138 replies to this topic

[CwStrife]

I've seen so many posts as of late regarding clan being so weak now its sad. I play CW everyday, and one reason the clans are losing so much is the majority of good units are IS now leaving the clan pugs to fend for themselves...

But one of the real problem I've noticed is how many clanners are sitting in the back using LRM builds and then saying IS is OP. If you run a timberwolf loaded to the brim with streak srm6 and ML you can get very close to a 100 point alpha and us IS guys go down very quickly.

Just because your clan mechs can hold 12 lasers doesn't mean you should be putting 12 ML on ur Nova. Just like IS running 6 LL on a stalker is suicide with regards to heat.

Its the amount of horrible builds, the loads of LRMs and the general incompetence regarding your heat efficiency for your builds on the clan side that hurt you. All these mad dogs running LRMs instead of direct fire SRM that would legit help their team out.

The quirks for IS aren't the problem, its just the players on the clan side who love to lob LRMs nonstop and actually hurt their team while most of us IS players know to stick together and focus.

Too much whining instead of learning to play correctly.

[Jack Spade Ward]

How long have you been on the game? Honestly?

If you are a player that plays at least a fair amount of time, you know that streaks are only good against lights or light mediums, against everything else not so good...

Clans use LRMS now because there isnt any other weapon system that works well! If you had played at least a year, you would see that the meta on the clans were the laser vomit build!

Ok, i understand your frustration on how IS will be nerfed, at least the super-quirked mechs... but you will overcome, like always, by crying back to PGI that the big bad clans are so OP!!!!

[Spider00x]

The problem is as its always been clans just have terrible pilots, they allow the power of their mechs to carry them through matches. They already out range IS, out DMG IS, out armor IS and your have the most broken light mech in terms of the super cheeta that can pretty much do anything you need in that weight category. Honestly Clan and IS are not meant to be equal, IS teams in CW have to work together to overcome Clan teams. Seriously, dire wolf and timber wolf pilots dont even attempt to torso twist. Your gonna have to work a little harder to get me to feel sorry for the clans when an organized push of 12 timber wolves rofl stomps almost any IS team.

Edited by Spider00x, 04 February 2016 - 06:12 PM.

[CwStrife]

Spadejack, on 04 February 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

How long have you been on the game? Honestly?

If you are a player that plays at least a fair amount of time, you know that streaks are only good against lights or light mediums, against everything else not so good...

Clans use LRMS now because there isnt any other weapon system that works well! If you had played at least a year, you would see that the meta on the clans were the laser vomit build!

Ok, i understand your frustration on how IS will be nerfed, at least the super-quirked mechs... but you will overcome, like always, by crying back to PGI that the big bad clans are so OP!!!!

I've been playing since 2012 when there was no CW and 8v8 still. I'm only saying all the clanners that are crying now either use crap builds or just want to stay back and LuRM everything and eat a sandwhich in their other hand.

A good clan team can really punish a good IS team, but the clanners cry because 80% of them have terrible builds and don't know teamwork.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Spadejack, on 04 February 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

How long have you been on the game? Honestly?

If you are a player that plays at least a fair amount of time, you know that streaks are only good against lights or light mediums, against everything else not so good...

Streaks aren't exactly useless against heavier targets. A 60 point alpha is still a 60 point alpha, even if it's a bit scattered and only fires every 6 seconds.

A Streak Crow is a hard counter to every light mech in the game (roughly a quarter of the enemy team) and a serious threat to everything else. It presents a 360m radius no mech's land for an entire weight class. The IS does not have an equivalent.

[DivineEvil]

I've spent two weeks trying to prove this very point over and over again.

Clan players simply refuse to understand, that they have all the same, if not better a choice of viable weapons. Even though IS players previously, even unit-premade ones, had to resort to Missile and Ballistic weapons to compete substantially with Clan's laser-vomit, Clan players never had to adjust anything - they were using same-old overpowered lasers (no aiming skill involved), mixing up with Streaks for later waves (no aiming skill involved) and Gauss (synergized with lasers at ranges, where no aiming skill is involved).

But now, when most of Clan advantages recieved specific drawbacks, and IS/Clan are seemingly equal, safe for Energy Range quirks that will be toned-down soon, they still refuse to adjust anything in their playstyle. After a year of repetetive cycle of successfully using the same mechs with same weapons on every map, they seem to become incapable of adapting any new doctrines, relying on their long-established bias against using weapons with higher requirements to personal skill, even if they're much better for specific situations.

