354 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

It was actually the 3-second Jenner, not 4-second. Regardless, it's the reason that external DHS are weaker than internal ones. The mech never "actually" existed, it was just a mythical creature that PGI claimed would ravage the game if X change was made. It was a means to an end. It's very similar to ManBearPig.



The 6 MG Spider was another mythical MWO creature that existed to prevent a gameplay stat change. In this case, Paul conjured it because he didn't want to buff MGs, because otherwise a Spider with 6 MGs would totally have a devastating effect on the back of an Atlas.

Edited by FupDup, 26 January 2016 - 05:26 PM.

[nitra]

Quote

The reason a 4-second Jenner is unacceptable is because it has the speed and agility to actually pull off running up behind an Atlas and core it with near impunity. A Panther does not. A Mist Lynx does not. Are you starting to see it, now? Regardless, with the Jenner IIC and all the missiles, we practically have said 4-second Jenner already. To say nothing about FS9-As with 8x SPL, etc.

We don't need the synthetics because they are literally no different than what we can see on paper. They will tell you the same things you can already compute with a pencil, some paper, all the weapon values, and all of the armor/structure values. You don't have to test that.

no im not seeing it because then we are arbitrarily arguing what we keep discussing whether we should have quirked ravens 4x or not . or is the bj3 really uber ? what does it compare to ? does it kill a mech faster than a ebj ? all i know is that on the battlefields i play in that bj can be a pain at times but so is the shadow cat and neither really seem to be all that op.

but for some reason we keep seeing comp teams raving about how strong these things are ... but in similar circumstances on the field in my experince that mech folds. (and im not playing comp)

so no i dont see it . i believe the comp team testing is about as phony as synthetic testing thus why we need both (synth and real world) so we can compare and say, you no what ... that raven really is destroying the game maybe pgi should fix that .


instead of the omg IS is PWNing clans mantra we are now hearing .

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 05:35 PM.

[Mystere]

Ultimatum X, on 26 January 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

Part of not being able to win that trade is because of the CERMLAS nerf, which is bigger than it looks because CERMLAS was one of 3 key weapons for all clan builds.

Gauss > nerfed
CERMLAS > nerfed
CLPL > Untouched, but has strong IS competition

They shouldn't have nerfed weapons, and clan XL, andclan DHS, andclan agility andleave locked equipment restrictions which have prevented build options since day one of clan launch.

Too many changes at once, which is exactly what I said leading up to and right after the most recent PTS.

Well, carpet bombing worked in Vietnam, right?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

so no i dont see it . i believe the comp team testing is about as phony as synthetic testing thus why we need both (synth and real world) so we can compare and say, you no what ... that raven really is destroying the game maybe pgi should fix that .

Ravens 1v1ing Ebjags isn't real word either

[Y E O N N E]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

no im not seeing it because then we are arbitrarily arguing what we keep discussing whether we should have quirked ravens 4x or not . or is the bj3 really uber ? what does it compare to ? does it kill a mech faster than a ebj ? all i know is that on the battlefields i play in that bj can be a pain at times but so is the shadow cat and neither really seem to be all that op.

but for some reason we keep seeing comp teams raving about how strong these things are ... but in similar circumstances on the field in my experince that mech folds. (and im not playing comp)

so no i dont see it . i believe the comp team testing is about as phony as synthetic testing thus why we need both (synth and real world) so we can compare and say, you no what ... that raven really is destroying the game maybe pgi should fix that .


instead of the omg IS is PWNing clans mantra we are now hearing .

Don't take this the wrong way, but you aren't seeing it on the field you play because the field you play in is uncoordinated, undisciplined and, often, unskilled. That's what solo queue is, and groups are only a little better.

Besides, you can't know how long it takes one 'Mech to kill another until you factor in torso twisting, player aim, etc. We can figure out how long it would take for a BJ-3 to kill an EBJ in a face-staring contest, and even if it actually can, because we have the DPS numbers for each and we have all of the hit-point numbers. We can't know how well a 'Mech spreads and shields and pokes under player duress.

Mystere, on 26 January 2016 - 05:31 PM, said:

Well, carpet bombing worked in Vietnam, right?

Actually, it did. It forced the NVA to the negotiating table because it was so effective and the US government, which just wanted out, brokered a cease-fire to do just that. The NVA then used the reduced bombings to rebuild and go back on the offensive.

Ignoring that the USA should have supported the North since the North asked the USA for help, the South was a cesspit of corruption, and the French didn't even join NATO at that time like they said they would, the battlefield was thoroughly lopsided in the USA's favor. They were already on their way out when the North set Tet in motion.

A much better example for you to have used would have been WWII, where post-war studies have shown that the mass bombings were far less effective than was thought during their execution.

[nitra]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Ravens 1v1ing Ebjags isn't real word either

just using it as an example .

because as it really stands we dont have a lot of clan mechs to compare to is as 1 to 1 ... and i think its more akin to the fact we need more clan mechs rather than IS is actually overpowered.

