51 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

...because there will always be something which is the most optimal for the environment we are in just like having a fair skin is OP in the colder climate. Several things can alleviate "the problem" though, such as:

• Hard rock-paper-scissors balancing, for example long-range-direct-fire always beats brawling always beats indirect-fire (LRM etc.) always beats long-range-direct-fire and so on. Each subcategory will have its own meta though, but at least there are more varied builds overall. This could make the game feeling less of a sim and more gamey which could be bad.
  
• Make the game non competitive such as by introducing PvE (section) where there is little pressure for performing as best as possible. You could always ignore the leaderboards but when other people depend on you, it's hard to not take the best.
  
• Vary the environments themselves. This makes the most sense and PGI have been certainly trying to do this up till now but the results are not that remarkable. Why?

Is there more? What do you think about the issue? Fill free to fill or chime in!

Sounds like you are confusing balance and meta. Those arent connected. We have a over-bearing meta because most other weapons suck.

It's a combination of multiple layers: tonnage, heat, range, pin point dmg, front loaded dmg, spread dmg and hit registration.

The current Meta sucks due to the efficiency of Lasers.

Edited by mogs01gt, 25 January 2016 - 05:20 AM.

[DovisKhan]

adamts01, on 25 January 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

I'd rather see slight nerfs than slight buffs. Power creep is real.


I'm with you on a lower heat cap, and zone quirks sound cool. But some mechs just need help. True some weapons are just crap, but some mechs are too. Take the Summoner for instance. Standard armor and structure mixed with anemic, low mounted hard points. It doesn't have the tonnage to run heavy weapons or the hard points to boat small ones. It needs buffs. The UAC10 it carries doesn't need buffs.



That's absolutely not true. There are some small pulse, medium pulse builds that will eat a dire alive. Dakka dires have to face tank to do damage, can't torso twist and their side torsos melt like butter.

Ok lets try the best case scenario for the pulser, that's 12 cmpl - 96 damage, every 3 sec, we're also assuming that guy is standing in liquid nitrogen as not to overheat.


He'd need 2 volleys to a side torso, or 3 volleys to the center torso, so we're gonna assume he'll not miss and go for the torso as it's the quickest way to drop the dire


We're also say they start firing at the same time, instantly when they see each other, that means the laser guy needs a minimum 0 + 3 + 3 = 6 sec


Now the Dire deals 6 x 5 x 2 = 60 dps, that's 180 damage, or double in the same time of what the pulser does.


Now even if the dakka dire is always face front and the other guy is twisting, he has enough damage to shred a component and shred the torso, effectively reducing the firepower of said laser guy and extending his own livelyhood.


Granted there's the jam chance, but it won't save the laser guy.

Edited by DovisKhan, 25 January 2016 - 05:23 AM.

[oldradagast]

DovisKhan, on 25 January 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

Ok lets try the best case scenario for the pulser, that's 12 cmpl - 96 damage, every 3 sec, we're also assuming that guy is standing in liquid nitrogen as not to overheat.

Granted there's the jam chance, but it won't save the laser guy.

I'm not sure it's valid to compare the best dakka boat in the game by a long margin with laser vomit - which can be mounted on almost any mech - and use it to prove that laser vomit is not the most reliable meta build in the game.

Yes, a dakka Dire Wolf will shred anything, and the same might be said for a few other dakka-heavy mechs. But other than that, laser vomit basically rules on any mech that can equip it, which is most mechs in the game.

[DovisKhan]

oldradagast, on 25 January 2016 - 05:48 AM, said:

I'm not sure it's valid to compare the best dakka boat in the game by a long margin with laser vomit - which can be mounted on almost any mech - and use it to prove that laser vomit is not the most reliable meta build in the game.

Yes, a dakka Dire Wolf will shred anything, and the same might be said for a few other dakka-heavy mechs. But other than that, laser vomit basically rules on any mech that can equip it, which is most mechs in the game.

Well it's meta for a reason ofc lasers are the go to choice due to great tonnage/damage ratio and plenty of hardpoints designed for them, however I just had to point out you can't really dismiss other weapons as a bad choice by default since they work in some cases.


That said Ballistic tree really needs some love:

Shotgun is a pile of crap, the only mech it's even worth considering it for is the Orion - M version, since you can cut the cooldown in half with quirks+modules and get a semi decent weapon.


