354 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

CLPLs are vastly superior to CERLLs anyway.

[Kristian Radoulov]

Can't believe people are still responding to Gyrok's troll theads. SMH

[Kuritaclan]

Kristian Radoulov, on 25 January 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Can't believe people are still responding to Gyrok's troll theads. SMH

You shoot yourself in the foot with your response in it.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 24 January 2016 - 09:45 PM, said:

I'm going to disagree here, the only good IS build that should use a standard engine, is assaults like the Stalker, Battlemaster, and Atlas.

The Thunderwub....?

Most of the WHM builds I ran over the weekend too...?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0cd56367450f24e

I mean, when you can fit 2xUAC5 + 6 MLs and run decent heat efficiency with a STD engine...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

The Thunderwub....?

The Thunderwub isn't really great...especially with the improvement of actual brawlers, and better mid-range mechs.

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

Most of the WHM builds I ran over the weekend too...?

We are talking about good builds...Quickdraws, Grasshoppers, and Black Knights should all be running XLs to be actually effective.

Domenoth, on 25 January 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

I don't think what I said invariably leads to what you are claiming it will. Yes, I said increase duration but I didn't say decrease DPS. Increasing duration would only be to increase face-time. Decreasing cooldown would leave DPS unchanged (if that's necessary).

Unless you are decreasing cooldown in turn, you are decreasing DPS, and increasing face time to the point that PPCs are remotely viable (which would have to be stupid long) doesn't make either useful in the face of Gauss.

Domenoth, on 25 January 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Gauss is "bad" right now because DPS is so low. That means It wouldn't be good at swatting down incoming brawlers for a different reason than PPCs (low DPS != slow projectile).

It would still be better than something that requires stupid amounts of facetime.

Domenoth, on 25 January 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

And no, I definitely don't want to bring PPCs back as long range meta. I want all long range weapons to be useful in different scenarios. I don't want anything able to do everything.

Domenoth said:

With face-time factored in, the PPC would out PPFLD long burning ER Large Lasers because the Large Lasers would have to expose themselves to do full damage.

Edited my post to reflect more what I meant, that you wanted PPCs back in the fold, not that you wanted a PPC only meta.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 January 2016 - 08:21 AM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

The Thunderwub isn't really great...especially with the improvement of actual brawlers, and better mid-range mechs.


We are talking about good builds...Quickdraws, Grasshoppers, and Black Knights should all be running XLs to be actually effective.

Like this BK?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c9491a113486ca8

This GHR...?

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=254&l=642c4dc3e876a75a883b2d20f7fbd6aa65630c59

Point being...

You can make GOOD builds on lots of IS mechs that have STD engines, good mobility, and sufficient cooling to be quite effective.

Of those you mentioned, you really only have to run XL on the QKD.

Edited by Gyrok, 25 January 2016 - 08:46 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

Like this BK?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c9491a113486ca8

This GHR...?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a43b920a220e9c1

Point being...

You can make GOOD builds on lots of IS mechs that have STD engines, good mobility, and sufficient cooling to be quite effective.

Of those you mentioned, you really only have to run XL on the QKD.

Those aren't good builds. The BK is too slow. The GHR has an LPL and 2 LL... lol no.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 January 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

Those aren't good builds. The BK is too slow. The GHR has an LPL and 2 LL... lol no.

Meh, dragged and dropped quickly, drop to a STD300 and keep 74 kph speed with 3 LPL + 3 ML.

The BK is too slow? 70 kph is too slow??

Now you are getting subjective....because, frankly...if you can all keep up with a Stalker...you are fast enough.

The problem with lots of IS decks is that people all want to move at different speeds. Clans were super effective in the beginning because deck speed was uniform (among other things).

It seems some of you have not learned that lesson, to this day.

Yes, some units need to be quicker, but as a whole, if you have a group moving 70-ish kph, you are plenty fast.

Edited by Gyrok, 25 January 2016 - 08:49 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 25 January 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

Because of heat, not velocity.

The problem however is exposure. That's my concern with ppcs. If it's accurate at over 500m and even reasonably heat efficient it beats lasers hands down.

I would be more inclined to leave speed about where it is, maybe another 100 ms but give it a heat reduction.

Or more to the point slash the speed buffs but add ppc heat reduction.

It's the ultimate peek and poke weapon if it's accurate enough. No ammo. Since it's not accurate plus it's too hot it's pretty useless right now. Especially with lpls at 7 heat.

However 35 pts of accurate ppfld (cuz we're talking about 35, be honest) at 500m+ with a fraction of a second exposure....

That's going to bork balance and PGI leaves **** broken for a year or so.

