98 replies to this topic

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Lightfoot, on 02 February 2016 - 02:20 PM, said:

I go into Mechlab and build interesting mechs, but there is really no point in using anything but a laser-boat in MWO. The rest of the weapons are just fluff to support massed lasers. MWO long range is dominated by ER large lasers. Short range is dominated by medium lasers.

Previous MechWarrior games had the whole arsenal competitive and dangerous. Not having that in MWO is a great loss of game depth. The other weapons need greater tactical strength so they beat lasers if used at the right range or right terrain. I think if the other weapons lack those qualities lasers will just be the best weapon for any circumstance and we will lose all that MechWarrior gameplay depth that Mechlab can bring. That's all.







.

What's funny to me, is, generally, the "Fun" mechs for me, are things that are close to lore accurate builds.

A timby prime with the pulse laser removed and LRM's downgraded to 15's instead of 20's for instance. Or Warhammers running a loadout based on the 6K variant, just upgraded to Double heatsinks instead of standards... or an atlas that can function at all ranges with a spread of weaponry, hell the Catapult C1 founders rocking ALRM15's and 4mlas... things like that.

And you know what, a lot of times, I can do quite well in these. That near stock timby prime being a great example, every time I take that thing out for a spin, I rarely do less than 2 kills, and 500+damage. I have enough missiles that I can play Indirrect Fire Support if my team needs, but my mix of ERLL, ERML and MG's let me get in some damned good hit's up close. And often times, if the team is playing even remotely well, that build alone, allows me to stomp on the meta and grind it's corpse into the dust.

But, that doesn't mean that, in optimal conditions, a meta mech can't beat me, quite the contrary, if I'm not careful, not paying close enough attention to the damage I'm taking, not utilzing the terrain or various other means of cover, concielment, and rolling damage properly, I can get wrecked easily... Because the meta IS there for a reason, it works... but GOD THE META IS STALE AS HELL.

So yes, OP, I agree, the meta is boring, but hey, play what's fun to you, learn to utilize it no matter what, and you'll be heads and shoulders better than the players that crutch the meta.

[Davegt27]

I think the saddest weapon in the game is the PPC/ERPPC

Looks like crap
Works like crap
Has unbelievable heat

I just shake my head whenever I see one being used

[Wild Pegasus]

Davegt27, on 02 February 2016 - 10:22 PM, said:

I think the saddest weapon in the game is the PPC/ERPPC

Looks like crap
Works like crap
Has unbelievable heat

I just shake my head whenever I see one being used

If you chainfire them, pick your targets carefully and have decent weapons to use inside of the 200 meter range, they work just fine. Granted they are pretty bleh on a chassis that's not quirked for them, but they're hardly as rubbish as, say, the LB10X.

Plus knocking a JJ'ing light mech out of the sky with a well-timed PPC shot is really satisfying.

[DovisKhan]

axe64, on 02 February 2016 - 04:11 PM, said:

all weapons in the game are effective minus the flamer

mechs can ballistic boat with great effectiveness they can laser boat some can even srm boat or streak boat hell even lrm boats can be useful in the right team comp

what is dependent most on how effective your boat will be is what type of mech you are playing and its hard point placement and some mechs are just gonna be ****

i have a streak boat timber wolf
my mauler has 6 auto cannons on it
my banshee has a **** ton of lasers
i have a dire with 4 uac 5
i have a marauder, warhammer, battle master, stalker, and highlander IIc all with lrms as the main weapons
and i have many different mechs with varying set up like these i listed i do well in all of them
the only thing i do **** in is just regular srms but i seen people use them to great effectiveness

LRM boats are perceived to suck because the vast majority of players don't have basic tactics 101 understanding, LRM is an archer of medieval times equivalent (maybe the new mech with the same name will help slower players understand the concept), you stay behind the big guys and fire your arrows in an arching trajectory, effectively allowing for two mech rows to attack, laser boats are in a huge disadvantage here, and will lose every time against a ballistic boat front with lrm back support.

However that requires coordination and discipline, two qualities very few people have unless trained.


The damage is also devastating, I use a MAD DOG as my lrm boat, cause of 6 lrm harpoints and since clan gear weighs so little, in best case scenario i can burst down a heavy mech, like Catapult in 4 salvos, I often hide behind a crab/dire or a marauder and support them to a great effect.

