92 replies to this topic

[Havoc SC]

Why are clan mech's getting the shaft?

is this supposed to be balance or lore or what?

I dont understand why IS mechs can get up to a 50% fire rate quirk and so many other very high percent upgrades, and clan gets negatives sometimes. just look at the IIC that just came out. why dont clan mechs not have the same quirks? they dont have any.

some of the IS chassis are set up pretty good, but the clan varients are LOL. And switching Omni parts will hurt you because, your no hardpoint shoulder is the reason the cannon in your arm fires 3% faster... stupid.

the price for clan mechs is very high, SOME of them have upgrades, and if not.. you will never get them, but your gonna pay for it. why is clan not allowed to upgrade? it cannot be due to haveing omni. switching the arms just put a -8% laser cooldown on one... stupid.

I got 3 weeks in this game and the Unit i am in cannot explain to me why things are like this. everyone just says, dont play clan.

can anyone help?

[Paigan]

Lorewise, clans have better tech and are supposed to be better, because IS tech has decayed over the centuries to moreless crap (sorry Freebirthers ).

Normally, this is balanced by some "rigid" tactics of the clans (right down to being almost stupid) and on the IS side by superior numbers and "mean" tactics (ambushes, artillery strikes, etc.).

Think of it like clans being 10 knights in shiny armor that ride honorably into battle and IS being >30 or so villagers. In a "normal" battle, the knights will always slaughter the villagers. But if the villagers get a good situation, play mean or work together well, they can stomp the 10 knights, no sweat.

Personally, I think this is a VERY nice balancing approach and it could be easily done in MWO with a few XML edits (e.g. give only IS modules and consumables to represent tinkering and tactics and give IS more drop tonnage and drop waves, even in quickplay. Tada: perfect lorewise balance achieved).

Russ doesn't want that kind of balance, but instead he wants a simplified, lore-breaking "everything is equally good" approach. So he has to magically quirk up lostech crap until it is on par with or many times even better than high tech (which is pretty stupid, but here we are).

Normally, Mechs wouldn't have any quirks at all, or maybe quirks that give them "character" (5% better here, but in turn 5% worse there). That would be much cooler. But again, here we are.

As far as the unrealistic 3% go:
See it as an abstraction. It doesn't make too much sense in a realistic way, but it allows for nice tinkering and build engineering.

Edited by Paigan, 03 February 2016 - 01:47 AM.

[Moldur]

Basically, before there were no bonuses and stuff. There were only IS mechs. Then Clans were introduced and Clans were overpowered. Since their release, they have slowly been nerfed while some IS mechs got buffed. It kept going like this until we are at our current situation, where instead of balance meeting in the middle, clans are too nerfed, and IS are too buffed.

A million cries of how inaccurate I am, well guess what, that is the rundown for somebody who is 3 weeks into the game.

[Zolaz]

See, your problem is that you think this is Battletech or Mechwarrior. This is Mechwarrior Online, please send your questions to Russ on Twitter.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Clans are getting the shaft because PGI has to balance it for 12v12.

[Skarlock]

Paigan, on 03 February 2016 - 01:21 AM, said:

Personally, I think this is a VERY nice balancing approach and it could be easily done in MWO with a few XML edits (e.g. give only IS modules and consumables to represent tinkering and tactics and give IS more drop tonnage and drop waves, even in quickplay. Tada: perfect lorewise balance achieved).
engineering.

I'd love for PGI to implement this so you could see how incredibly difficult it would be to balance multiple drops, and how it would fall flat on its face without vastly more effort and time put into it than the quirks system. Tell me, how would conquest work if a clan heavy team can just run rough shod over all the objectives on the map and then end the game before the IS reinforcements even get back to the battle field? How would teams of mixed clan/IS work? How is denying clan mechs modules (which IMO is actually a perfectly valid mechanic, maybe the only one you suggested) any different from giving a few stat bonuses to IS mechs instead via quirks? The only major difference would be that in order to get a balanced IS mech via modules, is you have to pay a ton of extra cbills per mech... To get a balanced mech... At least with quirks, you don't have hidden cbill costs.

Your perception of how easy it is to balance a game like this is rather ill-conceived considering some IS mechs are still grossly under powered as well as some clan mechs, some IS mechs are grossly overpowered as are some clan mechs, but perhaps not to the same extent as the IS mechs, and some weapon systems like flamers and machine guns are virtually useless, lasers are the singular long and medium range offensive solution, and ppcs and auto cannons are relegated to being niche weapons for uber quirked mechs that can actually use them to some decent effect while generally being weaker than other options on most mechs.

Edited by Skarlock, 03 February 2016 - 02:34 AM.

[adamts01]

Moldur, on 03 February 2016 - 02:16 AM, said:

Basically, before there were no bonuses and stuff. There were only IS mechs. Then Clans were introduced and Clans were overpowered. Since their release, they have slowly been nerfed while some IS mechs got buffed. It kept going like this until we are at our current situation, where instead of balance meeting in the middle, clans are too nerfed, and IS are too buffed.

A million cries of how inaccurate I am, well guess what, that is the rundown for somebody who is 3 weeks into the game.

Exactly this.

OP: Clans are getting + quirks very soon and losing all their - quirks while IS range quirks are getting caped at 10% and some chassis are getting reduced structure buffs. So the imbalance should be drastically lessened soon.

What I find to be the biggest problem is not IS vs Clan, but weight balancing. PGI is trying to make a 60 ton heavy equal to a 75 ton heavy for solo/group que, but that plays havoc with CW where a 75 ton heavy should be more powerful than a 60 ton heavy. They need to decide which way they're going to balance the game and stick with it. I say balance tonnage for CW, then give a c-bill bonus to lighter chassis in solo/group.

