106 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

I get my locks with ERPPCs

[xTrident]

Your point on an XP system heavily favoring assault mechs/LRM boats couldn't be more correct. Go one further and say the XP system doesn't favor anyone actually trying to accomplish the game mode as well.

Played assault a couple nights ago - was running a Centurion so I had decent speed and "okay" weapons, albeit designed more for brawling - AC20 and SRM's. Anyway it's on Caustic Valley and usually this match turns into my team turtling behind one side of the valley waiting for the enemy team to advance. As I'm waiting someone says to go to their base, try to split them up some. Because I'm literally doing nothing but moving around trying to get into any kind of position I say, "I'll go!" and off I went. Mind you I hadn't taken one shot at this point ~3 or 4 minutes into the game. So I go to the enemy teams base and just chill slowly but surely taking it down. Well the enemy team decides it's time to do something because of such so they push a little and go for our base. I'm not in the fight so I really don't know for sure what was going on but I know they went and hit our base as well which then prompted our team to push.

Eventually an enemy Thunderbolt comes over to me at around 55% health. I'm not too worried because I was nearly perfect yet. So I go around and take him out with two or three shots and get back on the base while the rest of my team finishes off everyone else. The match ends by killing the enemy team all the while I nearly won it being literally two or three seconds away from capturing their base. I sat on that damn thing the entire time - which was a strategy the team wanted me to take. Match ends and I wind up with 55 damage and the Thunderbolt kill. I get around 150 XP and because I was using the Cent-AH I think I got between $50,000 and $70,000 cbills. It was pretty damn low either way.

Now I realize as far as contributing to the way we accomplished victory I did extremely little to help. But to get zero credit for nearly capturing their entire base ALL by myself.... That's ridiculous! When the match came to an end just before the stats and rewards came up I was optimistic because that was the first time I had ever nearly captured an enemy base all by myself. I thought for sure I'd get some kind of decent reward for it. Nope, nothing.

So the point is this goes even further to benefit assaults/LRMs. Doesn't matter if you try to win the game based on the game mode. As long as you can deal out damage you "personally" win. Every game mode mine as well be skirmish and that's a shame because the other game modes, especially conquest, can really mix up the strategy. I can certainly tell you I won't be so quick to try and complete whatever game mode it is we're doing next time though. That's for sure.

Edited by xTrident, 27 January 2016 - 06:12 AM.

[mogs01gt]

MrMadguy, on 27 January 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

Those, who say, that LRM boats are ineffective at higher Tiers - just don't know, how to play them. 1440 ammo - too few. It's just about 400-500 dmg. I usually equip 2k ammo and even in this case I usually run out of it at the end of match. And AWS-8R is capable of carrying 3k ammo. If you play LRM boat - it should be dedicated LRM boat. Having things, like LL - is pointless waste of tonnage.

negative, anything more than 1000 rounds of ammo is over kill. I average 416 dmg in my KTO and only take 5t of ammo.

[adamts01]

KinLuu, on 27 January 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

No, it is not.

3.0 w/l ratio is what I consider better than average. Besides - you can not really calculate averages from 30 something games.

For every 12 players that win, 12 players lose. If your W/L is 1, you're average. Do you even math bro?

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

DMG is far too heavily weighted, efficiency, ignored. One should be averaging a kill for every 200 dmg to be "doing good". 250ish at worst. 150 or less if you want to be "comp".

Kills are too heavily weighted. I'll frequently carry my team and only get 1 or 2 kills. I focus on the biggest threat, and let the noobs fight over my weaponless scraps.

[Alistair Winter]

adamts01, on 27 January 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

kdr might be the most worthless stat in the game. OP pretty much proved that by showing it isn't related to winning. It's all about the wins, and 1.7 w/l is respectable.

Thanks. And here's another point:

The point of this thread isn't so much to talk about my individual skills or what I personally can do with this mech. The important question isn't: Are Alistair's stats really that impressive? The important questions are:

• Are these stats better than Alistair's stats with other mechs, in terms of WLR, C-bills and PSR increase?
  
• If yes, is this perhaps the reason for other people playing LRM boats as well?

Because while I do like to fancy myself a capable player, I will happily admit that my overall average in the solo queue is not a 1.7 WLR. For most of my Inner Sphere mechs with 50+ matches played, my WLR is somewhere between 1.0 and 1.5. In some cases, even below 1.0. (My sweet CPLT-K2, bless its old heart, is just not a very good PPC carrier)

For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a fairly average player. I would still contend that playing as an LRM boat is a very good way of farming C-bills and increasing PSR. For me and for other average players. Maybe too good. And maybe something does need to be done about it.

[mogs01gt]

adamts01, on 27 January 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

For every 12 players that win, 12 players lose. If your W/L is 1, you're average. Do you even math bro?

Most players do not understand ratio's.