[jaxjace]

Theres a lot that needs to be done to fix how broken lasers are

• Increase burn time for ALL lasers, IS should still always have the advantage in duration but Id like to see the burn times the clans have on the IS and the clan burn being EVEN LONGER
  
• Revert to TT dmg values for ALL lasers, Clan LPL was never doing 13 dmg but that is only one of the worst offenders
  
• Reduce Clan LPL optimal range to 500
  
• Make all clan max range drop off DRAMATICALLY after their optimal range
  
• Ban triple LL, LPL for the IS in the form of ghost heat
  
• Reduce ALL PPC heat and Increase ALL PPC velocity.
  
• Reduce Gauss Cooldown to 4.75 with the chargeup, 5 seconds is STILL too long, (keep clan gauss cooldown at 5?)

Bonus something id like to try/see

MW4 style pulse lasers, the cooldown on those was extremely low but the duration was long so you were truly painting vomit laser on targets, small pulse really was a laser machine gun and it was cool, Regular lasers in that game were ****** because they could do pinpoint without any duration IE they did all their dmg to one spot all at once whatever you were aiming at, talk about OP.

[ComradeHavoc]

Many people, the devs included often forget that you can mitigate laser damage across you mech vs ballistics that does the direct damage.

I do agree though that lasers are better in almost every aspect compared to ballistics, but I'd rather run a light getting hit green vomit boats than a single AC/20.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mister Blastman, on 02 February 2016 - 03:14 PM, said:

Convergence has to go.

Ummm no.

The way convergence is done in MWO may need to change, but it definitely needs to stay. No convergence what so ever is just nonsensical.

[PyckenZot]

Dakka-Dire, PPC-BJ, LurmBattleMaster and Ilya M., amongst others, disgree with the OP.

Edited by PyckenZot, 03 February 2016 - 04:45 AM.

[totgeboren]

I dunno. Keep getting 600-800 dmg games in my 4 ERPPC Warhawk. Did over 1k the other night on poland highlands.

I keep reading that laser vomit is the only way to go, but I am consistently doing better in my projectile builds.
I think it's just matter of getting used to your mech.

[SoukouKiheiVOTOMS]

My AC20 Yen-lo-wang, Timber Wolf SRM and SSRM boats, LRM Warhawk, Daakka Mauler, 3ERML, 3SRM+A, UAC20 Highlander IIC, SRM Jenner IIC, Nopeva Prime Quad Machine Gun LBX 5, 4 ERSM, Dakka Direwolf, SRM Centurion, would all disagree. They're so fun and I do so much better in them than the meta.

[kapusta11]

Let's look at the alternatives, shall we:

LRMs - nerfed numerous times on demand of community during LRMageddon.
SRMs - splash damage nerfed on demand of community during Splatcat rising.
PPCs - projectile speed nerfed and GH applied on demand of community during the first and last days of Gauss PPC meta
AC20 - projectile speed nerfed and GH applied on demand of community because of Boomjagers and people switching to AC20 PPC combo.
AC5/UAC5 - projectile speed and cooldown nerfed on demand of community during 2x U/AC5 2x PPC meta
Gauss - cooldown nerfed and charging mechanic applied on demand of community because of reasons.

For some reason, I don't see why I should be using anything else but lasers.

Edited by kapusta11, 03 February 2016 - 05:48 AM.

[Livewyr]

Of course it's laser warrior.

Instant (no leading at any range)
Unlimited ammo (so "missing" or not getting full damage is much less of an issue)


So it's the same positioning skills needed for anything else, with none of that "leading" skill, ammo consumption, requiring a good shot...

It's basic mech-movement/positioning skills + candy crush.. and nothing more.

[mogs01gt]

Tyler Valentine, on 02 February 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

You'll find that the meta is overrated and that, with practice, you can do almost as well or just as well in 'mechs with ACs, PPCs, and missiles (maybe even a Timber with 3 ERPPCs and 3 Flamers if you're really patient).

Its not overrate at all. Go run 2 ERPPCs or 2 PPCs and then swap to LLs or LPL... The lasers perform better than the ppcs.