Even without gauss. 2x2 10, 40 pts from the Stalker. Peek, boink boink. We're derailing a good discussion about removing buffs from erlls because short burn times and long range are a balance issue. How could that not be?

I don't hate PPCs for their freedom or anything goofy like that. I do however know how and why we ended up in the laser meta. As much as some people hate it it's superior to the ppfld metas of days past. Yes, all means make PPC viable. Just help me understand how they will be viable without replacing lasers and what niche they will fill.

But you said if they were accurate at range they would automatically be the de facto choice. Now you are stepping back and saying that its because of heat. So if you are accurate at range but limited by heat (as they are) maybe they aren't the de facto choice after all? Also, the 6R's PPCs are 8.5 heat, 1650 m/s PPCs and they are still largely ignored...

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Meh, dragged and dropped quickly, drop to a STD300 and keep 74 kph speed with 3 LPL + 3 ML.

The BK is too slow? 70 kph is too slow??

Now you are getting subjective....because, frankly...if you can all keep up with a Stalker...you are fast enough.

The problem with lots of IS decks is that people all want to move at different speeds. Clans were super effective in the beginning because deck speed was uniform (among other things).

It seems some of you have not learned that lesson, to this day.

Yes, some units need to be quicker, but as a whole, if you have a group moving 70-ish kph, you are plenty fast.

I think 80 kph is more of the sweet spot for a heavy mech. Yeah, if all you had to do was keep up with a Stalker then 70 would be okay, but mobile heavies are better heavies. You aren't going to be following your assaults the entire time, you need to be able to respond to enemy team movements. Would that build be terrible? No, but it will be overall better with an XL 350.

[Gyrok]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 January 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

I think 80 kph is more of the sweet spot for a heavy mech. Yeah, if all you had to do was keep up with a Stalker then 70 would be okay, but mobile heavies are better heavies. You aren't going to be following your assaults the entire time, you need to be able to respond to enemy team movements. Would that build be terrible? No, but it will be overall better with an XL 350.

That depends on the mech, the hitboxes, and the purpose.

If you know you will be mostly engaging at 400m or less...then the STD is likely better because you can survive stronger return fire.

If you are going to be poking from further away and constantly repositioning, then the XL gives you the better mobility.

I was running the WHM in brawl decks all weekend, and I never regretted the STD engines.

The only build I had to have an XL was the BW with 4xAC5s...which was brutal with the stock XL280. I could probably cram something slightly bigger in it, but the 9 tons of ammo I am running right now seem to be about right for what it needs to be effective.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

If you know you will be mostly engaging at 400m or less...then the STD is likely better because you can survive stronger return fire.

Not really, because you can't twist and roll damage as well, thus making you easier to CT core. You're also losing the ability to re-position not to mention firepower which are very important in the current meta.

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

I was running the WHM in brawl decks all weekend, and I never regretted the STD engines.

That isnt really that great either, why take a Whammy when you can load up on AS7-S, Oxides, Splatapults, and GRF-3Ms?

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 January 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

Not really, because you can't twist and roll damage as well, thus making you easier to CT core. You're also losing the ability to re-position not to mention firepower which are very important in the current meta.


That isnt really that great either, why take a Whammy when you can load up on AS7-S, Oxides, Splatapults, and GRF-3Ms?

Because I had Whammys to max out on a brand new account for the dragoon unit we formed to play IS mechs in CW...

EDIT: Plus, there is a Whammy that runs SRM18 + 6 MLs with STD engine pretty nasty too.

EDIT2: BTW, I was AMAZED at how fast I was out of tier 5 and into tier 3 on a new account, I did not even bother looking until about half way through, around 12-13 matches into cadet bonus, I was already like 1/8th in t3. That seems a bit fast, not that I am complaining about not getting the underhive anymore. Just seems like it should take at least until the cadet bonus is over to hit tier 3 you know?

Edited by Gyrok, 25 January 2016 - 09:52 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

EDIT: Plus, there is a Whammy that runs SRM18 + 6 MLs with STD engine pretty nasty too.

That isn't really good though, I'd much rather take a Splatapult to a brawl, STD engines are costly even for heavies, maneuverability is often what keeps you alive more than a STD engine.

[Aresye]

Eboli, on 25 January 2016 - 01:33 AM, said:

How many threads were made over the last couple of years complaining about how OP clan mechs where such clan players (with most comp.players using such mechs) derided IS players as being wingers and learn to.play comments. Remember the bunny hopping TBRs...

