71 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

Oh my god, Light PPCs, Snub-nosed PPCs, Plasma Rifles, Light ACs, and MagShots would, together, obsolete just about everything else in the IS or Clan arsenals except Heavy Lasers. Would be a shame if somebody were to actively spike the Clans' heat while ripping through their armor...

It's evil and I want it.

Also, lore-speak, the Clans are ultimately more backwards and mentally deficient than the Inner Sphere. It's no wonder they all but ceased to exist by the Republic era. Ain't nobody want to put up with that ****...

Well, being fair, heavy lasers are potentially pretty horrifying. And for some reason I only just remembered HAGs, though I can't foresee those being anything but clumsy as hell to both build with and use.

As for why the Clans largely disappeared by the time the Republic was a thing...well, the franchise's creators and all its subsequent handlers pretty much wanted to go back in time and eliminate them forever anyways. Heh, does it surprise anyone they were portrayed as being backwards, idiot-brained and eventually self-destructive for juuust long enough to make them irrelevant...right before the entire rest of the Inner Sphere went back to being the same way?

Heh, let's remember what state the Sphere was in prior to the Invasion, eh? The Clans weren't/aren't the only ones capable of being dunderheads in the name of WAR

wanderer, on 25 January 2016 - 05:50 PM, said:

@Wanderer

Why you gotta go there, man? Why does everyone always have to go there? Do you honestly believe there won't be a meta-optimal collection of weapons that delivers better overall performance than everything else if we switch to a system wherein players are unable to aim their weapons? SRM Splat pseudomelee builds are already a thing - not, perhaps, a T0 Ultracomp Overlord thing, but definitely a thing. You don't think SRMs would utterly dominate the game forever if everything else - that deals significantly less damage, over a longer period of time, for a great deal more weight, than massively weight-to-damage efficient and low-recycle SRM launchers - suddenly had Moon-sized fire randomization if you didn't make all the proper blood sacrifices to the Blackened Gods first?

I get it, I do - people want more TT in their MWO. A fair desire, this is a BattleTech game. That said, it's also a shooter. Being able to hit what you aim at, if your aim is good, is a fundamental requirement of the core gameplay engine the game is built on. THis isn't the thread for it (WHY did you have to go there, man?), but if you'd like to go to PM I can explain the million and one reasons why pulling in arbitrary accuracy limiters from other shooters does not work in MWO. It just doesn't.

It just...doesn't...

Edited by 1453 R, 25 January 2016 - 06:03 PM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 January 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

Inner Sphere Plasma Rifles, Clan Plasma Cannons, and Clan Chemical Lasers are all true-to-BT energy weapons with ammo requirements.

I really, really want Plasma Rifles. Oh yes, heat-inducing AC/10s that weight six tons? Where do I sign?

I'd rather have a PPC for that 7 ton minumum investment. Throw a couple machine guns or a ton of inferno SRM ammo on there to deal with infantry and vehicles.

[sycocys]

Could just halve the heat caps (or more) then multiple alpha shots = suicide.

[LordKnightFandragon]

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Since we're not gonna get a heat system rework, I'd actually be OK with GH on anything more than 3 energy weapons of any variety. Maybe exclude small lasers and make it 4 for them or something.

Yeah, rather then do the sensible thing and truly overhaul the heat system and all that, lets just go with the most derpy option that makes the least sense.....

Really, just seems game devs are lazy anymore.

[Bonger Bob]

cSand, on 25 January 2016 - 05:14 PM, said:

Since we're not gonna get a heat system rework, I'd actually be OK with GH on anything more than 3 energy weapons of any variety. Maybe exclude small lasers and make it 4 for them or something.

sycocys, on 25 January 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

Could just halve the heat caps (or more) then multiple alpha shots = suicide.

heat scale rework is another thing entirely, personally id love to see heat mean something other than an absolute threshold inducing shutdown.

scaled heat induced penalties like sensor range reduction, ecm shutdown, reduced movement speed, jump jet failure, increased ammo explosion risk ( if mech is glowing read from heat, the ammo in it should be cooking ready to blow like popcorn ), the list goes on......so many better options than ghost heat.......

brilliant thread with that theme : http://mwomercs.com/...han-ghost-heat/

Edited by Bonger Bob, 26 January 2016 - 12:20 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

1453 R, on 25 January 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

Sphere Plasma rifles over Clan plasma cannons are one of the places where the Sphere just inarguably flat-out wins compared to the Clan tech. I'm not as up on my TT rules as someone who's actually played the game...but Plasma Rifles are high-energy, high-impact cannons perfectly suitable as primary weapons that combine the best parts of PPCs and autocannons with what amounts to impact napalm. A Warhammer with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be would be kinda nightmareish, really. Or anything with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be.