Quote

Kills are too heavily weighted. I'll frequently carry my team and only get 1 or 2 kills. I focus on the biggest threat, and let the noobs fight over my weaponless scraps.

this!!!!

[Ratpoison]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

I can see that. My favourite build used to be my CPLT-C1 with 2xLRM15+Artemis, 2xLL, TAG, XL300 and jump jets. A jack of all trades mech. It's actually not so bad now, with the latest quirks, but I don't play the CPLT-C1 anymore because it's just too ugly. When they fix those oversized missile-boxes, I'll probably start playing it more.

I've had that same CPLT-C1 in my mechbay for a very long time now, definitely an excellent build that I always go back to. Little details and the meta wont ever make me abandon my Catapults, not even the C4 or A1.

[adamts01]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

Yeah, this is definitely a problem. While I see the point about versatility raised above, I actually think it would improve my stats considerably if I swapped my LL for a second ML and added 4 tons of ammo. It would probably result in some lower scores occasionally, but the average effectiveness would probably go up.

MWO has a min-maxing problem, as I see it. It's particularly evident with lasers and LRMs.

The only reason I'm not min-maxing harder with this build, is because I feel I need to draw the line somewhere

LRMs are pretty sad against good teams, and need some redesigning. But sometimes I use them because meta is boring. Funny enough, my best performing LRM mech is my LRM60 Timberwolf with 21 tons of ammo and 2 tons of armor. I can make it rain all day, focus on nothing but making it rain, and if I get cought in a firefight, it's because I'm out of position.

[Alistair Winter]

xTrident, on 27 January 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

Your point on an XP system heavily favoring assault mechs/LRM boats couldn't be more correct. Go one further and say the XP system doesn't favor anyone actually trying to accomplish the game mode as well.

<snip>

The problem is, PGI has created game modes that aren't actually very good. So they disincentivize capping in Assault, for example, to prevent boring gameplay.

MWO is probably the only FPS I have ever played where you can win the fight in 2 minutes without losing a single teammate, perhaps even without any teammates being hit at all by the enemy, and the game punishes you for it. If we had better game modes, this wouldn't be an issue.

In CounterStrike, if you're able to rescue the hostages or plant the bomb without being seen or even firing a single shot, you're celebrated as a ninja. In MWO, people boo and hiss and the game punishes you for effectively doing the same thing.

[Mcgral18]

Now, for the damage complaint, the same is true for Direct Fire, and you can purposely inflate your damage without hurting your team too much:
Remove STs.

CT a Whale, get ~200 damage
Dual ST a a Whale, get closer to 400 damage, because of the arm Structure added on.


Do you take LRMs on your CT? I sacrifice my STs first, if my arm can't take it.


Of course I'd prefer you'd take a direct fire mech, but the damage argument is one which isn't always clear.

[xTrident]

I don't understand how some can say LRM boats do nothing to help the team win...? In more open maps, let's use Polar Highlands as an example when the boats get a lock on an assault they can single handedly damage that mech so much in a matter of ten to 15 seconds that assault is nearly rendered useless for the rest of the match. I've had it happen to me in my Atlas/Victor. And I'm always trying to be careful but things happen.

I have seen first hand what a large number of LRM boats can do for their team. Whether it's damage dealt or simply intimidating a team to stay in cover thus to not get locked on which in turn can let the rest of their team pick the others off since they're so condensed running around not knowing what to do.

[mogs01gt]

Mcgral18, on 27 January 2016 - 06:20 AM, said:

Now, for the damage complaint, the same is true for Direct Fire, and you can purposely inflate your damage without hurting your team too much:
Remove STs.
CT a Whale, get ~200 damage
Dual ST a a Whale, get closer to 400 damage, because of the arm Structure added on.
Do you take LRMs on your CT? I sacrifice my STs first, if my arm can't take it.
Of course I'd prefer you'd take a direct fire mech, but the damage argument is one which isn't always clear.

Then there is the other side of the argument. If you can aim and XL check IS mechs often, you'll come out with low damage and high number of kills...People will complain you are KS'ing them...

[M T]

So all lurm nubs will eventually reach tier 1?

What the f

[El Bandito]

605 damage on average while packing only 1440 LRM ammo? That's good lurming.

[mogs01gt]

x MT x, on 27 January 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

So all lurm nubs will eventually reach tier 1?

What the f

2500 matches will get you to tier1

[MrMadguy]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

Yeah, this is definitely a problem. While I see the point about versatility raised above, I actually think it would improve my stats considerably if I swapped my LL for a second ML and added 4 tons of ammo. It would probably result in some lower scores occasionally, but the average effectiveness would probably go up.

MWO has a min-maxing problem, as I see it. It's particularly evident with lasers and LRMs.

The only reason I'm not min-maxing harder with this build, is because I feel I need to draw the line somewhere

It's most common problem, when you have a choice between, for example, extra heat sink and extra ton of ammo. You should weight your choices. In case, when you can run out of ammo till the end of match - extra ton of ammo has much bigger weight, then anything else. I remember ton of examples, when extra ton of ammo could have been difference between winning and losing the match.

