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So...... Wolfhounds? What Went Wrong?


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#21 Beef Quake

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:37 PM

yeah, I would also guess its because the firestarter is perceived to be better in almost every way ( I like the laser placement though, and it can tilt its torso down a bit more). The wolf hound is indeed a blocky little mech, so yeah many find it ugly perhaps. that said once i got my WLF -2 elite-d it became a little murder machine. Posted Image Also I didn't have to rely on that jump-jet crutch (because everything is a crutch these days) Posted Image

Posted Image

I was actually carrying a lot of teams not just scavenging kills (though it's really good at that too) got my "ace of spades" in that mech.

View PostCion, on 02 February 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Let's see

-lack of jumpjets: check
-released too close to the Panther (and looks alike): check
-enourmous side torsos: check (XL deathtrap)
Posted Image
(stolen from hitbox localization thread)

Need I say more?


Oddly for some reason I find it more durable than the fire starter too. Maybe its because of what I like to call "Adder ECM" no one seems to prioritize you even though you are quite dangerous. Posted Image

Edited by Beef Quake, 02 February 2016 - 02:38 PM.


#22 Mad Porthos

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:37 PM

Hey Bishop. I see your question and I would hazard the reply that NOTHING actually went wrong with the Wolfhounds, hence you find yourself wondering why they were not massively adopted, abused and appreciated. Most other lights as they have come in over the past 3 years have been presaged by predictions of being DOA, unable to bring anything new to the table etc, etc. In many cases I think this put undue pressure on PGI to not make a mistake in either direction, but pushed them more in one direction or another with each successive pack, be it Phoenix, Clan Waves, Resistance Waves or even just the general tweaking process of each quirk pass... too much, then not enough, then different and never hitting any happy medium.

Wolfhounds manage to be one entry that has been consistently middling - no particular fanbase boosting it or detracting it before release, I think in part simply because it was both inner sphere and lacked jump jets when resistance 1 & 2 were being planned and executed. If the attention of the more vociferous meta players and comp teams had been on Inner Sphere Mechs and Resistance at in that period, they might have pushed the mech into having some more significant or even, dare I say OP Quirkening, agility buffs, yaw and pitch far better than any other humanoid mech... perhaps even nigh 360 twist light the sainted urbie. But no such pressure mounted to create a spectre of fear about performance of the wolfhound or even the panther, as a result they don't seem to have any obvious oddity or deviation, no special niche created to sooth fears of DOA-ness.

By and large I think those who often skew things one way or another at the time the wolfies were "gestating" were more concerned at their support or opposition of thunderbolts and concerns over the clan brands of mechs and what they wanted to see out of that flavor of upcoming mech goodness. If the resistance packs even caught their attentions, it was over the larger mechs and the insistence that none of them be the ppc gods that the thunderbolts appeared to be. Panther and Wolfhound seemed just the requisite light mechs to round each offering out and in each case something early on managed to shut theem out of discussion or campaigning for exceptional buffs or changes... limited hard points in panthers and no jump jets in wolfies just got a shrug and a DOA stamp from these, rather than a campaign because many more were spending their time demanding a fast CLAN LIGHT that didnt suck... and then rejoicing in it when they got the artic cheetah last summer.

But really, they dont suck. Not the slower ones, not the slightly faster one either. Jump jets are so very highly rated in some parts of the community, but many of the great old jenner pilots I once new ran few if any jump jets, not just because they were trying to maximize heat sinks and fire power, but because reliance on them could be a trap and get you into trouble, draw attention and REDUCE agility when you need it most. More jump jets could mean getting a greater height but also a longer period of consistent, predictable arc in the air. Landing also is/was associated with a split second of hesitation/immobility until you get some traction/acceleration and can start dodging again. So piloting a mech like the wolfhound can paradoxically make you less vulnerable and more manuverable, by eliminating the variable performance of jump jets and letting you simply focus on piloting and using terrain, rather than hopping over it all and playing at being an LAM.

Edited by Mad Porthos, 03 February 2016 - 06:18 AM.


#23 Chemie

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:38 PM

same hard points (B/M/E), same weapons, means that any new mech will often not bring anything new. A new meta mech only appears based off messed up hitboxes or a geometry or things like low arms (bad) or the unique hardpoints (rare now) and the right combination of JJ, engine size, endo, FF (in case of clan mechs).

TT does not apply although it is often why people "look forward" to a specific mech.

