106 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

KinLuu, on 27 January 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

No, it is not.

3.0 w/l ratio is what I consider better than average. Besides - you can not really calculate averages from 30 something games.

3.0 WLR is ridiculously high. You have to be playing group queue and stomping a lot to get ratios that high.

Actual data to the rescue: https://mwomercs.com...-stats-results/

(yes, 200 players seems like a pretty small sample size, but try doing better yourself, it's a lot of work. =P )

The average Tier 1 player had a 1.60 WLR.
The average Tier 2 player had a 1.25 WLR.

Only 1% of the sample had a WLR of 3.0 or higher.

"Ah, but I meant WLR for mechs, not overall WLR you idiot!"

Taking a lot at the data on MechStats, only 8.5% of owned mech variants have a WLR of 3.0 or higher. The average mech WLR on the site is 1.81. And for both my survey and MechStats, we pretty much miss out on data from the steering wheel underhive, which would drag our averages down a lot further. I consider 1.40 to be "above average".

Bishop Steiner, on 27 January 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

One should be averaging a kill for every 200 dmg to be "doing good". 250ish at worst. 150 or less if you want to be "comp".

Those are some extraordinarily lofty numbers. You're just making these up off the top of your head because nobody ever actually bothers to calculate these figures.

I'll share mine in case it helps. Eliminating mechs that I have fewer than 20 matches played:

Average damage/kill: 379.7
Lights: 354.4
Mediums: 452.1
Heavies: 386.6 (probably skewed by how much I play dual gauss Timberwolves)
Assaults: 461.2

Lowest damage/kill:
FS9-A: 256/1
LCT-1E: 277/1
ACH(cSPL): 278/1
ACH(cERML): 284/1

Highest damage/kill:
TBT-7M (LRM boat): 843/1
NVA (PPC poptart): 606/1
ADR (LRM boat): 565/1
GRF-3M (LRM boat): 547/1 (yes I know blasphemy -- back in the day I leveled this as a LRM boat and sold it in favour of the -1N instead for an SRM6 brawler)


Unsurprisingly, the only three mechs I ever LRM boated show up in my top four highest dmg/kill ratios.

Taking a quick look across the player stats from my unit's spreadsheets, our best player has an average dmg/kill of 350.7.

[jss78]

A lot of over-analyzing in this thread.

W/L is the bottom line. Assuming you're playing solo queue (i.e. random teams, as opposed to playing in a great or bad team all the time), >1 W/L means you're helping, <1 means you're not helping. In the long run, with random teams, you're going to win and lose 50-50. If you're not, then it's because of you and whatever it is that you did -- be it PPFLD meta builds, scouting or lurm-boating.

While I'd prefer to see numbers across more than 30 games, to me the OP has shown that an assault LRM boat, in the right hands, is easily good enough to carry at Tier 2. What we don't know is whether he would've done even better in another mech.

[adamts01]

TexAce, on 27 January 2016 - 06:32 AM, said:

LRMs are a supression weapon in my eyes, not particularly a killing weapon.

They do supression really well, even in Tier 2, so yeah, they are viable. If the team is for winning the match and not per se for killing all the enemies, then its good to have LRM boats with you.

Tier 1 is absolutely full of bad players who either found a loophole to get placed above their skill level or simply put in enough hours to get there. Plus you yourself fight against some tier 4s who just started playing a week ago. Saying a weapon or tactic is "viable" because it works in tier 1 or 2 games is't too solid an argument.

[Mechteric]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

PS: I do not think LRMs in MWO are well balanced, by the way. I think the missile lock mechanism needs to be redesigned to put more emphasis on aiming skills, and then you can increase missile speed and make LRMs good weapons for comp teams too. Right now, you need almost zero aiming skills, you only need a good sense of tactics and positioning to do well with LRMs. But that's a discussion for another time.

Personally to fix the perceived issues I think all they need to do is to not allow indirect LRM locks, unless one of the following conditions are true:

• The target is NARC'd.
  
• The target is TAG'd.
  
• The spotting mech has a C3 slave and the LRM mech has a C3 master (of course, they need to add the C3 slave as an actual item in the game first). Or maybe would be better to introduce the C3i early (Improved C3 Computer, 3062), since they don't need a master/slave type mixture to keep this game simpler.

I think this would go a long way toward proper balance of the weapon.

[Tarogato]

adamts01, on 27 January 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

kdr might be the most worthless stat in the game. OP pretty much proved that by showing it isn't related to winning. It's all about the wins, and 1.7 w/l is respectable.

Actually........ KDR typically correlates pretty danged well with WLR.



