27 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

So, I've been wanting to make a post for a while about this, and finally decided to go ahead with this.

The PTS from 2 months ago proved that making radar even more scarce than it currently is, doesn't make the game better. The radar is currently limited to LOS (and range), making it even more limited doesn't do a whole lot. After all, what is the whole point of radar in games? To know where the enemy is. LOS radar already makes that a bit redundant since you can generally see the enemy if you pick them up on radar and you can even see the enemy outside of radar. So what is the point of radar if it is limited by LOS?

So this is where I'm going to bring up something I've said for a while, if PGI wants to make radar actually useful and Information Warfare a thing, they need to give certain mechs the ability to detect without LOS. A mech that has less firepower but can tell when or when not to poke against an enemy is incredibly useful in certain situations, as is being able to scout without ever having to expose yourself to enemy. These are the sort of situations that make radar useful, not shoehorning direct fire weapons to require locks to do optimal damage or making it so some mechs can't get doritos until the enemy is within 200m, that actually reduces the importance of radar (and forces engagement ranges to shorten).

[Alistair Winter]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

The PTS from 2 months ago proved that making radar even more scarce than it currently is, doesn't make the game better.

I disagree. It proved that one particular version of Infotech wasn't enough to fix the game.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

The radar is currently limited to LOS (and range), making it even more limited doesn't do a whole lot. After all, what is the whole point of radar in games? To know where the enemy is. LOS radar already makes that a bit redundant since you can generally see the enemy if you pick them up on radar and you can even see the enemy outside of radar. So what is the point of radar if it is limited by LOS?

First of all, there are many maps where you can't immediately spot all the mechs on the screen even if you have LOS. On Caustic there's too much smoke, on Forest Colony there are trees, on River City mechs can often blend in with buildings from a distance. Second of all, the point of radar is to get target lock and then to see the paperdoll for target info. On top of that, you get to see the range to your target even without having your reticule directly aimed at them, which is important.

For gauss or ERLL sniping on Polar Highlands, sure, radar is sometimes unnecessary.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2016 - 09:46 AM, said:

So this is where I'm going to bring up something I've said for a while, if PGI wants to make radar actually useful and Information Warfare a thing, they need to give certain mechs the ability to detect without LOS. A mech that has less firepower but can tell when or when not to poke against an enemy is incredibly useful in certain situations, as is being able to scout without ever having to expose yourself to enemy. These are the sort of situations that make radar useful, not shoehorning direct fire weapons to require locks to do optimal damage or making it so some mechs can't get doritos until the enemy is within 200m, that actually reduces the importance of radar (and forces engagement ranges to shorten).

Role warfare is already a joke on most maps, because it's so easy to tell where the enemy is coming from. You get a light mech to run ahead on a map like Viridian Bog or Forest Colony, set up on a hill, its radar cuts through the foliage like the Eye of Sauron, and you've spotted the whole enemy team 1 minute into the match. (This is why I love Polar Highlands, it actually takes some effort to spot the enemy team)

If the enemy team is a bit clever and unpredictable, it doesn't end there. You have to put up UAVs to keep an eye on their movements, to make sure you win the Nascar, or to make sure they're not enveloping your deathball, or whatever.

If you give certain mechs, radar that doesn't need LOS, you basically end all that. It's like having a mega UAV running around with your team at all times. No need to move around, no need to do anything special. Just park your SuperScouter Locust 9000 within 500 - 1000 meters of the enemy and you're golden.

As a light mech player, that sounds really, really dull.

The clue to making information warfare more important is to make scouts force multipliers. And the clue to making scouts more popular is to make their role more fun to play. When light mechs are just mobile UAVs or base cappers, nobody wants to play them. But when scouting is actually a highly interactive and difficult job, which has a huge impact on team success and also pays very well, then you see more scouts.

Ideally, MWO should have more huge maps like Polar Highlands (not necessarily all relatively flat and without cover, but all huge and without set paths for each team to attack through). On huge maps, the need for scouts is entirely organic and self-evident. But since MWO has lots of tiny maps with limited movement, and since MWO players love those tiny maps, you have to find other ways to make scouting fun and important.

[Monkey Lover]

I loved it and I hope they can do something with this system. It really put a hurt on the sniper alpha warriors and the people who don't press r.

At the same time it decreased ttk , made lights more useful , made all the targeting modules and range modules worth using.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 06 February 2016 - 10:26 AM.

[FupDup]

My concern with the radar from old MW games is that it would make sneak attacks or ambushes etc. pretty easy to discover before they happen, which would mostly invalidate those kind of tactics.