[thehiddenedge]

It's not so much Lasers as it is all the weapons converging into one spot instantly. If we had a gradual convergence and better convergence for locked targets vs unlocked targets it would help belay the snap shooting alphas we see so much currently. If you lower the heat cap(something which I am greatly in favor of) you would then just see a shift toward ballistic and laser pinpoint builds instead of pure laser alphas like we have now.

As much as I hate it in actual FPS's, weapon sway and cones of fire actually make much more sense for a lumbering battlemech which relies on targeting computers to aim the weapons while moving. If we had more "unlucky misses" we would see less alpha spamming and more use of smaller weapon groups and more shots taken. Think of the movement penalties to accuracy that most games already use. It makes much more sense for a walking tank that shakes violently with each step.

[Tyler Valentine]

Davegt27, on 02 February 2016 - 10:22 PM, said:

I think the saddest weapon in the game is the PPC/ERPPC

Looks like crap
Works like crap
Has unbelievable heat

I just shake my head whenever I see one being used

I use them all the time in solo...
saw one in CW the other day. Said on comms "PPC Black Knight... kill him last"

we won.

[Tyler Valentine]

mogs01gt, on 03 February 2016 - 07:03 AM, said:

Its not overrate at all. Go run 2 ERPPCs or 2 PPCs and then swap to LLs or LPL... The lasers perform better than the ppcs.

Only if you don't practice.

LPL are easier and more consistent. I admit, as stated in my above post, that I'll run LPL in CW. It's much easier to rack up 2000 damage that way. But, with practice, PPCs can be extremely effective. I'm not arguing that LASORs aren't great, I'm saying that they are overrated. you can do almost as well or just as well with other weapons and PRACTICE and it's a lot more fun

[Khobai]

Quote

It's not so much Lasers as it is all the weapons converging into one spot instantly.

It is mostly lasers. Because they hit at long-range with no travel time and converge instantly. And they dont use ammo so theres no consequence for missing at long range. Theres no reason NOT to shoot. At least sniping with ballistic weapons like gauss is kept in check by ammo limitations (as well as other mechanics like chargeup).

Lasers need to be MASSIVELY nerfed. Specifically any laser with more than 400m range.

For example:
ERLL and Large Laser need to be balanced better. Why would anyone ever use a Large Laser when the ERLL gives you 50% more range for only 1 extra heat? Its stupid. ERLL needs to run way hotter to make it a choice instead of a no brainer.

Edited by Khobai, 03 February 2016 - 10:34 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Tyler Valentine, on 03 February 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Only if you don't practice.
LPL are easier and more consistent. I admit, as stated in my above post, that I'll run LPL in CW. It's much easier to rack up 2000 damage that way. But, with practice, PPCs can be extremely effective. I'm not arguing that LASORs aren't great, I'm saying that they are overrated. you can do almost as well or just as well with other weapons and PRACTICE and it's a lot more fun

How are they overrated if by your own words they are easier to use? Efficiency is king in MWO and Lasers are vastly more efficient than PPCs and ACs.

Edited by mogs01gt, 03 February 2016 - 10:29 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Easier to use = more consistent results. If PPC's where better, but hard to use, that would be something (where with skill you can overcome a laser armed mech) but that isn't the case. Travel time ensures that PPC's can be actively dodged at a distance. Poor heat per damage makes them inefficient up close, where heat to damage transfer matters the most.

Lasers are objectively better than PPC's right now. PPC's aren't garbage, and you can use them and get by with them (particularly when adequately quirked) but compared on an unquirked chassis lasers are better by the numbers AND easier to use+more consistent.

Longer burn times would help in theory, but long burn times lead to very poor gameplay experience. They're just not fun, lead to more FF, and a host of other problems. IMHO, no burn time should ever exceed around 1.25s, and that's definitely an extreme.

[Tyler Valentine]

mogs01gt, on 03 February 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

How are they overrated if by your own words they are easier to use? Efficiency is king in MWO and Lasers are vastly more efficient than PPCs and ACs.

They are overrated because they are touted as the only viable weapon system. They're not. If you practice, all the other weapon systems can be viable.

How can I make this simpler for you?

BTW. Efficiency is king in your world but fun is king in my world... And i still seem to be moving up in ranks