[Mystere]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

Actually, it did. It forced the NVA to the negotiating table because it was so effective and the US government, which just wanted out, brokered a cease-fire to do just that. The NVA then used the reduced bombings to rebuild and go back on the offensive.

Lol! Nixon tried to pass off the bombings as successful:

The US claimed that the operation had succeeded in forcing North Vietnam's Politburo to return to negotiating, with the Paris Peace Accords signed shortly after the operation. Also, sources indicated that when South Vietnam's President Nguyen Van Thieu objected to the terms, Nixon threatened that he might follow the footsteps of Ngo Dinh Diem (implying that Thieu might also find himself deposed by a military coup).[102] Also, while the bombing did severe infrastructure damage in Northern Vietnam, it did not break the stalemate in the South, nor did it halt the flow of supplies down the Ho Chi Minh trail.

Nixon just desperately wanted out. The NV were very much willing to oblige.

And Westerners really have to understand that Easterners think on the long term.

Edited by Mystere, 26 January 2016 - 08:07 PM.

[TheSilken]

Well my work seems to have become popular again. Good to see

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

Don't take this the wrong way, but you aren't seeing it on the field you play because the field you play in is uncoordinated, undisciplined and, often, unskilled. That's what solo queue is, and groups are only a little better.

Besides, you can't know how long it takes one 'Mech to kill another until you factor in torso twisting, player aim, etc. We can figure out how long it would take for a BJ-3 to kill an EBJ in a face-staring contest, and even if it actually can, because we have the DPS numbers for each and we have all of the hit-point numbers. We can't know how well a 'Mech spreads and shields and pokes under player duress.

I dont know , i believe battles are battles when when taken in parts , sure you have your diciplined team working together but they are still going to try and eliminate the target ... just as the solo players is going to try and eliminate the target . (or thats how it supposed to be )

in the solo que the bj fails a majority of the time. when it goes out of position and takes on 4 mechs

in this comp demonstration the bj successfully takes on 4 mechs repeatedly and wins.



to me thats hinky and either a fluke or we need better testing . because sure the two player bases are separate and distinct but giving the majority of times i have seen similar scenarios and also playing those scenarios my self the bj is forced to retreat due to incoming fire and the amount of damage taken.

again the disparity between the two scenarios is so wide thus why i say there needs to be a base line of some type to understand whether that bj is really over powered or is it circumstantial ? and how does it effect the game compared to other mechs . at this moment in time we cant answer that .

[Aresye]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

or is the bj3 really uber ? what does it compare to ? does it kill a mech faster than a ebj ?

From a tonnage vs. effectiveness standpoint in regards to the typical mid-long range laser vomit meta, the BJ-3 is hands down, the best mech in the game. It takes a long time to heat up, has very good laser range and cooldown quirks, the doubled internal structure quirks every BJ got, jump jets, and a small profile. In terms of damage output, a BJ-3 running 3 LPL does more damage per 0.1s of on-target laser fire than an EBJ with 2 CLPL + 4 CERML.

So yes, the BJ-3 is really uber. It easily compares to the 10t heavier SCR when it comes to tanking ability and laser vomit effectiveness, and given its higher dmg/0.1s and cooldown quirks, will definitely make more effective trades than the EBJ.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 26 January 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Ravens 1v1ing Ebjags isn't real word either

Oh but it most certainly is...
*Note: This wasn't a very serious test, so it's not very controlled.*

Edited by Aresye, 26 January 2016 - 06:22 PM.

[Aresye]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

in the solo que the bj fails a majority of the time. when it goes out of position and takes on 4 mechs

in this comp demonstration the bj successfully takes on 4 mechs repeatedly and wins.

to me thats hinky and either a fluke or we need better testing . because sure the two player bases are separate and distinct but giving the majority of times i have seen similar scenarios and also playing those scenarios my self the bj is forced to retreat due to incoming fire and the amount of damage taken.

Maybe because in the solo queue, the player behind the BJ LIKELY isn't a good player?

Here's how many mechs a BJ-3 can take on, tank, crit, and/or kill, against an organized group of solid players from KCom:

[nitra]

now thats a impressive video... and the stuff we need to be seeing

[Y E O N N E]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 06:08 PM, said:

I dont know , i believe battles are battles when when taken in parts , sure you have your diciplined team working together but they are still going to try and eliminate the target ... just as the solo players is going to try and eliminate the target . (or thats how it supposed to be )

in the solo que the bj fails a majority of the time. when it goes out of position and takes on 4 mechs

in this comp demonstration the bj successfully takes on 4 mechs repeatedly and wins.



to me thats hinky and either a fluke or we need better testing . because sure the two player bases are separate and distinct but giving the majority of times i have seen similar scenarios and also playing those scenarios my self the bj is forced to retreat due to incoming fire and the amount of damage taken.

again the disparity between the two scenarios is so wide thus why i say there needs to be a base line of some type to understand whether that bj is really over powered or is it circumstantial ? and how does it effect the game compared to other mechs . at this moment in time we cant answer that .