AC5 is simply ~half of a UAC5, sure there's the jam chance, but it's still always better to have a UAC


Gauss is ridiculous for a choice, it's close to the same as an AC10, but with a lot more tonnage, with an AC10 you get the weapon and 600 damage worth of ammo for the same tonnage and dps wise AC is better, + the insta fire is better for poking


^ Basically half the tree is useless under most conditions

[Bishop Steiner]

DovisKhan, on 25 January 2016 - 03:05 AM, said:

That's not true at all

Pit a max laser vomit vs a 6 CUAC 5 Dire and it will shred that laser guy in less than it can recharge for a second shot.


Laser meta is only for the peek and poke play, which is of course what happens in open maps, like the new one, but some maps cater more to brawling and a laser stands absolutely no chance at that vs an auto-cannon

...lol.... do you even play the game?

Dakkawhale is strong, situationally, and not nearly so much since the skill tree nerf.

It's also ONE MECH packing an obscene amount of firepower due to having more tons of guns than anything. In fact it has more tons than it has crits to effectively use that tonnage to laservomit.

Yes, sure, Dakkawhale is the one true meta, *rolls eyes*

[DovisKhan]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 January 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

...lol.... do you even play the game?

Dakkawhale is strong, situationally, and not nearly so much since the skill tree nerf.

It's also ONE MECH packing an obscene amount of firepower due to having more tons of guns than anything. In fact it has more tons than it has crits to effectively use that tonnage to laservomit.

Yes, sure, Dakkawhale is the one true meta, *rolls eyes*

That only means that AC has a bit too much tonnage attached to it and too few hardpoints made for it in most other mechs



Also, it's not like the CUAC 20 version couldn't twist torso as advertised by every laser vomit salesman, with 4 sec cd he can sure twist, and the 3 CUAC 20 + 4 cmed lasers and 2 cmpl has more firepower than needed to burst down even another dire in 1 sec, that's right, 168 damage in 1 sec


So yeah, if you do have a dire, you should spec it for ballistics as it's the best possible damage dealer in this spec

[mogs01gt]

DovisKhan, on 25 January 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

That only means that AC has a bit too much tonnage attached to it and too few hardpoints made for it in most other mechs
Also, it's not like the CUAC 20 version couldn't twist torso as advertised by every laser vomit salesman, with 4 sec cd he can sure twist, and the 3 CUAC 20 + 4 cmed lasers and 2 cmpl has more firepower than needed to burst down even another dire in 1 sec, that's right, 168 damage in 1 secSo yeah, if you do have a dire, you should spec it for ballistics as it's the best possible damage dealer in this spec

umm not following your point.

DPS mechs have to have reveal their entire hardpoint layouts to effectively use those weapons. A DWF using gauss+laser vomit can poke and get back into cover. This means by the time the DPS DWF is able to effectively use his hardpoints, his armor is already halved.

[C I L L I P U D D I]

DWF's are some of the easiest mechs in the game to kill. Anyone dumb enough to go toe to toe with it deserves their death. It turns slow and moves slow. Target torsos and call it a day. There are few other mechs, if any, that I would rather be stuck in a 1 on 1 situation with. So, I don't believe they're the #1 example of meta by any means. If you're gonna talk meta assaults go BLR or STK, hell, even BNC's.

Laser builds are far superior and will always be superior because of unlimited damage potential. Dakka builds run out of ammo, Lasers fire forever. So when your 6xUAC5 DWF is running around with empty guns, the LPL built BLR/STK/BNC are still smashing asses.

I feel like people who don't really understand the meta or what it is, just jump on this "laser vomit" or "gauss/laser" thing and start spewing nonsense. You guys are talking about UAC's and ERmeds, thats legit 2 metas old. It's all about fitting as many LPL's and Gauss on mechs now. Aside from this week of Polar Highlands scrubnasties running LRMS. Pulse lasers and Gauss are true meta. EBJ with 2xGauss 3xERmed is probably the most meta thing you can run atm, if you want to be in the know. And yes I know it has ERmeds on it, only because you cant fit a decent number of LPL's on it with 2 Gauss.

Probably need to do some real research before you come off as a *******.

Edited by Cillipuddi, 25 January 2016 - 06:46 AM.

[VorpalAnvil]

Terribads; this is your thread. Do with it what you will...

[Hit the Deck]

Just to be more clear, this thread is actually about ways PGI could do to promote more diverse "metas" as opposed to having one or two builds which stand tall above the rest.

Oh, and I'm the thread creator if you haven't noticed already

[C I L L I P U D D I]

PGI can nothing about meta. Meta is based off players. If they keep nerf/buffing weapons the power creep will make them evenetually have to reset everything to square one.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cillipuddi, on 25 January 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

PGI can nothing about meta. Meta is based off players. If they keep nerf/buffing weapons the power creep will make them evenetually have to reset everything to square one.

This is about as stupid a comment as ever uttered.