R² = 0.47

[mogs01gt]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

Math op!

good post!

[sycocys]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

Crazy inefficient 567-to-1 damage/kill ratio.

Wow and I thought my purposefully stripping enemies down with 3-400 damage/kill was inefficient.

-- Allistair, how is this more efficient than running ppfld and netting 200k+ without premium time even on losses?

[adamts01]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Actually........ KDR typically correlates pretty danged well with WLR.

For you and your specific playstyle, yes it does. OP clearly has contradicting evidence. You know better than to make that claim with only one test subject don't you?

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 06:36 AM, said:

Those are some extraordinarily lofty numbers. You're just making these up off the top of your head because nobody ever actually bothers to calculate these figures.

It's based off how many CT points it takes to kill an average mech. So there is a science behind it. If everyone on your team shoots perfectly and equally contributes, everyone should rack up 200-300 damage.

[sycocys]

adamts01, on 27 January 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

It's based off how many CT points it takes to kill an average mech. So there is a science behind it. If everyone on your team shoots perfectly and equally contributes, everyone should rack up 200-300 damage.

This just depends on how many Atlas's are on the other side. XD

[Fais]

I do think that W/L ratio has gone up for LRM boats because of the new map. Polar is very LRM friendly for a large slow LRM boat. Other maps can be much more difficult to play on. We have been seeing a lot of Polar recently.

[MrMadguy]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 06:34 AM, said:

I just think a lot of people are missing this side of the argument because they either don't play enough in the solo queue or because they play strictly meta builds with laservomit. I mean, People who fancy themselves 'elite' and only play laservomit will always claim that almost any other build is crap and in a sense they will be right, because laservomit is overwhelmingly powerful in MWO, for a number of reasons.

But a lot of people also tend to play more in high level group queue matches or CW, and they think that just because LRM boats are ineffective under those circumstances, LRM boats are always ineffective. But this is blatantly false. For the average player with average opposition, LRM boats can be very good within certain parameters. Especially for farming C-bills and increasing PSR.

It's certainly possible that I would do even better if I only played Thunderbolts and Banshees (or whatever the kids are doing these days) with lasers. But that's kind of besides the point.

I do play laservomit with my Black Knights sometimes. With over 400 matches played, their WLR is at about ~1.3 from only playing the solo queue. Much better KDR, of course. But they're not actually winning as many matches as my AWS-8R. Sadly, I don't have any proper metamechs to compare with, because I try to stay away from the meta.

I personally found only one case, in which LRM boat isn't effective - when you play in team of cowards, who can only hide for the whole match and wait, that someone another will win match for them. They just don't understand, that LRM is most effective, when rest of the team is pushing, preventing enemy team from taking cover and playing shotting gallery game. One LRM60 may stomp enemy team. All you have to do - is don't let enemy players hide. But team of cowards - is loss anyway, no matter what build you're playing in.

Edited by MrMadguy, 27 January 2016 - 06:58 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I'm half tempted to get my Catapult C1(F) back out with 2 LRM15s (or convert my MAD-3D) for LRM duty.

The bummer is, in my experience, people are starting to steer away from Polar Highlands. This is OK now because I am still grinding my Cicadas (with shortish range MLasers and MPLaser builds). However, once they are elited, I'll be ready for Polar Highlands and I'm afraid it might be tricky to get picked.

Tangent....

It's funny how Polar was made to appease the (we need bigger maps all MW4 style), and when we get it, it turns out to be less than popular. I'm sure people will tell me how Polar is always picked in their experiences, or how it doesn't deliver what they want. Regardless, I still chalk it up to the bipolar disorder that is this forums population lol.

"We want "X" not "Y", what the heck is this "X" crap, bring back "Y"! Lol. Not really complaining, just find it funny.

[Zoid]

People poo-pooing LRMs for having a poor damage/kill ratio don't know how they work. A GOOD pilot will spread damage. If you consistently die above 40 or 50%, you're bad. A constant barrage of LRMS accomplishes a few things.

-It suppresses the enemy team and forces them to remain near cover. Thus, if they try to focus fire one assault 'mech (as often happens when the tide of battle starts turning one way), they'll get heavily punished. Don't forget also that you don't know if there are 10 missiles coming at you or 200, so if you see that warning you need to get to cover immediately.

-It reduces the amount they can spread damage. Ok, so you did 200 LRM damage to an enemy but haven't blown off any parts. What this means is when your laser or ballistic allies hit that same target, now instead of just taking off some armor, they're taking off components. This is especially effective against clan 'mechs now. If you've managed to deal 30 LRM damage to a Timberwolf's side torso, it's now only one big alpha away from losing that side torso and being significantly less than half as effective as it was.

