63 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 28 January 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

A pretty large number of lights have to deal with sub-250 engines being crap, not just the Hankyu. The smaller the light mech, the worse the shafting gets. Slow lights are also smacked by it especially.

A few slower mediums like Vindis and BJs (most variants) also get hit by it.

Sub-250 engines not having all 10 heatsinks on the inside is one of those construction rules that sucks balls.



It's an Inner Sphere weapon that has been bad in Tabletop and PGI didn't care enough to make it viable for MWO.



If you think lights need to have skimpy hardpoint counts, I bet you'd crap your pants if the Piranha light mech got added...



It's still a crappy system.

Forget it. Some people adore fatties so much they don't want the little guy to pose any kind of threat, just be cannon fodder for them. Isn't that the attitude displayed for a while now by so many?

[sycocys]

AbsUserName, on 28 January 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

3- Hard point starvation (Commandos anyone?)

Commandos are a terrible example, they are freakin ninja mechs that don't require many hardpoints because they have ridiculous start/stop speeds and can change directions on a dime.

They didn't even need the structure buffs, but I'm not going to complain with being able to tank damage like 50-60 ton mech.

[Nauht]

Mystere, on 28 January 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Forget it. Some people adore fatties so much they don't want the little guy to pose any kind of threat, just be cannon fodder for them. Isn't that the attitude displayed for a while now by so many?

If you can't kill a fat assault with a light, you're a terribad light pilot. Git gud.

[Mystere]

Nauht, on 28 January 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you can't kill a fat assault with a light, you're a terribad light pilot. Git gud.

Who said I can't? You assume too much, fellow founder.

[Adiuvo]

Nauht, on 28 January 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you can't kill a fat assault with a light, you're a terribad light pilot. Git gud.

Maybe in the kiddie queue this is true, but anywhere else...

Lights got the short end of the stick on the most recent pass. The skill adjustment nerfs them more than anything else since it was percent based, they didn't receive meaningful quirks like every other weight class, and the whole design issue that's plagued the game since day one still is there.

[Mystere]

Nauht, on 28 January 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you can't kill a fat assault with a light, you're a terribad light pilot. Git gud.

Adiuvo, on 28 January 2016 - 03:36 PM, said:

Maybe in the kiddie queue this is true, but anywhere else...

<chuckles>

[Mcgral18]

Nauht, on 28 January 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you can't kill a fat assault with a light, you're a terribad light pilot. Git gud.

Brought to you by the magic of:

PUG LIFE

[AbsUserName]

The point in battletech is not the 1vs1. It's one atlas (100 ton) versus 4 commandos or 5 locusts (100 tons). Now imagine what happens with the atlas.

There's a reason for the global tendency of many more mediums and lights in the inner sphere armies (except Lyran, of course). Strength in numbers, as the metric was total tons, unlike MWO, where the metric is companies (12 mechs).

Khobai, on 28 January 2016 - 03:07 PM, said:

light mechs are supposed to be bad. theyre bad in tabletop too.

whats bad is people thinking lights were ever supposed to be good.

im not saying lights shouldnt have an important role to play in the game. by all means they should. but that role should not be combat and no one should ever expect a light to beat an assault 1v1. thats dumb. Scouting/electronic warfare should be a crucial role and sadly its not.

game also needs a ticket based respawn system so it can cost mechs appropriately based on their tonnage. when mechs die your team should lose tickets equal to the mech's tonnage. that makes the death of light mechs worth less than assault mechs which is how it should be.

[Mystere]

AbsUserName, on 28 January 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

The point in battletech is not the 1vs1. It's one atlas (100 ton) versus 4 commandos or 5 locusts (100 tons). Now imagine what happens with the atlas.

There's a reason for the global tendency of many more mediums and lights in the inner sphere armies (except Lyran, of course). Strength in numbers, as the metric was total tons, unlike MWO, where the metric is companies (12 mechs).

Even for the Clans. Argh!

[Khobai]

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The weight class imbalances in TT were because of a few reasons:

1. Because TT was played primarily by old men who like their games to be "real war," and "real war" is not balanced in any way...or fun for that matter.

Battletech was played mostly by college kids when it first game out. Although theyre old men NOW.

But tabletop aside, look at the other mechwarrior games, light mechs have always been worse than assault mechs. MWO is the first game in the franchise to try and equalize them. And its always been the wrong approach. Lights should be worse than assaults at combat. But there should be other roles in the game besides combat like scouting/electronic warfare that still make lights/mediums important to have on your team.

Quote

2. TT allows team setups to be asymmetric in numbers, meaning that you could have a small group of elite units or a large group of cannon fodder. In MWO, both teams are hardlocked to 12 players, which means this approach is impossible.