Meta is based entirely off the balance of weapons, hardpoints, hitboxes, and even the map terrain.

All those are squarely in PGIs control. There will always be a meta. PGI sure as heck can mitigate the severity of it.

By
Balancing
Their
Dang
Game

At this point I can only hope you are trolling.....

[AdamBaines]

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

...because there will always be something which is the most optimal for the environment........

I agree with what you say, but the word you use is "could". Of course people could always argue, and in some cases have individual valid points, but might not make much sense in the grand argument. I think the word you "could" have used in stead is "should" :-)

We can argue anything and complain about 1st world problems, but really.....should we? :-)

[Hit the Deck]

AdamBaines, on 25 January 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

I agree with what you say, but the word you use is "could". Of course people could always argue, and in some cases have individual valid points, but might not make much sense in the grand argument. I think the word you "could" have used in stead is "should" :-)

We can argue anything and complain about 1st world problems, but really.....should we? :-)

Well, I'd generally like to think that I can't complain about something for being what or the way it is.

People can indeed complain that "this" or "that" meta sucks because it's utterly lame, for example, and they demand that PGI do something about the situation/meta.

[Omi_]

The meta isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Though in practice, long-range direct fire beats long-range indirect fire.

[mogs01gt]

Cillipuddi, on 25 January 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

PGI can nothing about meta. Meta is based off players. If they keep nerf/buffing weapons the power creep will make them evenetually have to reset everything to square one.

Players decide if they want to play the game in the most efficient manor. The Devs make the balancing decisions to force the game play to one side or the other.

[Red Shrike]

Hornsby, on 25 January 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

The meta isn't as bad as people make it out to be.

Yes it is. I can't poke my head around a corner without getting half my mech blown off. I'd call that bad.

[AdamBaines]

Hit the Deck, on 25 January 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Well, I'd generally like to think that I can't complain about something for being what or the way it is.

People can indeed complain that "this" or "that" meta sucks because it's utterly lame, for example, and they demand that PGI do something about the situation/meta.

True....true...

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 January 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

Yes, SOMETHING will always be tops.

The Issue, in MWO, has traditionally been the divide between that something, and everything else. For that, there is no need, and no excuse.

I would have no issue, if Laservomit (or insert FotM here) was option 1a.
As long as we had some choices that comprised 1b.

Problem is with MWO, we go straight from option 1, the Meta of the Moment, to option rank 5 or 6, everything else really sucks in comparison. Not sorta sucks, not "well, this is good, but pewpew is better".

No, it's THIS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY, AND ALL ELSE IS META APOSTASY.

See the difference?

Put the GH on erLL, LL and LPL back to 2 like the Clan versions. Heat penalty level can be negotiated.

Edited by Almond Brown, 25 January 2016 - 10:29 AM.

[Lugh]

Cillipuddi, on 25 January 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

There's always one of these "meta" posts every other day. You can't stop meta. You can't make every weapon equal to the next, because if you did you would just have generic laser weapon #1 and generic ballistic weapon #1. Most of you don't understand power creep on buffing/nerfing and the other half are too busy being rebels and fighting us dirty scumbag meta players, whom smoke your *** 9/10, while you derp around in your 2 LL AWE. Competitive players, who enjoy winning and big damage numbers, will always min/max in games. Regardless of how much it butchers your lore or whatever breaks your tenderhearts about it.

Nothing PGI does and nothing you suggest will make you better at the game, and you will always have things to complain about. It's ok though, I understand playing the game to have fun and by all means I promote it. Please keep playing the game, but do understand when you buff one thing and nerf another some thing else will take the metas place. Just like when they nerfed gauss and cermeds, srms and assaults became meta for a few weeks. And people were complaining about assaults, it may not have been anyone in this particular post but it happened. Game balance will never replace player skill. Buffs and nerfs only make the cream rise higher, and make the lower end players complain more.

But you can make other options as viable. Currently laser vomit is the king of meta because idjit simpletons like waving instant on damage at people at 1600meters. PPCs and Long range ACs take over 1 second to travel that far and thus can be dodged like dodgeballs.

The solution of course is the increase to PPC velocity = max range of weapon. That way it will hit more often at longer ranges. Then apply quirks to the Awesomes, Marauders, Warhammers, Warhawk etc that use them effectively so they go slightly faster.

THEN they have a chance of being used instead of instant ON can't hardly miss LAZORs (because the underhive complained so loudly for so long that LAZORs canna compete, we have what we have today)

Hornsby, on 25 January 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

The meta isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Though in practice, long-range direct fire beats long-range indirect fire.

Tell that to the LRM heavy teams on Highlands cleaning up at the moment.