We already have a weaker version of that in the form of Seismic Wallhack, and even with it being much weaker than old MW game radars it still makes it laughably easy to figure out when someone is going to try to get close to you.

A stronger version of Seismic that has much longer range, the ability to detect while you're moving and the enemy isn't moving, and gives you an exact target indicator would be crazytown.

Edited by FupDup, 06 February 2016 - 10:29 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

I disagree. It proved that one particular version of Infotech wasn't enough to fix the game.

No, it is trying to force radar to be something it isn't, something that directly affects damage and not actual infotech.

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

First of all, there are many maps where you can't immediately spot all the mechs on the screen even if you have LOS. On Caustic there's too much smoke

Night Vision is your friend.

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

on Forest Colony there are trees, on River City mechs can often blend in with buildings from a distance.

Thermal is your friend.

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Second of all, the point of radar is to get target lock and then to see the paperdoll for target info. On top of that, you get to see the range to your target even without having your reticule directly aimed at them, which is important.

Neither of these are really that important. You can generally judge how close the enemy is by their surroundings or the grid the look to be in. Plus since range isn't hard limited you can generally do some damage unless you are brawl-y or it is Polar/Alpine/Tourmaline which are ERLL territory.

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

Role warfare is already a joke on most maps, because it's so easy to tell where the enemy is coming from. You get a light mech to run ahead on a map like Viridian Bog or Forest Colony, set up on a hill, its radar cuts through the foliage like the Eye of Sauron, and you've spotted the whole enemy team 1 minute into the match.

It also means you crest and stick out in one of the most checked areas.

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

If the enemy team is a bit clever and unpredictable, it doesn't end there. You have to put up UAVs to keep an eye on their movements

UAV's require you know where the enemy is in the first place and also requires your scout to put themselves in a dangerous position.

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

no need to do anything special. Just park your SuperScouter Locust 9000 within 500 - 1000 meters of the enemy and you're golden.

Except, both teams will have one so scouting will be more than just HURR DURR IMA CAMP THIS ONE SPOT, and I never specified the range.

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

The clue to making information warfare more important is to make scouts force multipliers.

You mean like being able to detect where the enemy is without exposure?

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

But when scouting is actually a highly interactive and difficult job, which has a huge impact on team success and also pays very well, then you see more scouts.

You mean like it is now?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 06 February 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

My concern with the radar from old MW games is that it would make sneak attacks or ambushes etc. pretty easy to discover before they happen, which would mostly invalidate those kind of tactics.

Sneak attacks/ambushes don't often happen, but being able to detect them is too hard for a light, there needs to at least be some give and take here that allows for scouts to actually be able to detect this, outside UAVs.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2016 - 10:41 AM.

[oldradagast]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

No, it is trying to force radar to be something it isn't, something that directly affects damage and not actual infotech.

That was my main problem with the silliness on the test server. Preventing a direct hit from doing full damage because "you don't have a radar lock yet" makes about as much sense as needing to identify a target's shoe size before the bullet that hit him is able to kill him. It was sloppy and illogical; some of the the other ideas, like nearly blind assault mechs, weren't much better, though.

[adamts01]

I'm all for info warfare. I don't think OP meant full radar function, like with lockable targets, just a blip like seismic. They could possibly introduce active/passive radar, and the sensor mechs could pull up active radars within 500m. That combined with needing an active radar lock to fire missiles would be cool. Also active radar while selecting an enemy (lockable or not) to have weapon convergence. That way ambushes could still work and there would be a reason for direct fire mechs to toggle between the modes.

[Mystere]

oldradagast, on 06 February 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

That was my main problem with the silliness on the test server. Preventing a direct hit from doing full damage because "you don't have a radar lock yet" makes about as much sense as needing to identify a target's shoe size before the bullet that hit him is able to kill him. It was sloppy and illogical; some of the the other ideas, like nearly blind assault mechs, weren't much better, though.

Let us not get overboard here. It makes sense for lasers if you assume they need a lock to focus and deliver maximum damage on a target. Ballistics are a different thing altogether though.

Having said that, I would still like full convergence on target lock and fixed convergence in the absence of one. In that way locks actually mean something.

Edited by Mystere, 06 February 2016 - 11:02 AM.

