55 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

As a start, it should be one or the other. There is no reason 850-980 m ER LL should be getting duration bonuses.

Also, either buff cERLL range or duration. Might be cool to leave it at 1.5 s but have 800m optimum. Let's see these weapons used again.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Tell that to the Locust 1V

[FupDup]

For Clam ERLL I'd like a starting point of reducing the beam to 1.4s or so and nudging the damage down to 10 to reduce alpha strike power.

Going too much lower might invalidate the Clam LPL just like we saw during the initial invasion, and remember that the Clam ERLL is both lighter and smaller than its IS counterpart... You might be able to negotiate to keep the damage at 11 though, just don't make the beam too much shorter.

For range, the Clam ERLL is more than fine. Its fatal flaw is just duration.

[Sjorpha]

I think the long duration on the cERLL is interesting because it requires a steady hand and good aim, it gives the weapon a special flavor. I love using it and I don't want the duration reduced.

I would rather buff it's range, damage or heat if it needs a buff.

[kapusta11]

cER LL is indeed a garbage weapon but even with 20% range quirk IS ML has still less range than cMPL, IS LL has still less range than cLPL and IS smalls are beyond hope in general.

Edited by kapusta11, 25 January 2016 - 09:27 AM.

[Khobai]

PGI needs to rebalance clan and IS weapons and make them more equal (but different) at the base level. that would eliminate the need to give IS weapons insane weapon quirks to balance the disparity between clan and IS tech.

For example, if we adjust the CERLL so its roughly equal to the ISERLL, it looks like this:
CERLL = 10 damage, 9 heat, 3.50 cooldown, 1.35 beam duration, 740m range
ISERLL = 9 damage, 8 heat, 3.25 cooldown, 1.25 beam duration, 675m range

Clan weapons retain their damage and range advantage, but have higher heat, longer cooldown, and longer duration to balance it out.

Edited by Khobai, 25 January 2016 - 09:35 AM.

[cSand]

Agree

Actually I think weapons quirks should be removed altogether and the weapons themselves adjusted.

But balancing the weapons themselves instead of slapping percentages on every single chassis...

Edited by cSand, 25 January 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

it takes a duration of 16% and a range of almost 10% to make clan er and er laser equal. So no, i don't see removing both. Thats still not counting clan is 1 ton less. Heat is a tiny bit better still on the clan.

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Agree

Actually I think weapons quirks should be removed altogether and the weapons themselves adjusted.

But balancing the weapons themselves instead of slapping percentages on every single chassis...

We had this it didnt work 99% of mechs were not even usable. Atleast now you can use about every mech. Sure a few are better than others but nothing like they were before.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 25 January 2016 - 10:03 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Monkey Lover, on 25 January 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

We had this it didnt work 99% of mechs were not even usable. Atleast now you can use about every mech. Sure a few are better than others but nothing like they were before.

You skipped the second half of his statement, we never balanced the weapons themselves prior. Granted balancing things goes a bit beyond weapons, but equipment as well (cXL vs iXL, cXL vs STD).

[Monkey Lover]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 09:35 AM, said:

You skipped the second half of his statement, we never balanced the weapons themselves prior. Granted balancing things goes a bit beyond weapons, but equipment as well (cXL vs iXL, cXL vs STD).

Im talking about before clans even showed up ISvIS balance. Just balancing weapons and equipment would not work. I would agree it would be closer but you still need the quirk system.

[cSand]

kapusta11, on 25 January 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

cER LL is indeed a garbage weapon but even with 20% range quirk IS ML has still less range than cMPL, IS LL has still less range than cLPL and IS smalls are beyond hope in general.

None of this matters since eventually IS gets ER mediums and smalls etc etc. IS should have less range, shorter duration, less power. I see no problems. Small lasers aren't supposed to be that effective. They are meant for small mechs. IS ERLL should not be out performing IS ERLL on any chassis, period.

IS mechs for the most part would be fine without weapons quirks period, providing that some of the actual weapons themselves had some minor adjustments made.. They have such a structure buff and mobility buff over Clams right now, and I hate to say it, but IS is now the EZ mode. I hate that since I'm an IS pilot. I don't fear the TBR of DWF much these days. It used to be that taking on a TBR 1 on 1 was a big deal, you had to have you head screwed on. Now it's like, yea OK I'll bust off your torso in a couple shots and that's it for you mate. DWF is harmless unless you are standing right in front of it and not moving. Balance is the best it's been in awhile, which is saying something, but they went too far in the other direction and neutered the Clammers.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Pulling quirks all together doesn't work either.

