135 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

Pardo Kerensky, on 30 January 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

Its because of pathetic IS ******* crybabies like you that clans got screwed over and IS overbuffed to the point clan CW is unplayable and the game is completely broken.
Get ******, you, the Inner Sphere and your ******* quirks.
Goddamn ******** who cant win unless they are in overpowered mechs.
Get good or get GONE (preferably the latter).

clans have been saying IS is op from wave 1 mechs coming out. I still remember how OP God like my dire was on day 1 haha Summoner was still crap but atleast it could jump.

[Deathlike]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

IS ERLL (Default Duration): 0.72 damage every 0.1s
Clan ERLL (Default Duration): 0.73 damage every 0.1s
Clan Advantage = 0.01 damage for every 0.1s held on target.

RVN-4X w/ -30% laser duration: 1.03 damage every 0.1s
QKD-5K w/ -10% laser duration: 0.8 damage every 0.1s

The SHC has the best laser duration quirks for the Clans, with the total potential of a whopping 5% reduction off the CERLL. Let's see how that stacks up, eh?

SHC w/ -5% laser duration: 0.77 damage every 0.1s

So there you have it. No matter what Clan mech you face, as long as you have any IS mech with at least a -10% laser duration quirk, you are going to do more damage every 0.1s you hold your lasers on target, assuming you're firing an equal number of ERLL on each side.

You get to keep the energy cooldown, energy heat generation, laser duration, structure, and agility quirks on pretty much every mech that has them. You will literally still hold the advantage in long range because of this.

The only thing that's changed is you'll no longer have a 200m+ advantage over the CERLL's max range on top of the dmg/0.1s advantage you already have for the majority of long range IS mechs.

Sheesh, talk about having the cake and wanting to eat it too.

Are we sure that's the best one in question? I mean, this is the Shadowcat we're talking about. It's still bad.

The Cute Fox Kitfox-S's arm is a 6% total duration quirk for CERLL (3% is the general quirk, 3% CERLL specific).

The Badder Adder-D's left arm is a 6% generic laser duration quirk.

The Ice Fridge Ice Ferret has a 3% ER laser quirk for the CT Energy variants, with the Ice Ferret-D having 4% duration total for Pulse Lasers (assuming you pick up the paired omnipod with the pulse laser quirk).

The Nope-va Nova-B's left arm has a 6% Pulse Laser quirk in total (3% is generic, the other is pulse laser specific). Note that this is a 1E arm....

The Suckoner Summoner-C's left arm has a 6% generic laser duration quirk.


The commonality of these quirks is that they are on all of the existing and still terribad Clan mechs. (How the Mist Lynx escapes any of these benefits is beyond my understanding of Paul.)


It is what it is... let the Dartboard of Balance™ work its RNGesus like magic... as usual.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 January 2016 - 04:25 PM.

[Herr Vorragend]

Terrorsdawn, on 29 January 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

When I buy a product, (yes each mech, mech pack or bundle we buy is a product) we buy it for certain reasons. To have the people that sold it to us decide they want to screw with it, change it or modify it, they are changing the product.

As it stands now there is no reason to buy anything PGI is selling. All mechs will run the same basic builds. There is no spice or flavor left to draw me in to purchasing any more mechs from PGI. If we stop buying wieners maybe we can get some steaks put on the shelf.

First...read the TOS. You will find a passage in which clearly is stated, that some things may be changed for i.e. balancing.

Balancing is not a simple thing and it can´t be done in a matter of patches. There will always be balancing changes. It´s a process!
May I ask the OP in which tier he is playing in? As a player that owns almost every mech I can compare directly. Have you tried surviving AND contributing in a mist lynx? Do you totally rock in a summoner? What about Mr. Gargles?

I´ve been part of so many balancing attempts and imho PGI is getting things right and more right. Step by step. Let´s see how the new changes will work and talk afterwards.

[MauttyKoray]

Deathlike, on 30 January 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Are we sure that's the best one in question? I mean, this is the Shadowcat we're talking about. It's still bad.

The Cute Fox Kitfox-S's arm is a 6% total duration quirk for CERLL (3% is the general quirk, 3% CERLL specific).

The Badder Adder-D's left arm is a 6% generic laser duration quirk.

The Ice Fridge Ice Ferret has a 3% ER laser quirk for the CT Energy variants, with the Ice Ferret-D having 4% duration total for Pulse Lasers (assuming you pick up the paired omnipod with the pulse laser quirk).

The Nope-va Nova-B's left arm has a 6% Pulse Laser quirk in total (3% is generic, the other is pulse laser specific). Note that this is a 1E arm....

The Suckoner Summoner-C's left arm has a 6% generic laser duration quirk.


The commonality of these quirks is that they are on all of the existing and still terribad Clan mechs. (How the Mist Lynx escapes any of these benefits is beyond my understanding of Paul.)


