31 replies to this topic

[TyphonCh]

Yea, I said it. Blasphemy.
After reading endless opinions about LRMs needing 'nerfs'... I can't help but laugh. They are single handedly the most nerfed weapon system in the game. As a result, they are highly regarded as one of the worst weapons in the game, trailing closely behind the machine gun and flamer.

Pathetically slow projectile speed, unreliable spread damage, ammo reliant, heavy, radar deprivation module makes it even harder to hold a lock, easily mitigated by AMS and ECM.... Hell, even standing behind a rock renders it useless. The list goes on.

They're almost completely negligible at ranges over 600m (Most engagements are within 600m) because the missiles travel so slowly, you can literally set your throttle to %40 and walk to the nearest cover and take minimal damage. Range modules aren't worth the c-bills because of the above.
LRMs can be effective with a good spotter/NARC or aggressive self spotting and catching an enemy in the open, but that's few and far between on most maps. And the problem with playing aggressively with LRM's is that you're easily out dps'd by anything with direct fire. You have to stare your target down to hold a lock. And any smart team that see's an LRM boat grabbing it's own targets gets focused pretty damn quick.
IMO, that missile velocity nerf was the nail in the coffin.

What I'd like to see is that velocity returned, plus another %10 through upgrading to Artemis. That at least would help justify the upgrade. It's not at all overpowered.

EDIT: While we're at it, lets get rid of that ignorant invisible buff to streaks when equipping Artemis. IS pretty much doesn't benefit at all because SSRM2's suck ***

For comic relief, here's a quick strip to anyone that thinks that LRM's are 'breaking the game'!!!!!

Spoiler

Edited by Team Chevy86, 29 January 2016 - 09:52 AM.

[adamts01]

I think they whole weapon needs a re-work, not a little tinkering. I agree though, until a weapon is an option in top level play, it needs some attention.

[Glaucon]

Just make it fire and forget.

[TyphonCh]

Glaucon, on 29 January 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

Just make it fire and forget.

What, just fire it randomly into the sky and they seek their own targets?
We can't even have switchable ammo types. Bad suggestion. NEXT

Edited by Team Chevy86, 29 January 2016 - 09:51 AM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

The entire lock-on as well as flight angle mechanic needs to be reworked, almost entirely.

Radar Deprevation also needs to be a big part of the discussion when it comes to LRMs.

IMO, it needs to be weighted equipment and no longer the single most valuable Module in the game, it is equally as valuable as ECM, but weighs nothing, costs no slots, its too much.

Edited by Mister D, 29 January 2016 - 02:02 AM.

[Donnybrook]

The problem is that LRMs encourage poor playstyles in Quick Play. You know who I'm talking about: those assault mechs that hug the back line, not tanking at all, and uselessly lobbing LRMs without any sort of skill.

Not sure how to combat that, to be honest.

(P.S. Those of you that do know how to LRM, not talking about you. )

[Wolfways]

adamts01, on 29 January 2016 - 12:45 AM, said:

I think they whole weapon needs a re-work, not a little tinkering. I agree though, until a weapon is an option in top level play, it needs some attention.

Never going to happen as the missiles would need to have the same speed as AC projectiles. In fact they would have to be faster because of the arc.
Any weapon that can be avoided by walking behind terrain (after the weapon is fired) will never be a good weapon. That's why, imo, the incoming missiles warning should be removed. At least then there's the chance of hitting targets at the weapons intended range...long. Once a salvo hits you then you know to get to cover.

And ECM still needs fixed.

Edited by Wolfways, 29 January 2016 - 02:04 AM.

[adamts01]

Team Chevy86, on 29 January 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

What, just fire it randomly into the sky and they seek their own targets?
We can't even have switchable ammo types. Bad suggestion. NEXT

Do some research on "fire and forget" missiles, then come back.

Mister D, on 29 January 2016 - 01:46 AM, said:

Radar Deprevation also needs to be a big part of the discussion when it comes to LRMs.
IMO, it needs to be weighted equipment and no longer the single most valuable Module in the game.

That's a very good point. It's impossible to balance the weapon when half the mechs are immune(radar dep/ECM).

Garrick Kael, on 29 January 2016 - 01:58 AM, said:

The problem is that LRMs encourage poor playstyles in Quick Play. You know who I'm talking about: those assault mechs that hug the back line, not tanking at all, and uselessly lobbing LRMs without any sort of skill.
Not sure how to combat that, to be honest.