While I witnessed all the whining across the IS side back in a days, it was generally reasonable. When you have a full-12 team with spreadsheet-constructed Dropdeck and all waves specifically balanced for objectives at hand eliminated by a 6-premade team and PUGs simply running vomit-peeking algorithm like Academy-level bots, eventually it forces you to the conclusion, that something is probably wrong with the balance. Right now, it seems that IS and Clans are for the first time about on the same page, except for long-noted Energy Range overboard..

..yet all we see now is Clanners whining about how Clans are unplayable, because on some maps, on some mechs this one weapon fires further than their alternative. What the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu....

[Bud Crue]

DivineEvil, on 05 February 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

Right now, it seems that IS and Clans are for the first time about on the same page, except for long-noted Energy Range overboard..

..yet all we see now is Clanners whining about how Clans are unplayable, because on some maps, on some mechs this one weapon fires further than their alternative.

Agreed.

I think both the volume and the irrationality of the whining around here of late has been cranked up to eleven.

To wit: All the threads that start with essentially the following premise: "Black Jack structure too much! Makes Black Jack an Atlas!" Okay, perhaps you are right. The Black Jack is OP. But then these threads devolve into "Black Jack is OP...thus ALL Clan mechs are unplayable we should all just quit!" Okay now you lost me.

Same thing with the extra range that some IS chasis have with the ERLL. Okay. Even if I buy the premise that "its against lore!" that any IS mech can out range a clanner, and that IS players are "abusing" those extra range chassis, it doesn't make all clan mechs inferior. What it does mean is that if you Mr. or Ms. Clanner are up against those OP ERLL IS mechs, you need to close with them. Just like IS mechs have always had to do with Clanner mechs that have always out ranged those of the IS until now.

Here is the best part though: despite the inherent absurdity of the much of the clan whining of late...their level of crazy apparently won the day if Russ' comments at the town hall are to be believed (proposed max 10% energy range buff for ALL IS mechs, etc.). So in the end, while the whines may be annoying and even absurd, the devs apparently agree with their underlying assertions. What's that tell ya? (tells me that it pays to whine like crazy in order to get your way in this game).

[Der Hesse]

Bud Crue, on 05 February 2016 - 04:36 AM, said:

Agreed.

I think both the volume and the irrationality of the whining around here of late has been cranked up to eleven.

To wit: All the threads that start with essentially the following premise: "Black Jack structure too much! Makes Black Jack an Atlas!" Okay, perhaps you are right. The Black Jack is OP. But then these threads devolve into "Black Jack is OP...thus ALL Clan mechs are unplayable we should all just quit!" Okay now you lost me.

Same thing with the extra range that some IS chasis have with the ERLL. Okay. Even if I buy the premise that "its against lore!" that any IS mech can out range a clanner, and that IS players are "abusing" those extra range chassis, it doesn't make all clan mechs inferior. What it does mean is that if you Mr. or Ms. Clanner are up against those OP ERLL IS mechs, you need to close with them. Just like IS mechs have always had to do with Clanner mechs that have always out ranged those of the IS until now.

Here is the best part though: despite the inherent absurdity of the much of the clan whining of late...their level of crazy apparently won the day if Russ' comments at the town hall are to be believed (proposed max 10% energy range buff for ALL IS mechs, etc.). So in the end, while the whines may be annoying and even absurd, the devs apparently agree with their underlying assertions. What's that tell ya? (tells me that it pays to whine like crazy in order to get your way in this game).

Especially the last sentence is a very sad truth.
They don´t even only cry, they also game the system to force PGI to intervene and when you write about it in the forums your thread gets deleted.

[WANTED]

As much as it looks like PGI listens to the whiners ( IS and Clan ) in the forums, I think it has more to do with data they analyze from the game that we do not see. They didn't change much for years when the IS whined about clan tech. Now Clanners are whining about their nerfs but really I trust PGI on their adjustments. I hate clans ( both in Table top and here ) but I recognize the game needs to be balanced as best as possible to allow all to enjoy their game play experience. Yes part of me inside laughs a little when I see all the clanners crying about IS mechs now cause for so long it was the other way around. I also laugh to see, in this thread as well, the old " adapt and overcome" statements we heard so long from Clans to IS pilots and now it's reversed.

In essence, I agree with reducing our long range ER LL quirks to cap at 10 percent and reducing the Blackjack's ridiculous structure quircks ( even though I am loving that little bugger right now ). I would like to think the years of Clan superiority tech over IS and IS having to adjust to this as best as possible might have improved our pilots overall? It may take awhile for the clan pilots to adjust as IS did over time as well.