It is what it is... let the Dartboard of Balance™ work its RNGesus like magic... as usual.

All of the underperforming Clan Mechs are supposedly getting a new quirk pass...FINALLY.

[Aresye]

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

Well unless it's a medium laser than 10% duration is about the same but is still out ranged with 25% quirks. So yes there is balance issue with weapons on both sides and blanket nerfs aren't fixing it.

The problem is you can't buff the IS small and medium class lasers with general energy range quirks without giving them an absurd range advantage with the ERLL. That's the problem, and that's why the energy range quirks are being lowered. If medium and small class laser ranges are a problem for IS, then PGI needs to address those weapons specifically.

This isn't a blanket nerf either. You said it yourself the medium laser is still out ranged with 25% quirks, because general energy range quirks are dependent on the base stats of the weapon, so a medium laser might only get a 50m boost while the ERLL gets a 200m boost. Lowering the energy range quirks to 10% will bring the IS ERLL pretty close to the exact same ranges as the CERLL, although they'll still get to keep the advantage in duration, heat gen, ghost heat, cooldown, and damage per tick.

[MischiefSC]

Almost like quirks are a **** substitute for balance.

Has anyone considered. .. you know. Balancing the tech then using quirks to pull up ugly/lonely/disadvantaged robbits?

[Reza Malin]

TheCharlatan, on 30 January 2016 - 02:07 AM, said:

Someone understood if the 10% limit is to "energy weapons" quirks or to the combined quirks like 10% range+10% medium laser range? I don't care about the nerf in itself (i don't even use ER-LL on most mechs), but some bad mechs get a lot of mileage out of 20% medium laser range (10%+10%).

This is what bothers me. There is nothing that tries to offset the range disparity between clans and IS apart from the medium lasers buffs acquired from energy range buffs. I don't give a damn about ERLL to be honest, i rarely engage over 400m, but these medium lasers are literally the mainstay of a lot of my mechs. I am sure i am not alone.

If they nerf them too much, we will be heading back to the days of clan superiority. Where all the peasants drive round in IS mechs as target practice for the clan Lords in their clan mechs, with their clan superiority weirdness. Aff, neg, yawwwwwwwwn.

Half the problem with clanners whining is nothing to do with a majority of other IS mechs anyway, i seriously don't understand why they just dont target the worst offenders and the obvious blackjack structure joke.

Saying like that strange person earlier, that removing quirks is just reducing a previous buff, needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Quirks might be previous buffs, but they were implemented for a reason. If you want to sound like a smartass fine, knock yourselves out. Without quirks though, IS would get beaten like a ginger step son, as in the days when clans first dropped.

Saying quirks was a buff is right yes, but it was a buff that was necessary due to the implementation of clans without any semblance of balance in the first place. I fear we are too far down the road now, for a complete redress so quirks need to be taken seriously as here to stay. They already tried once and just gave up.

I just don't get these IS purists who think they can survive without any quirked mechs. I remember back in the days when the only mechs that could compete were the pop tarting meta comp mechs like Dragon Slayers, Firestarters, Thunderbolts, Cataphracts etc etc, piloted by tryhard comp teams like Lords and 228th. I fear some people forget those times or weren't around for them.

I'm not saying a reduction in energy range is the return of this, but what i am saying is people being too laid back about these nerfs is not positive.

The main point is this: If there are certain mechs, abusing ERLL an LL quirks to have superior range to clans, then why not just nerf the offending chassis types only? A general IS energy range nerf just screams of a completely lazy knee jerk to me.

Edited by Fade Akira, 30 January 2016 - 05:11 PM.

[Deathlike]

MischiefSC, on 30 January 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Almost like quirks are a **** substitute for balance.

Has anyone considered. .. you know. Balancing the tech then using quirks to pull up ugly/lonely/disadvantaged robbits?

Lostech. It has yet to be rediscovered.

[Reza Malin]

Pardo Kerensky, on 30 January 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

Its because of pathetic IS ******* crybabies like you that clans got screwed over and IS overbuffed to the point clan CW is unplayable and the game is completely broken. Get ******, you, the Inner Sphere and your ******* quirks. Goddamn ******** who cant win unless they are in overpowered mechs. Get good or get GONE (preferably the latter).

Ha ha ha, this guy.......

Wants his OP clan mechs back like when clan 1 dropped. I was a clanner when clan 1 dropped and clans were so OP it was funny.

If you were clan....

Get a grip son.

[Thunder Child]

OP, your analogy is slightly flawed.
In the lore, the Clan Mechs would be the Sports Car, and the 3rd hand recycled duct-taped together IS mechs would be the Yaris.
But thank god this game has no founding in Lore, right?
Personally, I think Quirks should be used to bring lesser performing Chassis from BOTH sides up to Timberwolf level.
But they should NOT be used for faction balancing purposes.
Ideally, if we are going for the Asymmetric balance approach, Clans should have a vastly superior range, with slightly higher damage output, but have a much longer firing duration and higher heat.
Inner Sphere should have shorter ranges, but tighter stronger Burst output, slightly faster cooldowns, and lower heat production.