Part of my idea is making each missile much more powerful and accurate, to balance this ammo would be 40/ton or less. This eliminates the spray & pray mentality we see so often. I like the idea of indirect fire, this game would be so boring if everything was direct fire, but you'd really need to trust your spotter if you only had a few salvos at your disposal.

[patataman]

I would love to be able to switch between different trajectories. The current one, and a flat trajectory. (very useful for underground areas)

Another thing i'd change is the effect for IS lrm's when fired inside the min range. Add some screen shake for the target, while keeping the 0 damage under 180m.

[Alistair Winter]

Needs to be redesigned to be equally effective at all levels of play. Not just OP in the underhive and useless in comp matches.

[adamts01]

Wolfways, on 29 January 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:

Never going to happen as the missiles would need to have the same speed as AC projectiles. In fact they would have to be faster because of the arc.
Any weapon that can be avoided by walking behind terrain (after the weapon is fired) will never be a good weapon. That's why, imo, the incoming missiles warning should be removed. At least then there's the chance of hitting targets at the weapons intended range...long. Once a salvo hits you then you know to get to cover.

And ECM still needs fixed.

If ECM ever gets the change PGI has been talking about, and radar dep is changed, the only way to avoid those missiles is by side poking. If LRMs could change firing angle based on terrain, so they could possibly be used indoors, then side poking is the only counter. I'm fine with that, every weapon needs something it's bad at. Plus, only so many mechs can fit side by side in some firing lines, a second line behind the first, firing over their allies, could be very advantageous.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

How about using the Command Map for something other than pointing? Use it to mark a location for area bombardment, which acts like a wide-area lock-on point in which LRMs can randomly hit things in a circle. We might need to reintroduce AoE damage for this, though, and we know how that went last time...-cough- SRM headshot -cough-

[Rushin Roulette]

Glaucon, on 29 January 2016 - 12:50 AM, said:

Just make it fire and forget.

Team Chevy86, on 29 January 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

What, just fire it randomly into the sky and they seek their own targets?
We can't even have switchable ammo types. Bad suggestion. NEXT

I think he means get a lock, fire them and then forget them, the LRMS will then continue homing in directly on the target using the most direct path. No need to continue holding lock until they hit... at some point in the future when they arrive and you have finished your coffee (ok... slight overexageration there, but you get the idea).

This might actually be a good solution to increase their effectiveness. One major problem with the LRMs (apart from the slow speed) is that you had to facetank your opponent the whole time until they hit. If you try to torsotwist damage away like you automatically do with any other weapon after firing, then you have a high risk of missing a moving target unless you are really close to the border of minimum range.

This way the opponent can still move behind cover (the direct path should cover that... if there is an obstruction it will still hit that), but the LRM player can himself use cover himself against return fire.

[Wolfways]

adamts01, on 29 January 2016 - 02:12 AM, said:

If ECM ever gets the change PGI has been talking about, and radar dep is changed

What? What did I miss? What did pgi say? Link please? I need to know!!!!!!!!!

[iLLcapitan]

It's really a thin line when it comes to LRMs. I don't hate them, they were always part of the BT universe. But as others stated, you can't make a indirect fire weapon too powerful in an FPS. It should be rewarded to take risks for your team, share damage, be up front.
On certain maps, you still are able to ruin somebody's day, without having seen your opponent once - esp. if somebody is NARCing.

Edited by iLLcapitan, 29 January 2016 - 02:30 AM.

[Wolfways]

adamts01, on 29 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

Part of my idea is making each missile much more powerful and accurate, to balance this ammo would be 40/ton or less. This eliminates the spray & pray mentality we see so often. I like the idea of indirect fire, this game would be so boring if everything was direct fire, but you'd really need to trust your spotter if you only had a few salvos at your disposal.

No... If you cut the ammo/ton you just force LRM's to be boated even more because having to dedicate more tonnage to ammo will make LRM's as a support weapon just not worth it. If anything all ballistic and missile ammo counts need increased.

[TheCharlatan]

Let's analyze LRMs (how they are supposed to be in TT): they are long range weapons used to soften up targets. Basically support weapons.
Problems with LRMs in MWO:

• They can fire indirectly. This is what kills newbies: they often go out of position, and if they get spotted, all LRM boats can focus them down (even if said LRM boats are just as out of position).
  