Actually, most of the comp players said straight off the bat that Clans were way overpowered. Lords ended up doing a VTR-DS vs. TBR test within a week after the Clan's release, and concluded that the TBR was now the best mech in the game. GMan129 (who runs metamechs) has mentioned on several mech guides and created several tier lists showing the Clans were the top of nearly every category. MRBC admins implemented restrictions on Clan mechs, etc.

On the other hand, while the Clans were indeed more powerful, most of the complaints could be summed up as being a, "L2P," issue.

Quote

Now that clan vs IS is competitive in general game play now clan players are not happy and appear to be conducting biased studies.

These were not Clan players that did this study. These were competitive players, many of which went into this thinking Clans would still dominate. Hell, after my side lost the first 3 games the general consensus in the stream chat was that the other team was simply better than us. Even many folks on my own team (including myself) felt that the other team was definitely stacked higher.

No strikes were allowed. Only the center cap could be taken. It wasn't until we stomped the other team just as hard as they stomped us when they switched to Clan that we realized that something was definitely wrong.

Quote

How many of the IS builds ran XLs. QKD 4 x ERLLs run XLs and tend to die very quick when their left rightisTS get focussed ...

The majority of competitive IS mechs with XLs either have structure quirks, favorable hitboxes, or both. A good player in a competitive IS mech can do a lot to minimize the XL disadvantage, or in some cases, completely eliminate it from being a disadvantage entirely.

Quote

Sorry but all I see is a thread where biased clan comp players want their winning edge back.

Competitive players in general want balance more than any other group in this game, because how can they claim to be the better player/team otherwise? NBT (which has been trying to start up full-scale) derives its entire existence on good IS vs. Clan disparity. CW derives its entire existence on good IS vs. Clan disparity.

For the sake of league play (and personal ego), it's in the comp player's best interests to ensure things are balanced.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 January 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

But you said if they were accurate at range they would automatically be the de facto choice. Now you are stepping back and saying that its because of heat. So if you are accurate at range but limited by heat (as they are) maybe they aren't the de facto choice after all? Also, the 6R's PPCs are 8.5 heat, 1650 m/s PPCs and they are still largely ignored...



I think 80 kph is more of the sweet spot for a heavy mech. Yeah, if all you had to do was keep up with a Stalker then 70 would be okay, but mobile heavies are better heavies. You aren't going to be following your assaults the entire time, you need to be able to respond to enemy team movements. Would that build be terrible? No, but it will be overall better with an XL 350.

Problem with the Whammy is low mounts. If the Stalker could mount 8.5 heat PPCs at 1650 you think that wouldn't be common?

So if PPCs are accurate at range but limited by heat, why are you taking one instead of a 7 heat LPL or 8 heat ERLL? You're not, you're taking the laser.

So let me back up. I've had this argument in a couple of threads lately and it's asinine of me to assume you knew everything in them and were arguing the same point. Totally my bad.

So right now you've got LPLs at 7 tons, 7 heat at at the range most PPC combat takes place at (~500m) it's doing almost 10 pts over 2/3rd of a second and is hitscan. How do you make PPC compete with that and not be flat out superior? It's not a matter of velocity so much as heat for PPCs. At 1100m/s you're less than 1/2 a second to target. That's already enough time to guarantee a hit on someone shooting back with lasers; he's got to stay focused on you from the time you shoot to the time it hits him.

Make sense?

ERPPCs are heat AND velocity. ERLLs are largely balanced by stare time. If we're at 800m trading and I only have to expose myself for 0.3 or 0.5 seconds to get my ERPPC shots off you're only doing maybe 3 pts to me while I'm potentially tapping you for 35. If I can do so accurately and deliver my damage before you can twist away.... why would you take lasers?

So assuming you make PPC heat efficient enough to compete with LPLs at 400-500m and fast enough to compete with hitscan lasers at 800m.... why would you not take the weapon that lets you shoot and fade before the laser quits burning? We don't have a big issue with ERLLs and Gauss because a > 1 second burn time means you're face-tanking even with a Gauss loadout. If you eliminate that face-tank, you let me pop off PPFLD and move away before you can get a burn in with your lasers then why take the lasers?

So that's back to where we used to be. PPFLD designed to kill with minimal exposure at long range, everything else is effectively a brawling weapon based on the idea of rushing the PPC+ballistic guy and out-DPSing him while he is trying to kill you with precision shots before you close and eliminate his cover. At close range he'll have 2xAC5s or maybe Gauss, if you've got PPCs balanced by heat or long cooldown he'll probably have 2 AC5s.

