354 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 28 January 2016 - 08:51 PM, said:

I'm saying turn the BJ into a IIC and the Scat into a pure IS mech to show how broken actual balance without quirks is. How do you think a BJ with IIC tech vs a Scat with IS tech would turn out, no quirks of any sort?

The ideal goal however should be that the best mechs on both IS and Clan have no quirks at all

Look, I've never disagreed with the part about tech balance, what I HAVE disagreed with is that the BJ (outside the 1X) would be just fine with Clan tech and no quirks.

I also disagree that weapon quirks should only be restricted to the worst mechs, and are ok for flavor.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 January 2016 - 09:25 PM.

[Kuritaclan]

Mcgral18, on 28 January 2016 - 10:11 AM, said:

FupDup, on 28 January 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

Mcgral18, on 28 January 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

FupDup, on 28 January 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

Question: How much bonus structure would it take to make the Spider 5V viable if those were the only quirks allowed?

I suspect that the values would be in excess of 100%...it would put the new infamous 45-ton medium to shame...

2X Armour would be a start.

A start, but nowhere near the finish...

I mean, it COULD be made into the best Spider with minimal effort...

Spoiler

LegoMechs™

2x armor. Skip a 30t Mech and make it a 65t Mech with 150kph. Well i would guess this would take a long time to take down - even with "only" one hardpoint this would be a hard nut to crack.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 January 2016 - 09:24 PM, said:

Look, I've never disagreed with the part about tech balance, what I HAVE disagreed with is that the BJ (outside the 1X) would be just fine with Clan tech and no quirks.

I also disagree that weapon quirks should only be restricted to the worst mechs, and are ok for flavor.

My point on the BJ is just this - compared to the others in its class it's actually pretty good, if all tech was balanced. It certainly doesn't need the best quirks on any medium mech in the game.

The problem with weapon quirks becomes exactly what we have now. The quirks drive 1 or at best 2 builds and more to the point whatever the best quirked variant is becomes the only variant of that chassis that's any good.

I would argue that weapon quirks don't 'add flavor'. They give a steep discount to one particular flavor.

Edited by MischiefSC, 29 January 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 29 January 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

My point on the BJ is just this - compared to the others in its class it's actually pretty good, if all tech was balanced. It certainly doesn't need the best quirks on any medium mech in the game.

I never said it needed the best quirks anywhere, I just said it might still need quirks after that (and the small kind).

MischiefSC, on 29 January 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

The problem with weapon quirks becomes exactly what we have now. The quirks drive 1 or at best 2 builds and more to the point whatever the best quirked variant is becomes the only variant of that chassis that's any good.
I would argue that weapon quirks don't 'add flavor'. They give a steep discount to one particular flavor.

If they are only general weapon quirks (duration/velocity quirks excluded), then the mech probably already prefers a certain build anyway. My question is that whether pushing mechs towards a limited selection of build honestly a problem? I know people love customization, but we have 300+ variants in this game, and there are only so things a mech can do without being shadowed by something else, so shouldn't that be the goal?

[Ultimax]

MischiefSC, on 29 January 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

My point on the BJ is just this - compared to the others in its class it's actually pretty good, if all tech was balanced. It certainly doesn't need the best quirks on any medium mech in the game.

The problem with weapon quirks becomes exactly what we have now. The quirks drive 1 or at best 2 builds and more to the point whatever the best quirked variant is becomes the only variant of that chassis that's any good.

I would argue that weapon quirks don't 'add flavor'. They give a steep discount to one particular flavor.

By best quirks in the game you mean best structure quirks.

The energy quirks are pretty much in line with most other energy focused mechs like heavies, keeping in mind some BJs are limited to a sub-optimal 235 engine cap.

If the Clan XL nerf was rolled back, and stormcrow negative quirks removed, and agility added back then noone would be complaining about black jacks.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 January 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 29 January 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

If the Clan XL nerf was rolled back, and stormcrow negative quirks removed, and agility added back then noone would be complaining about black jacks.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that, the biggest nerf still is the ERML nerf as far as the Stormcrow is concerned. The duration nerfs to the heavy energy arms are as well since the duration is so short on the BJ. The Clan XL and agility only help it brawl.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 January 2016 - 12:25 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 January 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

I never said it needed the best quirks anywhere, I just said it might still need quirks after that (and the small kind).