I don't see it. Its a 1 ton lighter and 1 slot smaller PPC that needs ammo (thus utterly invalidating the size and weight advantage), it generates the same heat as the PPC so needs the same heatsink load and has less range (equal to IS-LL). So basically you are paying some range and taking on ammo dependency to remove the min range? The only advantage would be the target heat load, but PGI are (correctly) very wary of implementing crowd control weapons in their FPS, so i doubt that feature would be much use.

Would not use. (assuming it retained stats somewhat equal to TT, like the PPC has)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 January 2016 - 12:50 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

system wherein players are unable to aim their weapons

Why do people constantly equate "I can't put every gun on my 'Mech on the same pixel" with "I can't aim" when I mention a binary convergence system?

You just replace "my guns converge at precise range" with "my guns converge at a default point a long distance away if no sensor data". Magically, your guns still all hit- they just stop hitting the exact same spot with every single gun on the 'Mech.

This isn't cone-of-fire or random hit locations. Fire at a stationary target without a lock and data while standing still. Do it again. Each gun hits the exact same spot it did the first time- they just don't all hit the same spot because they're not zeroed on the target.

Get sensor lock? Everything hits the same spot as you've got perfect convergence again. Amazingly, this means *gasp* your sensors actually help you shoot things better!

[HollowBassman]

What if they gave heatsinks a healthbar that was tied to your heat. Anytime you go over ??% heat, the health of your heatsinks slowly start to deteriorate unless/until you drop back under ??%. The higher you keep your heat, the faster they deteriorate until you lose one and start deteriorating the next heatsink.

This could somewhat simulate ammo but in a way the makes more sense. It also encourages being responsible with your heat and could help slow boating and alpha strikes, also.

It could be a way to increase the usefulness of single heatsinks if you made each of them have the same health as a double heatsink. Then the choice would be more heat durability vs cap and dissipation.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Heatsinks with health is an interesting idea. If it had one flaw that I can see, it is that it would impact lighter mechs greater than heavier mechs. Light mechs normally can't dissipate heat as effectively as bigger mechs with more heat sinks. For some lights, 4 MLasers can get a mech fairly hot quickly. Lights also can't spare heatsinks (due to loss) like a heavy could.

With the issue being more centered on larger mechs boating vs smaller ones, I think the mechanic could punish the wrong class of mech (light).

Also, in the heat of battle (no pun intended), it might be too difficult to monitor heat sink health while fighting the enemy. A heat bar is easy to be mindful of, but a Heat sink health status is trickier. I wonder if it wouldn't be too distracting.

Overall I like the out of the box thinking. It think it needs some more work though. Still, it is interesting.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 26 January 2016 - 06:07 AM.

[wanderer]

Incidentally, TT actually has optional rules for coolant failure (loss of effectiveness on heat sinks, basically) caused by overheating a 'Mech too often.

Just put an indicator bar on top of the heat scale for current efficiency vs. maximum. It'd work for stuff that crits/destroys sinks as well.

[martian]

1453 R, on 25 January 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

Sphere Plasma rifles over Clan plasma cannons are one of the places where the Sphere just inarguably flat-out wins compared to the Clan tech. I'm not as up on my TT rules as someone who's actually played the game...but Plasma Rifles are high-energy, high-impact cannons perfectly suitable as primary weapons that combine the best parts of PPCs and autocannons with what amounts to impact napalm. A Warhammer with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be would be kinda nightmareish, really. Or anything with plasma rifles where PPCs used to be.

Plasma Cannons are oversized, overweight flamers with slightly better range and ammunition issues. Eugh.

Both weapons are different, and doing different things.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yeah, rather then do the sensible thing and truly overhaul the heat system and all that, lets just go with the most derpy option that makes the least sense.....

the heat system isnt the problem. the problem is convergence. and even if you overhaul the heat system convergence is STILL a problem.

lets say you redo the heat system so people cant fire more than 3 lasers at once.

everyone will just switch to a combination of gauss rifles and lasers and theyll still fire converging gauss rifles/lasers for 50 damage into one location.

congrats. youve solved nothing except force the meta to become gauss/laser warrior online.

Edited by Khobai, 26 January 2016 - 08:08 AM.

[TELEFORCE]

martian, on 26 January 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

Both weapons are different, and doing different things.

This. The Clan plasma cannon is far more effective against vehicles and infantry than the Inner Sphere plasma rifle. There's a canon Hellbringer config with four of the weapons that can commit far worse war crimes than any of the canon configs for the Dire Wolf.

Edited by TELEFORCE, 26 January 2016 - 08:07 AM.

[Kira Onime]

I don't want to have to post this again but you leave me no choice.

[1453 R]

Widowmaker1981, on 26 January 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

I don't see it. Its a 1 ton lighter and 1 slot smaller PPC that needs ammo (thus utterly invalidating the size and weight advantage), it generates the same heat as the PPC so needs the same heatsink load and has less range (equal to IS-LL). So basically you are paying some range and taking on ammo dependency to remove the min range? The only advantage would be the target heat load, but PGI are (correctly) very wary of implementing crowd control weapons in their FPS, so i doubt that feature would be much use.