-It provides support anywhere on the battlefield (almost). Two evenly matched 'mechs fighting it out at 300m will be very happy to see LRM rain coming down on their targets.


The only time LRM boats end up being fairly bad is when the team itself is awful, but then nothing really does that well when half of your team manages to die in less than 2 minutes.

Finally, remember that the bad damage/kill ratio doesn't say much in puglandia because everyone wants those KBs, so as soon as a 'mech is cored you'll have a bunch of people descending on it like vultures. I've had plenty of games in my TBR or DWF where I've been nailing enemies left and right with full CT alphas but gotten very few kills, simply because someone else delivers the last 10 damage after I did 90 and my weapons are all on cooldown. It's one of the odd things about this game, being a good teammate and holding locks makes your KDR go down a lot of times because your entire team can see that red CT on your target and will try to steal that kill.

[mogs01gt]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 January 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

The bummer is, in my experience, people are starting to steer away from Polar Highlands. This is OK now because I am still grinding my Cicadas (with shortish range MLasers and MPLaser builds). However, once they are elited, I'll be ready for Polar Highlands and I'm afraid it might be tricky to get picked.

because it doesnt have enough cover to handle LRMs once UAVs and spotters are engaged. People would rather play frozen city which supports meta mechs.

[Tarogato]

adamts01, on 27 January 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

For you and your specific playstyle, yes it does. OP clearly has contradicting evidence. You know better than to make that claim with only one test subject don't you?

Actually that graph was made with data from 201 test subjects. Look at the thread I linked in that post. =P


BUT, since you did bring up the matter of one test subject, here is the correlation for my own personal mechs:




Look at that trendline, eh?

[Apocryph0n]

Zoid, on 27 January 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

-It suppresses the enemy team and forces them to remain near cover.

And how would random damage that you can mostly avoid in most cases be better at suppression than Direct-Fire-Alphas of 50+ Points of damage that hit you from 600+m away?

There is a reason why the high-class-play and competetive matches see no LRMs, because they're far worse than most direct fire options, even at "suppression".

[Novakaine]

Damn me mechbro stop givin away our secret!
Although I tend to run 2 LRM/15's, 2ML's and a six pack,
Awesome!!!!!!
Damn now I'm doing it.
On a side note smart teams know the value of a boat or two.
Anyone saying otherwise is simply obtuse.

Edited by Novakaine, 27 January 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[Jehofi]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Actually........ KDR typically correlates pretty danged well with WLR.

R² = 0.47

Well duh more kills -> higher chance of winning, OFC it correlates. with R² < 0.5 correlation is not so high (except for Psycology ) so "pretty danged well" is pretty danged incorrect. But im on your side this correlation is not coincidental.

I think DMG to wins would have a far better correlation.

Edited by Jehofi, 27 January 2016 - 07:28 AM.

[adamts01]

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Actually that graph was made with data from 201 test subjects. Look at the thread I linked in that post. =P

Fair enough. As long as you don't think k/d = w/l as a rule. It isn't the case for OP's mech and isn't the case in many of mine.

[Lykaon]

XX Sulla XX, on 27 January 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

Its not so much about being terrible its just most people would RATHER have a better direct fire mech than an LRM boat standing in back not taking its share of damage until the game is over. They would rather have a mech putting all of its damage on the open spot on the mech they call out. The would rather have some one on the high ground with them instantly punishing any mech that peeks with targeted direct damage.

Just think about one part of this. When peaking if you outnumber the peakers on the other side and call targets better you win. The LRM boat does not help that. They can peak get the shots off and get back into cover before missiles are even close to them most of the time.

Another aspect is just tanking damage. If your say Atlas is up front it can tank a HUGE amount of damage. It can keep other players alive and firing much longer. It increases your entire teams damage output if used correctly.

Much of the value of a well piloted LRM support mech is difficult to quantify because there are no end of match awards or score for area denial and suppression fire and causing massive cockpit shake reducing the accuracy of the enemy.

Having an LRM boat covering a wheeling flank may very well keep the enemy mechs in cover long enough to avoid the NASCAR from catching your trailing mechs of the wheel. Or keep an area to dangerous to cross therefore limiting the options the enemy has to make an approach.Fewer lanes of approach directly translates to higher volume of concentrated firepower for the defenders. The trick to strong tactical LRM use is fluidity.The LRM carrier needs to be where it's needed and the team needs to react appropriatley to openings granted by the LRM support.

And that is why LRMs are unpopular. It's actually hard to understand benifits that are not hard stats like damage per kill KDR or damage dealt.