If they are only general weapon quirks (duration/velocity quirks excluded), then the mech probably already prefers a certain build anyway. My question is that whether pushing mechs towards a limited selection of build honestly a problem? I know people love customization, but we have 300+ variants in this game, and there are only so things a mech can do without being shadowed by something else, so shouldn't that be the goal?

I'm willing to go with that. My big concern though is that weapon quirks exist currently because weapons are not actually balanced. So I've got a Raven 4X with 2ERLLs that out range the games draw distance and fire like medium lasers.

Huh. I wonder what loadout I should put on it?!?

Or the BLR 1S. When your only real question is 'do I go with the ERLLs or the LPLs' when designing a mech you've got a quirk issue.

The BLR doesn't need any weapon quirks. I'd rather the hardpoint-deprived ones gets structure quirks.

Maybe smaller mechs in their weight class (20/25 tons, 40/45 tons, 60 and 80 tons respectively) need small weapon quirks to let them compete or at least find a niche in their categories. I'm game with that.

There's always going to be strong builds. Currently though take the TBR. You've got several strong builds for it, in many ways because of the minimal (negative) quirks that it has. If the thing had energy quirks you'd be a tool to take ballistics.

I get that the TBR is a kooky example and I'm not trying to debate the use of ballistics on a TBR but do you get what I mean? A ballistic BJ shouldn't be a stupid idea because it's so good at energy. Admittedly it may be a stupid idea because energy is better than ballistics overall but that's a byproduct of game balance not quirks.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 29 January 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

I get that the TBR is a kooky example and I'm not trying to debate the use of ballistics on a TBR but do you get what I mean?

Omnimechs are a bit of a special case simply because of the way they function and because of how many omnipods it has, a better question would be does it have more effective/optimized builds than it does variants, and I'd almost say it would be a close call. It has a a lot of versions of pretty much the same build, but meh.

MischiefSC, on 29 January 2016 - 12:36 PM, said:

A ballistic BJ shouldn't be a stupid idea because it's so good at energy.

Clan tech would allow it to run a Clan goose, 4 ERML, 1 JJ and a cXL225 with ES/FF. The main problem is just how bad non-lasers are now.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 January 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Aresye]

MischiefSC, on 28 January 2016 - 06:27 PM, said:

So 100% flip of chassis and no mech in the game has any quirks at all.

So a Scat, pick which variant, no omnipods or the like with 100% IS mechlab. No clan tech at all. So the 3 hardpoints you probably get, IS endo/ff, if you want an XL it's an IS one. IS DHS, etc.

Then take whichever BJ you think is worse and give it CXL, cermls, clpls, cspls, clans endo/dhs. Like it was a IIC mech.

Again. No mech has any quirks.

Then tell me how you're making a better Scat or Fridge.

Alright, I'll bite:
- Remove MASC from SCat.
- Keep 2 JJ.
- Maximize free tonnage with FF/Endo, and IS XL.
- Frontload all CT, RT, and LT armor.
- Add 3 IS LPL.
- Use remaining tonnage and crits for double heat sinks.

Even with no quirks and an IS XL, the more lenient ghost heat penalty for IS large class lasers, combined with the short IS LPL laser duration of 0.67s, would make this particular variant of the SCat more effective than current options.

*Edit*
I missed where you said no omnipods, so I take it back. Without being able to have a whopping full 3 energy hardpoints, there really isn't anything you can do with the SCat.

To be fair on the BJ's part however, we're talking about the removal of all mobility and structure quirks, and implementing the XL heat and speed penalty for side torso loss. All these on top of longer face time required for the longer duration of Clan lasers.

I think in this "hypothetical" scenario, the IS version of the BJ would still win against the Clan BJ, quite handily.

Edited by Aresye, 29 January 2016 - 01:09 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

A Clan-BJ-1X with 4x C-MPL and 4x C-ERSL would be pretty brutal even without the structure quirks.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 29 January 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

Alright, I'll bite:
- Remove MASC from SCat.
- Keep 2 JJ.
- Maximize free tonnage with FF/Endo, and IS XL.
- Frontload all CT, RT, and LT armor.
- Add 3 IS LPL.
- Use remaining tonnage and crits for double heat sinks.

Even with no quirks and an IS XL, the more lenient ghost heat penalty for IS large class lasers, combined with the short IS LPL laser duration of 0.67s, would make this particular variant of the SCat more effective than current options.

*Edit*
I missed where you said no omnipods, so I take it back. Without being able to have a whopping full 3 energy hardpoints, there really isn't anything you can do with the SCat.