[Der Hesse]

WANTED, on 05 February 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

As much as it looks like PGI listens to the whiners ( IS and Clan ) in the forums, I think it has more to do with data they analyze from the game that we do not see. They didn't change much for years when the IS whined about clan tech. Now Clanners are whining about their nerfs but really I trust PGI on their adjustments. I hate clans ( both in Table top and here ) but I recognize the game needs to be balanced as best as possible to allow all to enjoy their game play experience. Yes part of me inside laughs a little when I see all the clanners crying about IS mechs now cause for so long it was the other way around. I also laugh to see, in this thread as well, the old " adapt and overcome" statements we heard so long from Clans to IS pilots and now it's reversed.

In essence, I agree with reducing our long range ER LL quirks to cap at 10 percent and reducing the Blackjack's ridiculous structure quircks ( even though I am loving that little bugger right now ). I would like to think the years of Clan superiority tech over IS and IS having to adjust to this as best as possible might have improved our pilots overall? It may take awhile for the clan pilots to adjust as IS did over time as well.

Your trust in PGI may be right or not.
But you should consider that the circumstances on which PGI decides can be influenced by the players, especially big units. What do you think happens to win/loss ratio between is and clan when all big clan units change to is and leave only pugs back that they steamroll then together with the already existing is units, like it happened the last weeks?

[Curccu]

Spadejack, on 04 February 2016 - 04:01 PM, said:

How long have you been on the game? Honestly?

If you are a player that plays at least a fair amount of time, you know that streaks are only good against lights or light mediums, against everything else not so good...

Clans use LRMS now because there isn't any other weapon system that works well!

Honestly... You talk about how long dude has been playing the game and then actually make claim that streaks are only good against light or lightmedium mechs.... which is true.

and they you say CLAN LRMs WORK WELL! WTH! One of the crappiest weapon systems in this whole game that cannot get even close to laservomit, dakka or brawl in effectiveness and you call it only one weapon system that works well. No wonder clans are losing games.

[Volts]

Did this really need another thread though? We've been over this ad nauseam.

[Bud Crue]

Volts, on 05 February 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

Did this really need another thread though? We've been over this ad nauseam.

Baby, we don't talk/argue about this stuff to be novel. We talk/argue about this stuff, to talk/argue about this stuff.

[DivineEvil]

Der Hesse, on 05 February 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

Your trust in PGI may be right or not.
But you should consider that the circumstances on which PGI decides can be influenced by the players, especially big units. What do you think happens to win/loss ratio between is and clan when all big clan units change to is and leave only pugs back that they steamroll then together with the already existing is units, like it happened the last weeks?

Still, I tend to believe (and not just hope for) that PGI practically analyzed the behavior persisting in ongoing matches and made valid resolutions, the same way they've observed CW before, seeing as Clanners abused laser/gauss combo 90% of the time, which led them to reduce Clanner's DHS power and increasing Gauss reload time for both factions to prevent illicit use for a sniper weapon.

I wholeheartedly agree, that even 20% general Energy Range is an overkill, as it doesn't just increases weapons performance in its role, but actually expands it performance bandwidth. +35% Energy Range were basically equating ERLL damage curve over the one of a Gauss Rifle. Same is true for BJ structure - while I don't think it were making them nearly as tanky as an Atlas, their combination with weapon quirks made BJ a bit too strong. It didn't bugged me from the balance standpoint as much, as the fact of these advantages were competely unearned by the BJ and uncalled for. Vindicators, on the other hand, would definitely could help these same structure quirks instead, and I can bet, not many would freak out over it, the same way as nobody really raised a panic around a HBK-4SP, which also acquired similar level of modifiers, yet is not nearly as easy to abuse.

Edited by DivineEvil, 05 February 2016 - 06:10 AM.

[Bud Crue]

DivineEvil, on 05 February 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

Still, I tend to believe (and not just hope for) that PGI practically analyzed the behavior persisting in ongoing matches and made valid resolutions, the same way they've observed CW before, seeing as Clanners abused laser/gauss combo 90% of the time, which led them to reduce Clanner's DHS power and increasing Gauss reload time for both factions to prevent illicit use for a sniper weapon.

I wholeheartedly agree, that even 20% general Energy Range is an overkill, as it doesn't just increases weapons performance in its role, but actually expands it performance bandwidth. +35% Energy Range were basically equating ERLL damage curve over the one of a Gauss Rifle. Same is true for BJ structure - while I don't think it were making them nearly as tanky as an Atlas, their combination with weapon quirks made BJ a bit too strong. It didn't bugged me from the balance standpoint as much, as the fact of these advantages were competely unearned by the BJ and uncalled for. Vindicators, on the other hand, would definitely could help these same structure quirks instead, and I can bet, not many would freak out over it, the same way as nobody really raised a panic around a HBK-4SP, which also acquired similar level of modifiers, yet is not nearly as easy to abuse.

