354 replies to this topic

[Evan20k]

C-ERPPC to 15 damage, splashless please.

No, it won't break the game at this point. It's still extremely hot and unsustainable unlike the Gauss.

C-ERLL duration to 1.35 or something along those lines would also be awesome. At the very least, raise the CERLL ghost cap to 3.

Edited by Evan20k, 24 January 2016 - 10:19 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

I overheard the Clan weapons talking about who could trade with uberquirked IS ER LL. Clan ER PPC said he could REALLY help Gauss out if his shackles were removed and he behaved like a PPC instead of a bright blue disco ball tossed by a protocol droid.

It wouldn't just be ERPPC that would need to be unshackled at that point. Being able to trade reliably at 800+ is something not even Gauss can do well against ERLL. They would both have to be super fast and if the forums are any indication, there is still heavy resistance to velocity improvements. The only reasoning I have behind that is because Double Goose should be able to compete against ERLL if that were the case, like on a JM6-A, but no one does because ERLL are still easier/better to use at those ranges.

Evan20k, on 24 January 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

C-ERPPC to 15 damage, splashless please.

That still wouldn't help, you have to be able to hit to do that damage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 January 2016 - 10:24 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2016 - 10:22 PM, said:

It wouldn't just be ERPPC that would need to be unshackled at that point. Being able to trade reliably at 800+ is something not even Gauss can do well against ERLL. They would both have to be super fast and if the forums are any indication, there is still heavy resistance to velocity improvements.


That still wouldn't help, you have to be able to hit to do that damage.

Oh right we have to balance around the casual player yet somehow also be balanced at competition level. I forgot.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

Oh right we have to balance around the casual player yet somehow also be balanced at competition level. I forgot.

It shouldn't be a huge issue so long as they maintain low DPS (high heat, long cooldowns, etc).

[MischiefSC]

Ultimatum X, on 24 January 2016 - 10:10 PM, said:

In the case of the CERLLAS its buff related, because the weapon is bad.

Although if we were being accurate, it would be a reduction of nerfs it received ages ago and never had repealed even when the weapon slowly disappeared from regular play.


IS quirks aren't the total of the issue here, because it only takes 15% Range quirk to have an IS ER LLAS outrange a clan CERLLAS. That's a pretty moderate quirk.

1.5s duration has always been bad, less bad than the laughably ridiculous 2s laser light show nerf, but still too long.

If IS quirks stay as is, this should come down to 1.3s, and it should get its original range at Clan launch.


Alternatively I'd be happy if clan mechs could pay tonnage to improve their lasers with Targeting computers.

With possibly increases to range, CD & shorter burn times but needing to invest tonnage to do so (and not the "take a MK 1 and be done" issue we have now).

3x LLAS on a QKD has excellent range, higher CD, lower heat and shorter burn than your 2x CLPLs? No problem, you can take a MK 3 TC and get close to the same numbers - but you also now spent the same 15 tons to get that loadout.

Just a spitball idea atm.




Organized play for MWO is not going to see random map usage.

So make IS ERLLs exempt from any laser quirks the mech gets, dial CERLLs burn time down a tiny bit and heat down a tiny bit. The problem is that long range poking lets you effectively stop people from getting into their own fighting range. The solution is lengthen all burn times not shorten them so it becomes a long range poke environment. You want to hit someone beyond 1400m you need to waste ammo and use a ballistic.

The problem in the video is 400m of exposure at significantly shorter IS burn times. I'm a fan of removing all burn time quirks - as a balance mechanic you really, really screw with the performance metrics by tweaking that area.

CERLLs do 20% more damage, they need more than 20% longer burn time than IS ERLLs or they're better even in the given range. Making them more heat efficient than they are is good though.

The problem with PPCs is they have the benefits of ballistics but no ammo so they have little embeded cost in shooting at long range. Same reason lasers are silly viable as sniper weapons; hitscan and you can do it all day, hit or miss. If you dial laser range in towards mid-range and leave ballistics at long range you add a cost to the longest range trades that offset the advantage of hurting someone who can't hurt you back and you help bridge that cap between brawling/mid-range and long range builds.