Nope its not impossible with the implementation of ticket-based respawns; when a mech dies your team loses tickets equal to the mech's tonnage. That inherently makes light mechs worth less than assault mechs which is how it should be.

And for one-life gamemodes you'd simply have a preloading screen for each game, allow players to change mechs during the preloading screen, and in order for the game to launch both teams have to have balanced tonnage.

And there should be actual role warfare so other roles like scouting/electronic warfare are useful enough that taking lights/mediums instead of just all heavies/assaults is worthwhile for both teams.

Quote

3. Also, TT let you control multiple units at the same time. This means that if one of your cheapo units died, it wasn't a big deal because you could have a whole army left over. But in this game, every player only gets a single unit at a time, so having each individual unit not suck popsickles is a lot more important.

I've already explained how to translate that to MWO: ticket based respawns. When a mech dies your team loses tickets equal to the dead mech's tonnage. So cost lights less than assaults. And then you pick a new mech to respawn in. Simple.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2016 - 04:17 PM.

[Deathlike]

Maybe Paul got a visit from the 3-second Jenner....

There's no place on that doll that hasn't been... touched.

[Adiuvo]

AbsUserName, on 28 January 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

The point in battletech is not the 1vs1. It's one atlas (100 ton) versus 4 commandos or 5 locusts (100 tons). Now imagine what happens with the atlas.

There's a reason for the global tendency of many more mediums and lights in the inner sphere armies (except Lyran, of course). Strength in numbers, as the metric was total tons, unlike MWO, where the metric is companies (12 mechs).

This also makes a very poor game when you control single units.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 28 January 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

Maybe Paul got a visit from the 3-second Jenner....

There's no place on that doll that hasn't been... touched.

The 6 MG Spider also touched him in the same places.

[Deathlike]

Adiuvo, on 28 January 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

This also makes a very poor game when you control single units.

One mech actually has to carry its weight.

There's enough sub-200 damage assaults (or bigger mechs in general) that are commonly seen in PUG Life™.

[Mystere]

Adiuvo, on 28 January 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

This also makes a very poor game when you control single units.

For the "supposed to be temporary but is now a main game feature" Quick Play, maybe it is.

But for Community Warfare (where you get a drop deck) and open-to-all-takers Solaris (where you live and die by what you bring), it is not.

[Adiuvo]

Mystere, on 28 January 2016 - 04:12 PM, said:

For the "supposed to be temporary but is now a main game feature" Quick Play, maybe it is.

But for Community Warfare (where you get a drop deck) and open-to-all-takers Solaris (where you live and die by what you bring), it is not.

I could see the argument for CW, but if you do that in Solaris there's zero point to take anything besides a heavy. That's pretty dumb.

There's also the issue of having a minimum of 2 sets of balance numbers and design, likely 3.

[Khobai]

Quote

This also makes a very poor game when you control single units.

Not really. It worked perfectly fine for MWLL. In MWLL lights were weaker but cost less and assaults were stronger but cost more. MWLL used a system akin to ticket based respawn and it worked brilliantly.

Quote

I could see the argument for CW, but if you do that in Solaris there's zero point to take anything besides a heavy. That's pretty dumb.

Um middleweight boxers dont fight heavyweight boxers. Lights, mediums, heavies, assaults would all have their own seperate ladders in Solaris for 1v1.

And for 2v2 or 4v4 Solaris matches, you could simply impose tonnage limits or a rule like no more than 1 of each weight class.

Plus if you implemented proper role warfare there would be certain things lights and mediums could do, even in solaris, that heavies and assaults couldnt.

Edited by Khobai, 28 January 2016 - 04:27 PM.

[AbsUserName]

Sure, in quick play.

But in CW, an unlimited drop deck would add depth to the game.

Suppose a 200 ton drop. You could go 2 atlas/dire wolf, or 10 locusts, or 4 hunchbacks, or 2 crow + 2 shadow cat.

Adiuvo, on 28 January 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

This also makes a very poor game when you control single units.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 28 January 2016 - 04:19 PM, said:

Not really. It worked perfectly fine for MWLL. In MWLL lights were weaker but cost less and assaults were stronger but cost more.

MWLL also made you have to earn your money during the match, and you lost all your cash when you died. You had to live for a while and score decently to get up to an assault. MWO lets you start with an assault every single match for free after you buy the mech once.

MWLL also reset your cash at the beginning of every single match, while MWO has permanent and persistent money. If MWLL let you carry money between matches, it would have broken the crap out of that system.

[Mystere]

Adiuvo, on 28 January 2016 - 04:15 PM, said:

I could see the argument for CW, but if you do that in Solaris there's zero point to take anything besides a heavy. That's pretty dumb.

I do not see the problem in a winner-takes-all no-holds-barred last-man-standing 24+ furball Solaris mode.