You can try and balance Clan and IS weapons all you want and get things pretty darn close, but that won't solve the problem with one mech just mounting more weapons than another can mount. So, weapons are balanced, but now chassis are unbalanced.

A 65 ton Jester has 6 energy hard points, but another 65 tonner like an EBJ can mount 8. With no quirks, the EBJ (all weapons treated equal with no quirks) is just flat out better. Do we give the Jester 2 additional hard points to compete? Is hard point inflation really better than quirks? We can go back to the Locust 1V, how is it balanced on par to other lights without quirks (not that the current ones help much Lol)?

I'm for continual weapon balancing, but expect quirks to stay. Quirks are important to the title the way the game is structured. Balancing weapons alone with no quirks is not the answer.

[cSand]

Monkey Lover, on 25 January 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

We had this it didnt work 99% of mechs were not even usable. Atleast now you can use about every mech. Sure a few are better than others but nothing like they were before.

Yes, we also didn't have mobility and structure quirks either at that time, or Clan nerfs.

edit: You mean before clams. Well, we have other quirks on chassis now, both positive and negative. Totally different ballgame now compared to then.

Edited by cSand, 25 January 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Monkey Lover, on 25 January 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Im talking about before clans even showed up ISvIS balance. Just balancing weapons and equipment would not work. I would agree it would be closer but you still need the quirk system.

You don't necessarily need weapons quirks to balance poor performing chassis, there are other quirks that can be useful. That said I don't think all weapon quirks are bad, they should definitely still exist to add flavor and help give mechs with underwhelming firepower some better oomph. The problem is they are being used to balance tech base issues, well that and they are only using multiplicative quirks (wtb additive range quirks).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 January 2016 - 09:44 AM.

[FupDup]

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

-
Small lasers aren't supposed to be that effective. They are meant for small mechs.
-

The problem is that small mechs, just like their larger cousins, don't like to use weapons that suck. They can always use other options instead that don't suck.

[Monkey Lover]

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

Yes, we also didn't have mobility and structure quirks either at that time, or Clan nerfs.

edit: You mean before clams. Well, we have other quirks on chassis now, both positive and negative. Totally different ballgame now compared to then.

If you add in cooldown quirks i could see this working. Thats if the clanners all dont jump off a cliff when they nerf the clan medium into the ground or even the er small laser.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 25 January 2016 - 10:04 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 January 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

As a start, it should be one or the other. There is no reason 850-980 m ER LL should be getting duration bonuses.

Also, either buff cERLL range or duration. Might be cool to leave it at 1.5 s but have 800m optimum. Let's see these weapons used again.

Rather, mechs that can bring a full compliment of quirked weapons should stack the best quirks available.
My Arrow gets 20% range, 20% duration(half second) and 10% less heat on its LPLs, a trio which absolutely ruin the comparable SadCat...both mechs which ignore the 6B available to mount 3 lasers instead. Over double the duration for the SadCat, for similar heat and 150M optimal range.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

You don't necessarily need weapons quirks to balance poor performing chassis, there are other quirks that can be useful. That said I don't think all weapon quirks are bad, they should definitely still exist to add flavor and help give mechs with underwhelming firepower some better oomph. The problem is they are being used to balance tech base issues, well that and they are only using multiplicative quirks (wtb additive range quirks).

Truth.

Look at the Awesomes. Have had strong offensive quirks, are still sh!t mechs.

I had a topic recently about essentially half the IS mechs having energy range quirks and over half having energy heat gen quirks and that maybe it's time to actually just wash the quirks as they away and simply fixing the weapons.

[cSand]

FupDup, on 25 January 2016 - 09:45 AM, said:

The problem is that small mechs, just like their larger cousins, don't like to use weapons that suck. They can always use other options instead that don't suck.

They don't suck though, if you use them appropriately. But any weapon in this game barring the heavy hitters, carrying just 1 of it is... a waste of tonnage

Monkey Lover, on 25 January 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

If you add in cooldown quirks i could see this working. Thats if the clanners all dont jump off a cliff when they nerf the clean medium into the ground or even the er small laser.

Lol

They can hold a pity party. Just don't drink the punch :|

Edited by cSand, 25 January 2016 - 09:55 AM.

[FupDup]

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

They don't suck though, if you use them appropriately. But any weapon in this game barring the heavy hitters, carrying just 1 of it is... a waste of tonnage

Currently, the appropriate use of the Inner Sphere vanilla Small Laser is to simply not use it.

I'm not talking about just mounting literally 1 of them either. Comparing 2 SL to 1 ML for the same weight (but 1 more slot and 1 more hardpoint), the SL's lose a massive chunk of range that isn't compensated enough to make it worthwhile in most cases.