In solo, the BJ does not fail a majority of the time. I really, really hate to bring it up to tiers, but you are Tier 3. From experience on my alt account, which is also sitting in T3 at the moment, the play is so bad that I can consistently pull 500 damage in a trial Spider 5K, whose only weapons are an ERLL and four MGs without even using it as a poke 'Mech. I am literally brawling with this Spider. That would be complete suicide at a competitive level. That's already suicide at T2, or at the very least extremely unwise.

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

now thats a impressive video... and the stuff we need to be seeing

That's exactly what they were testing in the OP, but against players who are good and not a mixed bag of randoms with varying capabilities. See the torso twisting? The firing from cover? The running away? That's what Jabilac wants to leave out.

[nitra]

Aresye, on 26 January 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

From a tonnage vs. effectiveness standpoint in regards to the typical mid-long range laser vomit meta, the BJ-3 is hands down, the best mech in the game. It takes a long time to heat up, has very good laser range and cooldown quirks, the doubled internal structure quirks every BJ got, jump jets, and a small profile. In terms of damage output, a BJ-3 running 3 LPL does more damage per 0.1s of on-target laser fire than an EBJ with 2 CLPL + 4 CERML.

So yes, the BJ-3 is really uber. It easily compares to the 10t heavier SCR when it comes to tanking ability and laser vomit effectiveness, and given its higher dmg/0.1s and cooldown quirks, will definitely make more effective trades than the EBJ.


Oh but it most certainly is...
*Note: This wasn't a very serious test, so it's not very controlled.*

and this is the kind of synthetics we need to establish that base line..

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 06:28 PM.

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

In solo, the BJ does not fail a majority of the time. I really, really hate to bring it up to tiers, but you are Tier 3. From experience on my alt account, which is also sitting in T3 at the moment, the play is so bad that I can consistently pull 500 damage in a trial Spider 5K, whose only weapons are an ERLL and four MGs without even using it as a poke 'Mech. I am literally brawling with this Spider. That would be complete suicide at a competitive level. That's already suicide at T2, or at the very least extremely unwise.



That's exactly what they were testing in the OP, but against players who are good and not a mixed bag of randoms with varying capabilities. See the torso twisting? The firing from cover? The running away? That's what Jabilac wants to leave out.

and that video shows the clan team actively trying to take out that bj but regardless those vids are a lot more convincing than the op.

[Y E O N N E]

nitra, on 26 January 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:

and that video shows the clan team actively trying to take out that bj but regardless those vids are a lot more convincing than the op.

You think the Clan players weren't actively trying to take out the IS 'Mechs in the OP's videos? Really?

[nitra]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

You think the Clan players weren't actively trying to take out the IS 'Mechs in the OP's videos? Really?

not like the one Aresye posted no (in relation to bj) , it is quite apparent ....

Edited by nitra, 26 January 2016 - 06:50 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Difference being Aresye was outnumbered 4 to 1 in that video...and it doesn't look like he was playing in a coordinated drop but I could be wrong on that count.

[MischiefSC]

The BJ has a stellar skill cap though. What makes the BJ3 lpl build a beast is that you can drop 33pts on someone and pop back in to cover while they only take 1/3rd of the burn almost all their opponents put out.

You've got to be precise and consistent as **** to make it work regularly enough to shine like that.

If you can however it's like a return to the gauss+2ppc 2kps meta. Almost 35pts of near ppfld with precision and only exposed for 0.5 seconds or so.

It's not OP like pre-nerf TBR was op. You could just show up in a TBR and be assured of wrecking face. The BJ 3 just has the right confluence of quirks to let someone with the right skills and good positioning punch way outside its weight.

So outside comp play the BJ 3 is a solid performer. Us common peasants can stick it in our deck for a solid 500 damage even in a hard match and it's a brilliant finisher for your 2nd or 3rd wave to mop up chewed mechs. At 45 tons you're a fool for not having one. Someone who can really work the Mohammad Ali vibe with it can just destroy anyone stupid enough to try and trade with it.

[Kuritaclan]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 January 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

You think the Clan players weren't actively trying to take out the IS 'Mechs in the OP's videos? Really?

Well most time I see a BJ this days, I favor to look for a weaker target first. Since if you don't have the force to crack open this mofos, like seen with the HBR it is usless to try to kill it. It's just a waste of heat into somthing that mostlikely survives, while you could eliminate with the same power a threat.

MischiefSC, on 26 January 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

So outside comp play the BJ 3 is a solid performer.

Nicly down played for something that punches right above of his weight class. For me thats not solid perfoming, that is outstanding performing. - But non or less, this is a know issue, so not worth debating.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 26 January 2016 - 07:05 PM.