Would not use. (assuming it retained stats somewhat equal to TT, like the PPC has)

Well, again, I'm not as conversant with the TT rules as I prolly should be, but it definitely seems like a case where the gun is absolutely ripe for MWO-specific quirkiness. I mean hell, the fact is that it's an ammo-dependent with finite rounds and a fixed* firing rate. Who's to say they can't make its target heat load effect significantly more substantial than the Flamer? Considering the fact that it both generates significant heat and requires ammo expenditure, Piranha could easily be justified in giving it much higher shot velocity and better refire than the PPC, as well. It's an energy autocannon, of sorts - so give it the lower refire rates of non-20 autocannons. Configure it so that even light 'Mechs, smaller mediums, or E hardpoint-constrained machines can center their armament around a plasma rifle if they like and make it work. An ammo-limited PPC with 1500 velocity and a 2.5s refire sounds like it could be pretty boss to me. Also hot as hell, but hey - just means you don't need seven of the things to get the job done. Unless you're TheB33f.

TELEFORCE, on 26 January 2016 - 08:07 AM, said:

This. The Clan plasma cannon is far more effective against vehicles and infantry than the Inner Sphere plasma rifle. There's a canon Hellbringer config with four of the weapons that can commit far worse war crimes than any of the canon configs for the Dire Wolf.

So...those things we don't have, and likely never will have, in MWO?

Sorry man, I do understand the point, but MWO is a game where soft-target weapons just don't work. Machine guns are awful, flamers don't even really count as weapons at this point...yeah. They'd have to mutate the plasma cannon a whole lot more than the plasma rifle to make it workable in MWO. Either that or rework the game pretty much completely to introduce combined-arms gameplay in a manner that makes any sense at all, which...well.

[Mister Blastman]

LordKnightFandragon, on 25 January 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

Naw energy weapons just need to be made so that we fire them in singles or pairs, rather then banks of 8-12.

Just remove CONVERGENCE.

The game will be better when they do.

[wanderer]

They can't totally remove convergence because it'd hose HSR.

They -could- easily make convergence on a fixed, long-distance point to break up shot grouping.

They -could- allow current convergence with a full sensor lock/paperdoll. Hey, where'd all those infowarfare quirks go on Test?

They -could- actually put a heat system in.

They -could- even just have an "external heat" number that could be set to a maximum, allowing you to add flamers, inferno SRMs, and yes plasma weapon hits without people boating them into stunlock madness.

And Paul -could- spontaneously turn into a pot full of petunias.

[1453 R]

wanderer, on 26 January 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

They can't totally remove convergence because it'd hose HSR.

They -could- easily make convergence on a fixed, long-distance point to break up shot grouping.

They -could- allow current convergence with a full sensor lock/paperdoll. Hey, where'd all those infowarfare quirks go on Test?

They -could- actually put a heat system in.

They -could- even just have an "external heat" number that could be set to a maximum, allowing you to add flamers, inferno SRMs, and yes plasma weapon hits without people boating them into stunlock madness.

And Paul -could- spontaneously turn into a pot full of petunias.

Paultunias. Next winner for Serious Cockpit Item Contest.

[Widowmaker1981]

1453 R, on 26 January 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

Well, again, I'm not as conversant with the TT rules as I prolly should be, but it definitely seems like a case where the gun is absolutely ripe for MWO-specific quirkiness. I mean hell, the fact is that it's an ammo-dependent with finite rounds and a fixed* firing rate. Who's to say they can't make its target heat load effect significantly more substantial than the Flamer? Considering the fact that it both generates significant heat and requires ammo expenditure, Piranha could easily be justified in giving it much higher shot velocity and better refire than the PPC, as well. It's an energy autocannon, of sorts - so give it the lower refire rates of non-20 autocannons. Configure it so that even light 'Mechs, smaller mediums, or E hardpoint-constrained machines can center their armament around a plasma rifle if they like and make it work. An ammo-limited PPC with 1500 velocity and a 2.5s refire sounds like it could be pretty boss to me. Also hot as hell, but hey - just means you don't need seven of the things to get the job done. Unless you're TheB33f.

True, they could certainly mess with stats to make it viable i suppose. But they cannot, imo, make its heat load significant, just like they can never and should never make the flamer good - CC weapons should not exist in an fps in my opinion. Especially not long range CC weapons.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 26 January 2016 - 10:33 AM.

[Sandpit]

Wolfways, on 25 January 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

You mean instead of heat sinks?

Pretty much sums it up.
heatsinks are the "ammo" for energy weapons. You don't have enough and you're not going to be firing with any regularity or you'll spend a decent chunk of your game time shut down