The thing about quirks is that in their current state they seem arbitrary to me. Moreover the proposals for fixing them are equally arbitrary. While I like that PGI appears to listen to its community, I think the quirk system we have is the result of the community's previous kvetching about how weapon specific quirks were stupid. So, PGI replaced them (for the most part) with the general category (energy, ballistics, etc.) system we have now; and it doesn't make much sense.

IMHO quirks, nerfs and buffs should be about making each mech viable, distinct (and in my world appropriate to the lore). The current proposal of a 10% max energy range cap that was mentioned at the town hall may be an easy solution to the OP ERLL range on some mechs but it is a silly punch in the gut to a lot of other mechs (especially a lot of less than optimum light mechs).

The example you give in re the vindicator is a perfect one. That mech needs all the help it can get, yet because we don't want weapon specific quirks and now no mech specific quirks either (based on the town hall). As a result this mech (and I fear many others) will remain in the unused bin of most player's inventories. Not just because it is "bad" but because it won't even be "different".

Edited by Bud Crue, 05 February 2016 - 06:51 AM.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

Yes.....IS MUST win using just Flamer Locust....nerf Clans till even the crapp LRM Trial Catapult will leave a CW game with 24 kills.....Its always the loadout..for shure../facepalm

[DivineEvil]

Quote

The thing about quirks is that in their current state they seem arbitrary to me. Moreover the proposals for fixing them are equally arbitrary. While I like that PGI appears to listen to its community, I think the quirk system we have is the result of the community's previous kvetching about how weapon specific quirks were stupid. So, PGI replaced them (for the most part) with the general category (energy, ballistics, etc.) system we have now; and it doesn't make much sense.

Well, it's still true, that weapon specific quirks in previous iteration were so influential, that the limitations to weapon choice were too strict. I don't thenk the problem is here, but there is indeed two main problems with how PGI use the quirk system, as I'll state below.

Quote

IMHO quirks, nerfs and buffs should be about making each mech viable, distinct (and in my world appropriate to the lore). The current proposal of a 10% max energy range cap that was mentioned at the town hall may be an easy solution to the OP ERLL range on some mechs but it is a silly punch in the gut to a lot of other mechs (especially a lot of less than optimum light mechs).

Different general quirks have an inequal influence on weapon balance. For example, Ballistic heat modifier is basically worthless with present distorted and biased heat management system. The opposite goes for Energy Range, that magnifies the no-aim laser mechanics to a degree of open abuse.

In general, quirk system is simply not viable as a tool to balance Clans and IS. It requires modifier values beyond reasonable limits to achieve that, and Clans are left with nothing to fiddle with, and their Omni-pod system loses more than the half of it's customization potential because of this. My opinion of how to work around it is not new and I hate to repeat it every time.

Quote

The example you give in re the vindicator is a perfect one. That mech needs all the help it can get, yet because we don't want weapon specific quirks and now no mech specific quirks either (based on the town hall). As a result this mech (and I fear many others) will remain in the unused bin of most player's inventories. Not just because it is "bad" but because it won't even be "different".

Thats a problem of how the quirks are distributed initially. I've spent an obscene amount of time writing a freaking essays how quirks should be mindfully given to the mechs, which coincide with their lore-based designation. Each mech should have a predetermined role, that would direct PGI to outfit each mech with it's respective type of quirks.

Urbies, Firestarters, Centurions, Kintaros, Dragons, Thunderbolts, Cataphracts, Orions, Awesomes and Stalkers are lore-wise were designed as jack-of-all-trades for direct combat, so logically either of them has to get 66% of quirks designated to make them tankier, with remaining 33% used for providing variety across variants. Same with Panther, Blackjack, Hunchback, Shadow Hawk, Jagermechs, Warhammers, Marauders, Battlemasters, Maulers, Banshees and King Crabs, that are definitive firepower platforms, that should get amplified with varied quirks, with minor quirks of other types for variety. Same is for Mobile and Infotech mechs.

If you lay a time for Sarna research (which I did), then you'd find, that there's generally a mech for each weight category for each role, with exception of 35/50 overpopulated (6 mechs per category) and 25/95 underpopulated (2 mechs per category) groups. It forms a convenient grid of 15 specialist mech per weight (60 total) + 8 hybrid mechs. And that's only for the IS side, all within the present time-line.