To be fair on the BJ's part however, we're talking about the removal of all mobility and structure quirks, and implementing the XL heat and speed penalty for side torso loss. All these on top of longer face time required for the longer duration of Clan lasers.

I think in this "hypothetical" scenario, the IS version of the BJ would still win against the Clan BJ, quite handily.

I don't know. Without quirks for ANYONE the Clan laser range advantage is suddenly a big deal again. That BJ with 3 CLPLs is at optimal range right about when the ISLPLs are doing about 2 pts each. As the recent IS vs Clan engagement that started all this shows the ability to double the range of the other team before they can bring a higher alpha/DPS to do the work isn't that viable.

WIthout heat and range quirks the IS lasers don't really match up.

Sure if you can get people to trade at 270m - 300m the higher DPS and wacky short burn time is great but given that Clans are almost universally faster that's a tough proposition.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 January 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

Omnimechs are a bit of a special case simply because of the way they function and because of how many omnipods it has, a better question would be does it have more effective/optimized builds than it does variants, and I'd almost say it would be a close call. It has a a lot of versions of pretty much the same build, but meh.


Clan tech would allow it to run a Clan goose, 4 ERML, 1 JJ and a cXL225 with ES/FF. The main problem is just how bad non-lasers are now.

Also better design for peeking.

If nobody has any quirks you wouldn't be tempted to boat CLPLs? Yeah, it's hot but you could run 3CLPLs and trade effectively with ISERLLs, which would all be at the 1.25 burn time compared to your 1.12. Again, no quirks so you're going to out-trade an ISERLL at its optimal range on damage per tic.

2 LPLs, 2-4CERMLs?

Anyway. Balance the tech. When you can flip tech on mechs and have it be different but comparable then revisit quirks.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 January 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

I wouldn't be so quick to say that, the biggest nerf still is the ERML nerf as far as the Stormcrow is concerned. The duration nerfs to the heavy energy arms are as well since the duration is so short on the BJ. The Clan XL and agility only help it brawl.

Negative quirks includes the duration nerfs, that was the main point of my comment.

Range for CERMLAS or CMPLs is still better than the 6x MLAS+2x MPL BJ, the 3x LPL BJ is kind of unique but that's OK.

Remove SCR negative quirks, roll back CXL nerfs, give it the 2nd weapon module nearly every mech in the game has, give it back its agility.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 29 January 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Negative quirks includes the duration nerfs, that was the main point of my comment.

Range for CERMLAS or CMPLs is still better than the 6x MLAS+2x MPL BJ, the 3x LPL BJ is kind of unique but that's OK.

Remove SCR negative quirks, roll back CXL nerfs, give it the 2nd weapon module nearly every mech in the game has, give it back its agility.

The ERML boat SCrow compares better against the 3 LPL BJ-3 which is superior in that role because it can poke better than the poor SCrow. Now whether undoing those neg quirks for duration/cooldown would put a dent on that, idk, the SCrow has never been the strongest poker since the rise of the WVR-6K and recently the BJ-3. The SCrow just always had brutal firepower which is just not as potent as it used to be thanks to the structure quirks running around and the LPL becoming the weapon of choice which limits exposure on the IS side.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 January 2016 - 02:24 PM.

[Ultimax]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 January 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

The ERML boat SCrow compares better against the 3 LPL BJ-3 which is superior in that role because it can poke better than the poor SCrow.

I like the 2x CLPL + 2 to 3 CERMLAS SCR in that match up instead.


If the changes I suggested above came true, that build would be viable vs. the BJ.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 29 January 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

I like the 2x CLPL + 2 to 3 CERMLAS SCR in that match up instead.


If the changes I suggested above came true, that build would be viable vs. the BJ.

The biggest issue with the SCR (aside from the typical current clan plight), is the highest mounted hardpoints still leave you exposing 50% of the mech because the torsos protrude so high above the cockpit and the mounts for the energy weapons themselves.

You can play it wisely and hill hump adequately, however, if the SCat got 5 energy, or we saw something like the huntsman come around...then the SCR would still be a good mech, just not the best hill humper. As it stands, it is one of the better clan hill humpers because so many have poor hardpoint locations relative to the SCR.

So many IS mechs have hardpoints in ideal locations (partly because so many IS mechs anyway...) that it makes trading favorably pretty difficult on equal terms. When IS mechs have the advantage in weaponry *and* structure, it becomes an ill favored comparison pretty handily.