• They are too slow to be used directly against a mech 1v1 (he alphas you CT, you shoot your LRMs. He backs off into cover, your shots hit nothing). Radar Derp is a hard counter against LRMs in a 1v1. This (and minimum range) is what keeps them from being used in most comp teams: they lack reliability in all situations.
  
• They spread damage all over the place. Never can be good when people can insta-core most mediums with a single well aimed alpha. Also, you have absolutely no control on the LRM spread. Even weapons like SRMs and LBXs can be used with reduced spread (you just need to go VERY close). All you can do with LRMs is position correctly and hit the more vulnerable side.

Possible way to fix LRMs:

• No more indirect fire without specific equipment like NARC (and maybe C3 computers?)
  
• Way faster lock and missile velocity. I mean like 50-75% faster, with a much more direct trajectory.
  
• LRMs converge on the location you lock them on, and spread is tighter than now (10-20% tighter?). You lock onto the CT, they converge on the CT, and so on. Enemy paper-doll will flash to show where you have locked.

Just my 2 cents.

Edited by TheCharlatan, 29 January 2016 - 02:46 AM.

[Squirg]

imo all they really need to do is remove the incoming missile warning or make it so only mechs with BAP or something get it, and also improve LRM projectile speed.

Any real reworking of the weapon also requires basically all of the information systems to be reworked on top of a mechanical change for LRMs itself. It's simply not going to happen in any forseeable timeframe.

[Galenit]

LRMS need for sure some changes,
here are some suggestions:

- All launchers have the same spread (around 10m) (making big launchers better then small launchers)
- Firing more then one more launcher at the same time increases the spread (around 5m) of all launchers
- LRMs have a little more speed
- increase locktime by 25%

- ecm increases locktime 50% and spread 50% (for all mechs in its range that goes up to 150) and reduces radarrange of the enemy on the mechs in the bubble by 250m (no magic jesus box)
- radar derp incerases locktime 25% and spread 25%.
- bap counters all ecm in 200m and makes powered down mechs lockable and gives 250m more radarrange (maybe reducing targetdoll time by 25%?)

. artemis (needs los!) reduces locktime 50% and spread 50%
- tag reduces locktime and spread by50%
- narc counters the ecm effect on a mech effected by ecm, it turns off the ecm on a ecm mech for the time, it turns of the radar derp effect on a rd using mech. It also makes the target lock-able and visible on the radar.

- ams will target the most far salvo first to maximize the effect and counter overwhelming with lots of small launchers. Maybe a little more tweaking, but only after testing the new mentioned code above.

The lrms will have near pinpoint damage (5m its not that pinpoint, but ok)) and lock if fired with los, artemis and tag and narc against a unshilded mech. Fire 3 lauchers indirect at a rd mech in a emc bubble and you will splatter over an area (20m radius) maybe hitting more then one mech but only with few missiles hitting anyone.


I used only some fast example numbers, for sure it needs more tweaking with the numbers to balance it.

Edited by Galenit, 29 January 2016 - 03:19 AM.

[adamts01]

Wolfways, on 29 January 2016 - 02:31 AM, said:

No... If you cut the ammo/ton you just force LRM's to be boated even more because having to dedicate more tonnage to ammo will make LRM's as a support weapon just not worth it. If anything all ballistic and missile ammo counts need increased.

I'm proposing making them more powerful while limiting ammo/ton. Damage/ton would stay the same, this would just make the shot you take be more valuable. Much of the hate that LRM boats receive is due to players sitting in the back and just LRMing away. If my proposal was implemented, those LRMers would have to really trust their scouts and/or get their own locks. Same damage, more thought/skill would be required.

Wolfways, on 29 January 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

What? What did I miss? What did pgi say? Link please? I need to know!!!!!!!!!

It was from their info warfare testing from a while back. It didn't make the cut, but they said it was still in the works and something the definitely want to implement in the future. ECM would no longer be a hard counter to locks, it would just slow down targeting considerably. Another part of their proposal involved a mech's signature radius, smaller mechs would take longer to lock on to vs larger mechs. One of the other big things was varying sensor strength depending on chassis, this one was hotly debated. I hope all of this makes it in to the game eventually, in some form at least.