[BoldricKent]

Price difference is based on equipment... all Omni mech come with XL engine,DHS, Endo and even Ferro,
when you start adding that to IS counterparts youll find the only difference will be cost of weapons (DHS,Endo
upgrade which are must haves for most mech add 2,25 mill cbils to price tag) add XL it will be around 5mil
and with that you get real cost of IS chassies.
So cost wise tech is really on same level.
Pgi is between hammer and anvil in this case.
If you want to give game battletech flavor you got to stick to lore, but in game mechanic demands certain adjustment,
like damage delivery,equipment etc..since we are stuck with equal numbers matching, better clan tech ... makes IS
a underdog... so quirks came, starting balance saga.
I would suggest poking a bit in battletech lore, clans ware outnumber almost 4/1 on mech and even worse in conventional
arms, they had a war/spaceship advantage.
While battlemech allow better customization, compere Clan Omni to Clan Battlemech, let say Orion IIc to Timberwolf or WarHawk to Highlander... and tell which would you prefer to field.

[Monkey Lover]

Its the price you pay for better weapons,engine ,2slot dhs,target computers,extra hardpoints and ommi pods.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 03 February 2016 - 02:46 AM.

[Wolfways]

Monkey Lover, on 03 February 2016 - 02:46 AM, said:

Its the price you pay for better weapons,engine ,2slot dhs,target computers,extra hardpoints and ommi pods.

Tc's? Waste of space imo. I'll only use one if I can't fit another DHS in.
Extra hardpoints? Clan mechs have the hardpoints of their stock weapons, and unlike IS mechs don't get extra hardpoints (at least none that I've seen).
Omni-pods... No thanks. They are the only thing I don't want to change.

[627]

getting the shaft... o_O

do we play the same game? Clan mechs are still superior if you look at the current meta builds, even with the nerfs. And don't start comparing a myst lynx with an overquirked IS mech, please.

[Wolfways]

627, on 03 February 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

getting the shaft... o_O

do we play the same game? Clan mechs are still superior if you look at the current meta builds, even with the nerfs. And don't start comparing a myst lynx with an overquirked IS mech, please.

Screw meta noobs.

[Bobzilla]

Truth is, clans were behind a paywall and op. People developed lots of hate for clans because of this but never let it go regardless of any change.

A single IS will cost the same as a single clan. So same cost. IS just has a bonus in reuseable engines like IIC.

[Red Shrike]

Skarlock, on 03 February 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

How would teams of mixed clan/IS work?

They shouldn't have been mixed in the first place.
Mixing of factions is something I hate, and it's something I dislike in games like World of [insert vehicle here] and War Thunder. (wtf War Thunder)

Edit: That includes pitting factions against each other who never actually fought one another. But that's more a War Thunder thing than an MWO thing.

Edited by Red Shrike, 03 February 2016 - 04:30 AM.

[Coralld]

Red Shrike, on 03 February 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

They shouldn't have been mixed in the first place.
Mixing of factions is something I hate, and it's something I dislike in games like World of [insert vehicle here] and War Thunder. (wtf War Thunder)

Edit: That includes pitting factions against each other who never actually fought one another. But that's more a War Thunder thing than an MWO thing.

So basically dump the public games and throw every one into FW? I don't know about you but I can see how this would pizz a lot of people off.

[FupDup]

Here are some of the upcoming game changes later this month...

1. MASC buff (some IS mechs have it, but the Clan mechs that have it tend to benefit more, and the Exe is already viable as it is...)

2. Targeting Computer buffs (esp. heavier ones)

3. Removal of negative quirks from SCR and TBR (maybe DWF too?)

4. Supposedly some quirks for the "dog" Clan mechs

5. Nerfs to Inner Sphere range quirks on 72 different Inner Sphere chassis


No, the Clams are not "getting the shaft" this month, at all.

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2016 - 07:59 AM.

[pbiggz]

FupDup, on 03 February 2016 - 07:58 AM, said:

Here are some of the upcoming game changes later this month...

1. MASC buff (some IS mechs have it, but the Clan mechs that have it tend to benefit more, and the Exe is already viable as it is...)

2. Targeting Computer buffs (esp. heavier ones)

3. Removal of negative quirks from SCR and TBR (maybe DWF too?)

4. Supposedly some quirks for the "dog" Clan mechs

5. Nerfs to Inner Sphere range quirks on 72 different Inner Sphere chassis


No, the Clams are not "getting the shaft" this month, at all.

IS still has its structure. Im not advocating that we get rid of that altogether (although i think there are far more elegant ways to balance) but whether the february patch really balances clan and IS or is just a bunch of superficial changes remains to be seen.

[FupDup]

pbiggz, on 03 February 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

IS still has its structure. Im not advocating that we get rid of that altogether (although i think there are far more elegant ways to balance) but whether the february patch really balances clan and IS or is just a bunch of superficial changes remains to be seen.

The structure on the BJ is getting reduced though, which is the mech that most people are complaining about (because 45 ton mechs apparently aren't supposed to be good or something like that).

The point is that the Clans will be benefiting to at least some degree this month, so this isn't a very accurate time to say that they're getting "shafted."

Edited by FupDup, 03 February 2016 - 08:17 AM.

[Mechteric]

They're still balancing things, so just be patient.

[Rhaythe]

There's a reason no competitive Mechwarrior PC game was set in 3050 before... and this thread does a pretty good job of listing them.