As to non-random maps in comp play I get why but can you understand how balance for a match where everyone knows pretty much all the variables and balance when the variables are largely unknown are two very, very different animals?

[Mcgral18]

So, should I bump that balance thread of mine? Which removes quirks (as a starting point) and tries to balance the factions via Attribute changes instead of Quirking each every individual Spheroid robot?

Clam engine nerfs stay, but extend to the Sphere XL. That's a positive enough change, but the STD still needs a buff if a Clam Battlemech is ever going to even consider it over the Clam XL.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

Oh right we have to balance around the casual player yet somehow also be balanced at competition level. I forgot.

If competitive players can't trade reliably with PPCs against hitscan ERLLAS at 800m, then the casual playerbase has zero chance of making those trades.


Just step back a bit and think this through.


Best quirked version of TDR-9S was the only mech that could reliably trade against massed Clan CERLLAS utilizing PPCs and it took huge quirks to make that happen (and also the fact that you had 12 tanky mechs traveling at the same speed and running STD engines on maps like Boreal).

Now, we are at a point where the IS ERLLAS builds are even stronger than those Clan CERLLAS builds were.


Giving PPC type weapons 1500m/s isn't going to change all that much. 2000m/s + Gauss? Yeah that could do it.

Exceedingly unlikely to happen though.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

Clam engine nerfs stay, but extend to the Sphere XL. That's a positive enough change, but the STD still needs a buff if a Clam Battlemech is ever going to even consider it over the Clam XL.

Still stand by buffed torso internals and/or heat cap bonus for STD engines.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 24 January 2016 - 10:32 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

So, should I bump that balance thread of mine? Which removes quirks (as a starting point) and tries to balance the factions via Attribute changes instead of Quirking each every individual Spheroid robot?

Clam engine nerfs stay, but extend to the Sphere XL. That's a positive enough change, but the STD still needs a buff if a Clam Battlemech is ever going to even consider it over the Clam XL.

I would say yes if I thought it would make any difference whatsoever.





But it won't.

[nitra]

all i saw in these matches was clan mechs being played terribly .

a dire wolf being played in a position all by its self while the entire team hides behind a mountain really ??

that push over the hill on frozen was absolutely atrocious akin to some of the worst pug pushes . timby goes over by himself rest of team sit backs and watches him get slaughtered then half heartedly follow through only too get ambushed from the rear .

another map they stay out in the open and take incoming for almost 3 minutes

and to top it all off 4 mechs sit back and let a black jack finish off a clan assault absolutely insane...

[Mcgral18]

Ultimatum X, on 24 January 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

If competitive players can't trade reliably with PPCs against hitscan ERLLAS at 800m, then the casual playerbase has zero chance of making those trades.


Just step back a bit and think this through.


Best quirked version of TDR-9S was the only mech that could reliably trade against massed Clan CERLLAS utilizing PPCs and it took huge quirks to make that happen (and also the fact that you had 12 tanky mechs traveling at the same speed and running STD engines on maps like Boreal).

Now, we are at a point where the IS ERLLAS builds are even stronger than those Clan CERLLAS builds were.


Giving PPC type weapons 1500m/s isn't going to change all that much. 2000m/s + Gauss? Yeah that could do it.

Exceedingly unlikely to happen though.

In that case, it was because you could fire twice as many PPCs as you normally could (half heat), it was only a small (15%?) velocity boost.

Lower heat than the PPC meta ever had, but without the velocity.


Clam ERLL does have the Launch burn duration of 1.5s. Only change is 0.25 less damage, 1 point (?) more heat, and the range nerf. That was less than 200M (800something M down to the current 740M)

Unquirked, it still deals more damage/tick than the isERLL...but dem quirks.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum X, on 24 January 2016 - 10:31 PM, said:

If competitive players can't trade reliably with PPCs against hitscan ERLLAS at 800m, then the casual playerbase has zero chance of making those trades.


Just step back a bit and think this through.


Best quirked version of TDR-9S was the only mech that could reliably trade against massed Clan CERLLAS utilizing PPCs and it took huge quirks to make that happen (and also the fact that you had 12 tanky mechs traveling at the same speed and running STD engines on maps like Boreal).

Now, we are at a point where the IS ERLLAS builds are even stronger than those Clan CERLLAS builds were.


