09:36 PM, said:

frankly, the best IS mechs already use STD engines effectively

I'm going to disagree here, the only good IS build that should use a standard engine, is assaults like the Stalker, Battlemaster, and Atlas.

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Not even the SRM24+A, 6SPL brawling Timby?

That's a lot of firepower in a short period of time (assuming closing to 200M is feasible).
I don't think an Onion can stand against that.

You're looking at it on a 75 ton vs. 75 ton basis.

In that ranged bracket, ultra short ranged brawl, that TBR is extremely strong but it does not dominate that category - it is not the "god tier" defacto choice, at all and outside that bracket (250m) by just a bit there is a list of brutal short ranged (but not ultra brawl) IS mechs that can deal with it.


The main flaw it has at that range are its easy to remove STs, which is now through the combination of negatives, basically as bad as being legged (not the raw speed, the total negatives that come with it).


Still a super strong build at that range, but the "god tier" hyperbole is past its expiration date.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 January 2016 - 09:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

I don't get why the solution is buff related. You're also looking at two different issues - balance geared towards comp tier 8v8 for a specific map and a specific set of expectations is a niche of a niche for this game. It highlights issues but the whole point is that we don't want identical weapon performance and mech performance.

Dial back the most egregious range perks and burn reduction perks. I'm not a fan of gearing quirks to specific weapons, as in MLs instead of LLs. It's already an issue with having to build an exact, specific IS mech to perform at the top level. Twisting that key tighter isn't a good solution.

Obviously the ideal is burn quirks with nuclear fire and actually balance the tech so we don't have this situation where specific mechs in specific situations with specific loadouts are OP at their niche but mediocre (at best) everywhere else. Given that it's not likely as that would involve something more than changing a couple XML variables (it's taken 2 years to get as close as we are now doing pretty much just that) it's not even something I'm willing to dream of right now.

If the map was random how does that affect the match? I watched it repeatedly and I can't help but think it felt like people still want to play Clans to a specific style that doesn't work for them. So suppose IS lasers had range comparable to Clan lasers, then how does that change things?

I hesitate to say the solution is to balance ranges. The last solution I would like to see is CERLLs balanced to IS ERLLs so the game reverts to the long range poking game. The current concept of IS mechs being based around the double-down, you build for brawl and you rock the brawl, you build for range and you rock the range but perform inferior than Clans outside that narrow window when you're in it plays out really well in CW. CW balance is drastically superior than it's ever been and has the widest range of tactics it's ever had. I would hate to lose that in trying to balance the long range poking game for competitive 8v8 play.

[meteorol]

Revorn, on 24 January 2016 - 04:34 PM, said:

I dont care. look the Failures in Taktics, Builds ect. its pathetic.

Lol.
You should teach guys like proton some proper builds and tactics. Im "sure" he could learn plenty of you.
Thanks for some good laughter in the morning.

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

I don't get why the solution is buff related. You're also looking at two different issues - balance geared towards comp tier 8v8 for a specific map and a specific set of expectations is a niche of a niche for this game. It highlights issues but the whole point is that we don't want identical weapon performance and mech performance.

In the case of the CERLLAS its buff related, because the weapon is bad.

Although if we were being accurate, it would be a reduction of nerfs it received ages ago and never had repealed even when the weapon slowly disappeared from regular play.


IS quirks aren't the total of the issue here, because it only takes 15% Range quirk (plus T5 module) to have an IS ER LLAS outrange a clan CERLLAS. That's a pretty moderate quirk.

1.5s duration has always been bad, less bad than the laughably ridiculous 2s laser light show nerf, but still too long.

If IS quirks stay as is, this should come down to 1.3s, and it should get its original range at Clan launch.


Alternatively I'd be happy if clan mechs could pay tonnage to improve their lasers with Targeting computers.

With possibly increases to range, CD & shorter burn times but needing to invest tonnage to do so (and not the "take a MK 1 and be done" issue we have now).

3x LLAS on a QKD has excellent range, higher CD, lower heat and shorter burn than your 2x CLPLs? No problem, you can take a MK 3 TC and get close to the same numbers - but you also now spent the same 15 tons to get that loadout.

Just a spitball idea atm.

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

If the map was random how does that affect the match?

Organized play for MWO is not going to see random map usage.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 24 January 2016 - 10:25 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I overheard the Clan weapons talking about who could trade with uberquirked IS ER LL. Clan ER PPC said he could REALLY help Gauss out if his shackles were removed and he behaved like a PPC instead of a bright blue disco ball tossed by a protocol droid.