And both sides should have a major reduction in Heat Cap, but a slightly higher dissipation, so that players are less inclined to Alpha, and more inclined to fire controlled bursts.

My main concern for February is how they are going to further Nerf the Flamer. Seems like the only thing it was good for (blinding) is getting toned down, so unless it gets a hell of a DPS or HPS boost, it's still gonna suck.

Edited by Thunder Child, 30 January 2016 - 05:31 PM.

[J0anna]

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

So every clanner saying "our weapons are worse" are taking into account IS quirks now? Yes after you add in less heat ,durations and range you start to get loadouts that are balanced thais is the point.

I have not said that. I realized that PGI (correctly) is trying to balance the mechs themselves (because we fight with mechs, not individual weapons). The mechs need to be balanced. There are underperforming mechs on BOTH sides, the problem stems from the fact that there are fewer clan mechs to choose from and that CW forces you to choose mechs by weight, so their underperforming mechs tend to stand out more.

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

When you say remove all quirks because clan "burn time " is longer or "our heat is more" is not true.

Never said remove all quirks. Many freebirth mechs are very well balanced and I wouldn't change them. Some are over the top and need to be reigned in, some others still need some help. This balance move is about reigning in some of the OP ones and bringing up some of the clan underperformers, if you truly believe the Mist Lynx is OP you're not playing the same game I am.

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

People still don't take into account how most these mega quirked mechs have like 1 or 2 hardpoints. It's only a few with setups to even use them. So if these few are op nerf them. They're not clan mechs they don't have 10-13 energy hard points.

Here's my quick list of mechs effected by this range nerf, could easily have missed a couple, I'm going to assume you actually mean 1 or 2 energy hardpoints, since only 1 mech has only 2 hard points on this list....

AS7-RS - 7 hardpoints / 4E
AS7-BH - 8 hardpoints / 6E
BLR-1S - 8 hardpoints / 4E
HGN-HM - 7 hardpoints / 3E
HGN-732B - 7 hardpoints / 3E
ZEU-9S - 7 hardpoints / 6E
STK-3H - 8 hardpoints / 4E
BLR-1D - 8 hardpoints / 5E
AWS-PB - 6 hardpoints / 3E
AWS-8V - 7 hardpoints / 4E
AWS-8T - 7 hardpoints / 5E
AWS-8Q - 7 hardpoints / 7E

DGN-1N - 6 hardpoints / 2E*
QKD-4G - 6 hardpoints / 4E
QKD-4H - 7 hardpoints / 4E
QKD-5K - 7 hardpoints / 6E
QKD-IV - 6 hardpoints / 2E*
CPLT-C1 - 6 hardpoints / 4E
CPLT-C4 - 6 hardpoints / 2E*
CPLT-JS - 6 hardpoints / 6E
TDR-5S - 8 hardpoints / 4E
TDR-TD - 9 hardpoints / 9E
TDR-5SS - 7 hardpoints / 7E
GHR-5H - 8 hardpoints / 7E
GHR-5P - 8 hardpoints / 8E
WHM-6D - 9 hardpoints / 9E
WHM-BW - 9 hardpoints / 4E
BL-6-KNT - 8 hardpoints / 8E
BL-6B-KNT - 9 hardpoints / 9E
BL-7-KNT-L - 8 hardpoints / 8E

CDA-2A - 6 hardpoints / 6E
CDA-3M - 5 hardpoints / 4E
CDA-X5 - 6 hardpoints / 4E
BJ-1 - 6 hardpoints / 4E
BJ-1DC - 8 hardpoints / 6E
BJ-3 - 6 hardpoints / 6E
BJ-Arrow - 9 hardpoints / 3E
VND-StIve - 5 hardpoints / 3E
ENF-4R - 6 hardpoints / 5E
HBK-4G - 6 hardpoints / 3E
HBK-GI - 6 hardpoints / 3E
TBT-5N - 6 hardpoints / 4E
GRF-1S - 6 hardpoints / 4E
KTO-20 - 7 hardpoints / 4E
WVR-6K - 6 hardpoints / 5E
WVR-7K - 6 hardpoints / 3E

LCT-1E - 6 hardpoints / 6E
LCT-1M - 4 hardpoints / 2E*
LCT-1V - 5 hardpoints / 1E*
LCT-3S - 5 hardpoints / 1E*
LCT-3V - 4 hardpoints / 2E*
LCT-PB - 6 hardpoints / 4E
COM-1D - 4 hardpoints / 2E*
COM-DK - 4 hardpoints / 4E
SDR-5V - 2 hardpoints / 2E*
SDR-ANA - 5 hardpoints / 2E*
UM-R60L - 6 hardpoints / 4E
PNT-8Z - 5 hardpoints / 3E
RVN-4X - 5 hardpoints / 2E*
WLF-1 - 5 hardpoints / 5E

11 out of 60 doesn't seem like "most" to me.... Admittedly many of these do NOT need nerfs, lets hope PGI gives them specific energy range buffs to compensate. And in fairness, a good number of these 'nerfs' to range are like 5% (i.e. from 15% to 10%)

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

Most specific energy quirks were removed to genetic quirks ontop of most got a smaller nerf at the same time. Russ didn't want only quirk builds but sounds like he might be going back to just this.