Giving PPC type weapons 1500m/s isn't going to change all that much. 2000m/s + Gauss? Yeah that could do it.

Exceedingly unlikely to happen though.

That isn't what I meant by balancing around the casual player.

I was referring to the fact that the forums go insane at the thought of 30-35 PPFLD, yet here we are saying that PPFLD can't trade reliably with ER LL, but most of the people who go insane at the thought of 30-35 PPFLD, don't complain about ER LL.

[MischiefSC]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2016 - 10:30 PM, said:

So, should I bump that balance thread of mine? Which removes quirks (as a starting point) and tries to balance the factions via Attribute changes instead of Quirking each every individual Spheroid robot?

Clam engine nerfs stay, but extend to the Sphere XL. That's a positive enough change, but the STD still needs a buff if a Clam Battlemech is ever going to even consider it over the Clam XL.

We need to evalue cost/risk balance for fights at all 3 ranges (long, mid, short). Long range poking rules because if you can accurately dice someone up before he closes to a range to hurt you, that's the ideal situation. If there's no real cost (no ammo) to doing so it is inherently superior.

Remove range quirks on ERLLs and keep laser ranges inside 1200-1400 or so. Ballistics out to 1800 (gauss, bump AC2 range again, maybe re-evaluate 3x range on ballistics with ballistic drop for everything in the 2x to 3x range) is more balanced because you've got an ammo cost to try and exploit it.

It's the fundamental issue with ERPPCs - benefits of ballistics without the ammo cost per shot so why not do it. The reality is that if you can't keep the enemy from closing you're largely boned anyway be that ERLLs or ERPPCs so a 'increase cooldown/heat/whatever' balance isn't really relevant. You kill the guy before he can close you eliminated its relevance and as this video shows accurate damage at significant range trumps any other factor.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 10:32 PM, said:

I would say yes if I thought it would make any difference whatsoever.





But it won't.

I know...that's why I stopped. Also to give PGI until March before whining excessively. Give them a chance to pick back up from the Holidays (and 5 patches).


Aside from Fall Damage. I'll make a Vindi VS BJ one next, should be more severe than the Cute Fox-Cheetah comparison due to the Vindi having Armour quirks, but the same doubled fall damage.

[Gas Guzzler]

I kind of like the thought of nerfing range quirks, but I feel like medium lasers just need a 10% range buff.

[Ultimax]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 10:35 PM, said:

I was referring to the fact that the forums go insane at the thought of 30-35 PPFLD, yet here we are saying that PPFLD can't trade reliably with ER LL, but most of the people who go insane at the thought of 30-35 PPFLD, don't complain about ER LL.

They don't complain about ER LL because seeing most players bring that in the solo queue is rare (except maybe now with Polar, but its not a good strat everywhere all the time).

And let's be brutally honest, almost everyone can use ERLLAS. Gauss+PPCs has a higher barrier to entry.

[Parnage Winters]

Don't bother trying to convince the forums of things. Show it to the people who actually are in a position to change things. You are unlikely to change anyones minds as most people who play the game realize these issues already and the rest don't care.

On the upside, it's a good time to be Inner Sphere.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum X, on 24 January 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

They don't complain about ER LL because seeing most players bring that in the solo queue is rare (except maybe now with Polar, but its not a good strat everywhere all the time).

And let's be brutally honest, almost everyone can use ERLLAS. Gauss+PPCs has a higher barrier to entry.

And there you just so eloquently explained my point.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 10:38 PM, said:

I kind of like the thought of nerfing range quirks, but I feel like medium lasers just need a 10% range buff.

That's where I'm saying just exempt ERLLs from quirks. The other IS lasers need them to be viable (except burn time quirks. Both up and down, even for the gimp quirks on the TW) but not ERLLs.

Just exempt ERLLs from quirks. This dials the ranged meta back enough to keep it from being defacto superior.

[cSand]

Sorbic, on 24 January 2016 - 05:01 PM, said:

"experiment" heh, you mean like predetermined "studies" by special interest groups or paid car reviews.

edit oops wrong thread for my sweet picture, hah

Edited by cSand, 24 January 2016 - 10:55 PM.