So we know how that plays out already. I'm saying how do you fit PPCs in against LPLs and make them viable for the heat/tonnage but not inherently superior and how do you make heavier and hotter ERPPCs better than ERLLs without creating a situation where they are superior due to consistent accuracy without needing long exposure.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 25 January 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

Actually, most of the comp players said straight off the bat that Clans were way overpowered. Lords ended up doing a VTR-DS vs. TBR test within a week after the Clan's release, and concluded that the TBR was now the best mech in the game. GMan129 (who runs metamechs) has mentioned on several mech guides and created several tier lists showing the Clans were the top of nearly every category. MRBC admins implemented restrictions on Clan mechs, etc.

On the other hand, while the Clans were indeed more powerful, most of the complaints could be summed up as being a, "L2P," issue.


These were not Clan players that did this study. These were competitive players, many of which went into this thinking Clans would still dominate. Hell, after my side lost the first 3 games the general consensus in the stream chat was that the other team was simply better than us. Even many folks on my own team (including myself) felt that the other team was definitely stacked higher.

No strikes were allowed. Only the center cap could be taken. It wasn't until we stomped the other team just as hard as they stomped us when they switched to Clan that we realized that something was definitely wrong.


The majority of competitive IS mechs with XLs either have structure quirks, favorable hitboxes, or both. A good player in a competitive IS mech can do a lot to minimize the XL disadvantage, or in some cases, completely eliminate it from being a disadvantage entirely.


Competitive players in general want balance more than any other group in this game, because how can they claim to be the better player/team otherwise? NBT (which has been trying to start up full-scale) derives its entire existence on good IS vs. Clan disparity. CW derives its entire existence on good IS vs. Clan disparity.

For the sake of league play (and personal ego), it's in the comp player's best interests to ensure things are balanced.

I'm on board with everything you're saying, however the frustrating thing I get from watching the video is that the Clan teams just tried to do the same thing they'd done while playing IS. Long range poke game. On the push match that happened.... I've had the opportunity to get my **** pushed in by everyone in that match and I'm comfortable saying that when they came kicking in my teams door it was a way better push than that.

I've already stated earlier that I'd like to see ERLLs removed from the quirk lineup. The desire to see all quirks removed and replaced with an actual rebalance aside, outside of a situation where both sides knew exactly what map and situation was being setup how do you feel this would have played out? Had the map been random and you couldn't count on being able to play the whole match at 1km, what options would people have had?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 25 January 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

Problem with the Whammy is low mounts. If the Stalker could mount 8.5 heat PPCs at 1650 you think that wouldn't be common?

They aren't as low as people think, I can run 4 PPCs in the chest and they are almost hellbringer level. As for using the Stalker as an example of anything, very few mechs can abuse the high mounts like the Stalker so using that as a reason for not buffing PPCs is a bit silly don't you think? Not to mention the dynamic visual pass could easily change that on this mech.

MischiefSC, on 25 January 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

At 1100m/s you're less than 1/2 a second to target. That's already enough time to guarantee a hit on someone shooting back with lasers; he's got to stay focused on you from the time you shoot to the time it hits him.

Depends on how fast he is moving, any decent speed and it becomes hard to justify PPCs even if they were the same heat, provided you are using a range quirked mech, especially since LPLs are still useful outside of their optimal range whereas PPCs become less so. Ghost heat limit differences are also important to consider because 3 LPLs will be better than 2 PPCs unless something is drastically different.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 January 2016 - 11:12 AM.

[pbiggz]

Wow gyrok, this is totally impartial and not at all tilted in favour of IS winning to fit your battered clan narrative.


We all know the clans are in the ******* and we all know why. Do us the favour if actually asking for real balance instead of 10v12 and TT values on clan weapons, which we all know you want.

[Gyrok]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

That isn't really good though, I'd much rather take a Splatapult to a brawl, STD engines are costly even for heavies, maneuverability is often what keeps you alive more than a STD engine.

So let me get this straight.

By your own admission, an XL engine in an IS mech...regardless of circumstances...is more useful than a STD, regardless of the penalty for ST loss.

The IS XL engine has been pointed at for the reason for all these clan nerfs for a tremendous amount of time, and the position of you two is that the IS XL engine is no reason at all to change clans.

Correct?

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 25 January 2016 - 11:17 AM, said:

So let me get this straight.

By your own admission, an XL engine in an IS mech...regardless of circumstances...is more useful than a STD, regardless of the penalty for ST loss.

The IS XL engine has been pointed at for the reason for all these clan nerfs for a tremendous amount of time, and the position of you two is that the IS XL engine is no reason at all to change clans.

Correct?

Assuming that IS XL > STD for most gundams, this still means that the Clam XL > IS XL at the end of the day.