#24 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:40 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 02 February 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'd actually give it a bit more ST at the shoulder (you extended it to the joint connecting it to the torso which isn't necessary imo) and a little more ST in the middle, that way it isn't just CT and arms, but meh, I'd have to actually start piloting to get a good idea where you get hit.

the shoulder was intentional. MEchanically, ALL that section would be is load bearing for the arm and actuator. There would be no vital ST components there. So there probably IS more ST in the middle strip already, in reality.



Also the CT can't be right on the base picture anyhow, because the side lasers on a wolfhound are ST. If nothing else those have to encroach the CT. As with many of the hitbox diagrams in there I do not know If I consider them "gospel".

#25 Roadkill

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:42 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 February 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

So what happened? I mean, the TT side bagged for it cuz "lore", the Gamers bagged for it cuz "MW4", and Comps begged for it cuz "LazorvomitPEWPEW!!".......

Yep.

But Lore isn't a great reason unless the Mech is truely iconic, and the Wolfhound isn't.

And this ain't MW4. The Wolfhound was the Light Mech in MW4 because it had the best profile and weapons capability. Neither is true in MWO.

And while it can do laser vomit, it isn't the best at it. It's merely competent, which in MWO is a death sentence.

#26 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:46 PM

I like my WLF, it's a tough little mech. Having said that I mastered mine in short order and have other mechs that need attention.

#27 Retrospectus

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:47 PM

gotta disagree, my wolfhound-1 is by far my favourite mech and the one I tend to do consistently well in. being able to drop a 30 point alpha and scoot before anyone can react as well as being tough enough to take a couple hits (even with XL) means I end up surviving far longer in it than most of my heavies or assaults (though I am a fairly terrible assault pilot :P )

#28 Gyrok

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:47 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 02 February 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'd actually give it a bit more ST at the shoulder (you extended it to the joint connecting it to the torso which isn't necessary imo) and a little more ST in the middle, that way it isn't just CT and arms, but meh, I'd have to actually start piloting to get a good idea where you get hit.


Mostly legs get hit (surprise, surprise)...the WLF-1 with XL300 and 5 MPLs is a better FS9-S due to quirks for range giving you ML range on MPLs with a slight dip in heat comparatively. The other one I like alright is the WLF-2 with XL295 and 6 MLs.

Edited by Gyrok, 02 February 2016 - 02:50 PM.


#29 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:47 PM

View Postcdlord, on 02 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

I like my WLF, it's a tough little mech. Having said that I mastered mine in short order and have other mechs that need attention.

I mastered mine in about a week, they weren't bad.. but god they made my Crabs, Grasshoppers and Black Knights feel interesting in comparison.

#30 Sigilum Sanctum

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:48 PM

View PostCion, on 02 February 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Let's see

-lack of jumpjets: check
-released too close to the Panther (and looks alike): check
-enourmous side torsos: check (XL deathtrap)
Posted Image
(stolen from hitbox localization thread)

Need I say more?


Wait...is this for real? THOSE are its Arm/St hitboxes? Jesus christ, who authorized that? So not only does it run like it has a telephone pole shovd up its ***, it has ST hitboxes the size of Sweden.

Gg..

#31 CDLord HHGD

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:48 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

I mastered mine in about a week, they weren't bad.. but god they made my Crabs, Grasshoppers and Black Knights feel interesting in comparison.

Hard to anti-meta in laser boats these days...

#32 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:50 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 February 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

the shoulder was intentional. MEchanically, ALL that section would be is load bearing for the arm and actuator. There would be no vital ST components there. So there probably IS more ST in the middle strip already, in reality.



Also the CT can't be right on the base picture anyhow, because the side lasers on a wolfhound are ST. If nothing else those have to encroach the CT. As with many of the hitbox diagrams in there I do not know If I consider them "gospel".

I get that mechanically it made sense, but keeping it from having Mist Lynx look-ma-no-hands syndrome, I figured the best option would be to change that portion to the ST instead. If the ST encroaches more in the bellyplate in-game, I am totally cool with that, really the only change I would suggest is making the shoulder pad part of the arm hitbox instead ST and leaving the actual shoulder actuator as part of the ST.

#33 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:51 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 02 February 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'd actually give it a bit more ST at the shoulder (you extended it to the joint connecting it to the torso which isn't necessary imo) and a little more ST in the middle, that way it isn't just CT and arms, but meh, I'd have to actually start piloting to get a good idea where you get hit.