Also. Those, who say, that LRMs don't contribute anything towards winning the game - are wrong. LRM is like machinegun vs infantry. Even if it doesn't deal enough dmg due to low efficiency - it still forces enemies to take cover instead of pushing, which removes major part of tactical load from your team, cuz one mistake - and you're rained till death in a matter of seconds. Bad thing: "defensive fire" was effective back in 8vs8 times of Open Beta. Now only LRM is capable of serving this goal. That's why "Rush'n'stomp" - is best tactic today.

Edited by MrMadguy, 27 January 2016 - 06:34 AM.

[Fais]

Pretty Hard to argue against a 1.7 W/L ratio.

[TexAce]

LRMs are a supression weapon in my eyes, not particularly a killing weapon.

They do supression really well, even in Tier 2, so yeah, they are viable. If the team is for winning the match and not per se for killing all the enemies, then its good to have LRM boats with you.

[Nightshade24]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

Mediocre 1.06 kill ratio

Crazy inefficient 567-to-1 damage/kill ratio.

That's why LRMs are actually bad. It's right there in your data. =P

well, battletech isn't a game about efficiency stat hoarding and kill ratios.

The purpose of an LRM boat is not to get kills but to assist, support, and to suppress. All that damage goes to weakening and crippling an enemy and say Mr Meta over there like you with your gauss and large pulse lasers takes the startled enemy mech and rips those weakened torsos off to reduce the enemies fighting capability... Let's say this was a direwolf, and you and your buddy was in a catapult and a say.... stormcrow.

Normally stormcrow isn't going to kill a direwolf of equal skill and meta laser /gauss vomityness. however the stormcrow has the catapult at his side... the catapult, out of line of sight, is able to vomit it's LRM 15's all over the direwolf, the clumbersome direwolf can't get into cover fast enough and so it takes a lot of damage... the side torso that faced the brunt of hte force is more damage than the rest of the mech so the stormcrow exaggerates that damage by focusing on there, quickly taking out the side torso, direwolf now has about 50% less firepower, and is now hotter/ slower. Allowing the stormcrow and catapult more carelessly fire on the direwolfs ct and destroy it.

This being a bit of a simplified story. But with good co ordination, that LRM boat(s) could do great damage and supporting fire to an enemy, may take off weapons by themself or help friendlies do it before moving onto for the kill with the more neutral enemy. this relationship also means the LRM boat doesn't get kills, But that doesn't matter as there is lots of c-bill related goodies for an LRM boat... kill with most damage... kill assist... damage in general... winning in general... etc. It can also give C-bills to it's partner... TAG/ Spotting/ UAV/ TAG damage/ TAG stealth/ Counter ECM damage etc....

Another thing I forgot to mention was that it blinds the enemy a bit and rocks them a bout, causing them to not fire as often or as accurately as usual. Also makes people get very scared and hide back behind a hill... very good at area denial and suppressing.

[Alistair Winter]

MrMadguy, on 27 January 2016 - 06:28 AM, said:

It's most common problem, when you have a choice between, for example, extra heat sink or extra ton of ammo. You should weight your choices. In case, when you can run out of ammo till the end of match - extra ton of ammo has much bigger weight, then anything else. I remember ton of examples, when extra ton of ammo could have been difference between winning and losing the match.

Also. Those, who say, that LRMs don't contribute anything towards winning the game - are wrong. LRM is like machinegun vs infantry. Even if it doesn't deal enough dmg due to low efficiency - it still forces enemies to take cover instead of pushing, which allows your team to get closer to them. Bad thing: "defensive fire" was effective back in 8vs8 times of Open Beta. Now only LRM is capable of serving this goal. That's why "Rush'n'stomp" - is best tactic today.

I just think a lot of people are missing this side of the argument because they either don't play enough in the solo queue or because they play strictly meta builds with laservomit. I mean, People who fancy themselves 'elite' and only play laservomit will always claim that almost any other build is crap and in a sense they will be right, because laservomit is overwhelmingly powerful in MWO, for a number of reasons.

But a lot of people also tend to play more in high level group queue matches or CW, and they think that just because LRM boats are ineffective under those circumstances, LRM boats are always ineffective. But this is blatantly false. For the average player with average opposition, LRM boats can be very good within certain parameters. Especially for farming C-bills and increasing PSR.

It's certainly possible that I would do even better if I only played Thunderbolts and Banshees (or whatever the kids are doing these days) with lasers. But that's kind of besides the point.

I do play laservomit with my Black Knights sometimes. With over 400 matches played, their WLR is at about ~1.3 from only playing the solo queue. Much better KDR, of course. But they're not actually winning as many matches as my AWS-8R. Sadly, I don't have any proper metamechs to compare with, because I try to stay away from the meta.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 27 January 2016 - 06:38 AM.