Or PGI underestimated how the min/maxers would use generic range buffs. Looks like they've seen the error of their ways.

Look, I get that you want your freebirth mechs to have an "I Win" button, I do. Maybe someday you'll get your wish and every freebirth mech will get a consumable that kills all trueborn mechs, but if I were you, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Surprisingly a great many of us want a balanced game, and truth be told PGI has been getting quite a bit closer, they're not perfect (but besides you (at least in your febrile mind), who is?) so I'm willing to give this balance pass a try.

[Gyrok]

TercieI, on 30 January 2016 - 08:55 AM, said:

OP is Gyrok's IS alt?

Gyrok was not involved in this thread at all.

Besides...you should know how I feel about Clan vs. IS balance...it is plainly obvious I knew this was coming, and long ago foretold of the fall of the clans with continual blanket nerfs.

[MauttyKoray]

Holy crap, GUYS: BACK DOWN.

From the way Russ WORDED IT. The cap is only on the GENERAL QUIRK. To prevent 'energy/laser buffs' from causing super ranges on the larger weapons (PPC, CERLL, ERLL, LL, LPL) when trying to buff the range of ALL lasers. No clear info was given on it though so stop acting like its the death of lasers...

Please refer to this thread if you still don't understand:
Math Behind The Laser Quirk Change

Edited by MauttyKoray, 30 January 2016 - 07:18 PM.

[beerandasmoke]

Gyrok, on 30 January 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

Gyrok was not involved in this thread at all.

Besides...you should know how I feel about Clan vs. IS balance...it is plainly obvious I knew this was coming, and long ago foretold of the fall of the clans with continual blanket nerfs.

Clans are getting a massive buff so there is no judgement day. Unfortunately with the massive buff clans are getting it will lead to another nerf in the future. PGI needs to realize that small nerfs and buffs with testing is the way to go. These wild swings with the nerf bat confuse and anger the playerbase. No one likes getting builds broken every 2 to 3 months.

[Xenon Codex]

Terrorsdawn, on 29 January 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

Then in the same road map to tell us they are giving clan mech's improved targeting computers. .

This is really all I'm miffed about. The IS Command Console needs some love also. At least buff the CC proportionally with the clan TCs. The CC is already weaker than a MkIII TC (3 tons), now it's going to be even worse.

Presently the CC is a 3 ton "Target Info Gathering" module that nobody uses...I tried but 3 tons is a lot for such little reward.

[cSand]

Clammers who suck always gonna complain about how IS is OP

IS who suck are always gonna complain about clams OP

Players who suck always gonna complain about something OP


the wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'

[jaxjace]

Hit the Deck, on 30 January 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

Just buy all Mechs. That way, it's guaranteed that you will always some which are OP.

Emotionally attached to a Mech because of its quirks is a bit ridiculous so don't fall into the trap.

**** thats what I do.

[TercieI]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 04:56 PM, said:

The problem is you can't buff the IS small and medium class lasers with general energy range quirks without giving them an absurd range advantage with the ERLL.

I bet you can work around that easily enough, though. The TBT-5J has a "standard laser" quirk that I'm betting under the hood is just the list "SL, ML, LL." You could easily do a "non-large laser" quirk that's just the list SL, SPL, ML, MPL I actually think this would be a nice solution if ERLLs are the perceived problem.

Edited by TercieI, 30 January 2016 - 10:15 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Clammers who suck always gonna complain about how IS is OP

IS who suck are always gonna complain about clams OP

Players who suck always gonna complain about something OP

Um it has nothing to do with people sucking. And everything to do with the fact !@#$ wasnt balanced.

+25% IS range bonus != +10% advantage CERLL has over ISERLL

[MauttyKoray]

TercieI, on 30 January 2016 - 10:09 PM, said:

I bet you can work around that easily enough, though. The TBT-5J has a "standard laser" quirk that I'm betting under the hood is just the list "SL, ML, LL." You could easily do a "non-large laser" quirk that's just the list SL, SPL, ML, MPL I actually think this would be a nice solution if ERLLs are the perceived problem.

standard lasers are the IS SL, ML, and LL, not sure if it includes more.