Posted Image
I'd say at the very least the ST has to encroach at leas that much, otherwise the lasers could not be there.

View PostRetrospectus, on 02 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

gotta disagree, my wolfhound-1 is by far my favourite mech and the one I tend to do consistently well in. being able to drop a 30 point alpha and scoot before anyone can react as well as being tough enough to take a couple hits (even with XL) means I end up surviving far longer in it than most of my heavies or assaults (though I am a fairly terrible assault pilot Posted Image )

That's great..no one said it was bad... but however well you personally do in it, they are MIA from most drops.

#34 Tordin

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:52 PM

So much barfing on the canine and feline mech, shame.. Like both the Wolfhound and Panther. One is though as nails with std and even then it got enough lasers to hit hard. The Panther does great as an annoying harasser but it NEEDS XL. To slow without.

#35 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:52 PM

View PostGyrok, on 02 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

Mostly legs get hit (surprise, surprise)...the WLF-1 with XL300 and 5 MPLs is a better FS9-S due to quirks for range giving you ML range on MPLs with a slight dip in heat comparatively. The other one I like alright is the WLF-2 with XL295 and 6 MLs.

True, all the rest is sort of moot in a more competitive setting, though I would disagree about the WLF-1 being a better FS9-S simply due to lacking jets means it wont due the same thing. On the other hand, it may put up a better fight against the king of lights currently (ACH, Oxide).


View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 February 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

I'd say at the very least the ST has to encroach at leas that much, otherwise the lasers could not be there.

Then I'd just say shift over the ST to account for the actuator and not the shoulder and extend the rear sections a bit so it isn't just CT and I would say it is golden.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 February 2016 - 02:54 PM.


#36 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:53 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 02 February 2016 - 02:50 PM, said:

I get that mechanically it made sense, but keeping it from having Mist Lynx look-ma-no-hands syndrome, I figured the best option would be to change that portion to the ST instead. If the ST encroaches more in the bellyplate in-game, I am totally cool with that, really the only change I would suggest is making the shoulder pad part of the arm hitbox instead ST and leaving the actual shoulder actuator as part of the ST.

yes, but unlike the Mist Lynx, you only have energy hardpoints in one arm, and your torsos are your firepower. You WANT to sacrifice your arms with the WLF..the Lynx..you do that, and you are disarmed, in more ways than one.

#37 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:56 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 02 February 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

yes, but unlike the Mist Lynx, you only have energy hardpoints in one arm, and your torsos are your firepower. You WANT to sacrifice your arms with the WLF..the Lynx..you do that, and you are disarmed, in more ways than one.

Yeah, but you still want to spread damage to the sides as well, then again, if you lose the arms you hopefully are able to do that with ease given your hitboxes.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 02 February 2016 - 02:59 PM.


#38 Gyrok

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:56 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 02 February 2016 - 02:52 PM, said:

True, all the rest is sort of moot in a more competitive setting, though I would disagree about the WLF-1 being a better FS9-S simply due to lacking jets means it wont due the same thing. On the other hand, it may put up a better fight against the king of lights currently (ACH, Oxide).



Then I'd just say shift over the ST to account for the actuator and not the shoulder and extend the rear sections a bit so it isn't just CT and I would say it is golden.


Honestly, with the climbing aspect being what it is...short of crawling straight up a 90 deg rock face, the WLF can do most things. It is bar none a better poking mech for MPLs, and it seems to get into places without JJs that many other mechs cannot. Perhaps it has a boost to climb rate?

#39 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:57 PM

View PostGyrok, on 02 February 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

Honestly, with the climbing aspect being what it is...short of crawling straight up a 90 deg rock face, the WLF can do most things. It is bar none a better poking mech for MPLs, and it seems to get into places without JJs that many other mechs cannot. Perhaps it has a boost to climb rate?

Naw, JJs afford you more than you give them credit for, enough so that quite a few light pilots I know consider 3 JJs a bare minimum for any jumping light.

#40 Red Shrike

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:58 PM

I love my little WLF-2®. It tanks more damage than my Mad Cat. (Yes, I named it Mad Cat)
I also like to run my WLF-1 in 100% stock with Steiner camo. (Not a fan of the 1A or 1B)

But the fact that I'm all about the Warhammer atm, and the fact that despite it being tanky it still gets ripped apart in seconds means it's taken a bit of a backseat for now.

But if you want to see more Wolfhounds ingame, I'll be sure to play them more.





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