Kinski Orlawisch, on 05 February 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

Yes.....IS MUST win using just Flamer Locust....nerf Clans till even the crapp LRM Trial Catapult will leave a CW game with 24 kills.....Its always the loadout..for shure../facepalm

Yes, yes! Provide us with your usual uneducated exaggeration. Your Clan peers will certainly pay you million respects for misrepresenting their side of the argument.

Edited by DivineEvil, 05 February 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Bud Crue]

DE,
I think you are spot on here with the "quirks should be mindfully given" view. But I just don't see it happening. It may even be impossible. PGI has at least two totally different (if not contradictory views) that they are trying to take into account: The comp folks who want mechs to be buffed and quirked for very specific alpha based builds, and the BT lore nerds who want modifiers to reflect at least a specific role for the mech, if not the role that the lore actually suggests/dictates...and then under both those views they need balanced game play. I can't imagine this is easy to do.

To commit forum blasphemy for a moment... I agree with Paul. During the second (or maybe it was the third) test server period, he said that one of the goals of balance was that each mech of each chassis is to have a distinct and viablle role. I agree and think that is how modifiers should be used...to create and/or help define and/or enhance these roles. If these roles are based on lore, great, if not so be it; as long as the role is clear and the modifiers (buff/nerf/quirk) reflect that role I'd be happy with such a system. It seems to me however that based on the last two balance passes, PGI has abandoned this stated goal. Alas.

So where does this leave us? We know the community* didn't like weapon specific quirks, we now know they don't like general class quirks. Who knows if/what PGI will try next. Whatever they do, I am sure it will be nicely divisive and thus entertaining.

*by community I mean those that PGI apparently listens to, whomever that may be.

[Dawnstealer]

Kaeb Odellas, on 04 February 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Streaks aren't exactly useless against heavier targets. A 60 point alpha is still a 60 point alpha, even if it's a bit scattered and only fires every 6 seconds.

A Streak Crow is a hard counter to every light mech in the game (roughly a quarter of the enemy team) and a serious threat to everything else. It presents a 360m radius no mech's land for an entire weight class. The IS does not have an equivalent.

This - I've had my face rocked by one of those streakcows in an Assault before. You get hit with that many missiles, even when they spread, there's only so many hit locations. If you're already a little banged up, a streakboat is a nasty thing to run into: NONE of those missiles will miss, so you take FULL damage from the salvo. It's not like a standard SRM where you might miss the target with half of them, but the ones that hit go where you want them to.

[DivineEvil]

Bud Crue, on 05 February 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

DE,
I think you are spot on here with the "quirks should be mindfully given" view. But I just don't see it happening. It may even be impossible. PGI has at least two totally different (if not contradictory views) that they are trying to take into account: The comp folks who want mechs to be buffed and quirked for very specific alpha based builds, and the BT lore nerds who want modifiers to reflect at least a specific role for the mech, if not the role that the lore actually suggests/dictates...and then under both those views they need balanced game play. I can't imagine this is easy to do.

I'm a comp player myself, but I strictly oppose the idea of "alpha based builds" to begin with.

The source of that outlook is broken heat management, which allows these repetetive-high-alpha behaviors to exist. Until heat management is fixed, there will not be a weapon balance, and because of that there will not be mech balance either. Its all hinges on PGI's weird passion towards oversized heat capacity.

Quote

To commit forum blasphemy for a moment... I agree with Paul. During the second (or maybe it was the third) test server period, he said that one of the goals of balance was that each mech of each chassis is to have a distinct and viablle role. I agree and think that is how modifiers should be used...to create and/or help define and/or enhance these roles. If these roles are based on lore, great, if not so be it; as long as the role is clear and the modifiers (buff/nerf/quirk) reflect that role I'd be happy with such a system. It seems to me however that based on the last two balance passes, PGI has abandoned this stated goal. Alas.

Before launching first PTS sessions, Paul even specified that they're going to evaluate mechs by those four pillars - Defense, Firepower, Mobility and Infotech - which is why I preformed that research across weight-classes of IS mechs in the first place, to provide suggestions for distributing quirks accordingly. He also assured, that they will be evaluating each mech and it's variants separately based on all the inbred properties and flaws they possess.

My suggestions, unfortunately were left unnoticed, the info-tech pillar was thrown out of the window for no reason, quirks remained just as random as they were before, and considering our current quirk distribution, the indepth analysis was also completely abandoned.

At this point I cannot do anything more but to keep bringing-up the same points over and over, and argue against balance whines for my amusement. Everything else seems meaningless.

Edited by DivineEvil, 05 February 2016 - 12:18 PM.