[adamts01]

I don't like the idea of ECM mechs having a dorito over their head, but maybe have a red box once you select them and a dorito after a delay caused by ECM. Maybe coupled with a reduced targetable range. Active Probe could add the radar blip of active radars at maybe 200m, along with it's current features.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 06 February 2016 - 11:04 AM, said:

I don't like the idea of ECM mechs having a dorito over their head, but maybe have a red box once you select them and a dorito after a delay caused by ECM. Maybe coupled with a reduced targetable range. Active Probe could add the radar blip of active radars at maybe 200m, along with it's current features.

Why do you think ECM mechs would have a dorito over their head? I would say they are shielded with Active Probe able to see through the bubble within a certain range.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[oldradagast]

Mystere, on 06 February 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Let us not get overboard here. It makes sense for lasers if you assume they need a lock to focus and deliver maximum damage on a target. Ballistics are a different thing altogether though.

Having said that, I would still like full convergence on target lock and fixed convergence in the absence of one. In that way locks actually mean something.

Eh, debatable - lasers were never portrayed in such a way, so it still felt slap-dash and silly. It was also a bad precedent since it wouldn't take much imagination to see them "balancing" everything with that goofy mechanic.

That being said, I also prefer a cone of fire or delayed convergence with a target lock improving accuracy, not making damage magically appear

[adamts01]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2016 - 11:08 AM, said:

Why do you think ECM mechs would have a dorito over their head? I would say they are shielded with Active Probe able to see through the bubble within a certain range.

I wasn't able to partake in testing, but wasn't removing the hard counter to locks removed from ECM? I would imagine that if any mech could lock them then they'd have the typical red dorito.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 06 February 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

I wasn't able to partake in testing, but wasn't removing the hard counter to locks removed from ECM? I would imagine that if any mech could lock them then they'd have the typical red dorito.

I don't remember, but as far as I'm concerned, the point of ECM needs to be shifted anyway, they also need to allow missiles to get locks regardless of doritos but that's another story.

[adamts01]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

I don't remember, but as far as I'm concerned, the point of ECM needs to be shifted anyway, they also need to allow missiles to get locks regardless of doritos but that's another story.

I absolutely agree. From what I understand, it was going to turn in to a set counter to locks by just increasing lock on time. As for OPs radar thing, maybe they could add that ECM can run active radar without showing up as a blip, unless the scout mech also had active probe.

I also agree with Alistair in that we need bigger maps, so scouting is necessary.

As far as role warfare, making assaults less maneuverable but twice heat efficient and armored as they are would make lights a scout, and counter to assaults, while assaults would melt absolutely everything in front of them, as long as their flanks are supported.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

adamts01, on 06 February 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

As for OPs radar thing, maybe they could add that ECM can run active radar without showing up as a blip, unless the scout mech also had active probe.

That's the idea, though at some point the ECM mech should be able to pick up.

adamts01, on 06 February 2016 - 11:31 AM, said:

I also agree with Alistair in that we need bigger maps, so scouting is necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I want bigger maps, but bigger maps don't necessarily make scouting more important. Scouting is currently very important because a lot of maps give you minimal time to get into position before potentially facing heat from the enemy team. Bigger maps give you more time to take positions as well as give time for scouts to battle it out before the main engagement.

[Alistair Winter]

I don't have time for this, but I just want to point out that Infotech doesn't necessarily mean Ghost Range (i.e. Paul's idea about lasers having less range without target lock). Infotech can just refer to quirks for detecting enemy targets or being detected yourself.

People always get the two mixed, like how people mix Collisions and Knockdowns. Two different things.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alistair Winter, on 06 February 2016 - 11:40 AM, said:

Infotech can just refer to quirks for detecting enemy targets or being detected yourself.

Yes, and that was pointless as well, especially on big maps that you want like Polar.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 06 February 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[adamts01]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 06 February 2016 - 11:42 AM, said:

Yes, and that was pointless as well, especially on big maps that you want like Polar.

If I was lockable at 400 instead of 800 that would be a huge advantage on Polar. That would mean I could provide locks on their LRM boat while he can't lock me. Plus, many players don't notice you until you show up as a red dorito on the map or screen, especially if you're dodging in and out of cover.

[Pocket_Aces]

Quote

[color=#959595]So this is where I'm going to bring up something I've said for a while, if PGI wants to make radar actually useful and Information Warfare a thing, they need to give certain mechs the ability to detect without LOS. A mech that has less firepower but can tell when or when not to poke against an enemy is incredibly useful in certain situations, as is being able to scout without ever having to expose yourself to enemy.[/color]

It's called BAP, but in the game it doesn't function like it should.

The sensors we currently have in game are what is called passive radar, you only can only lock what you can see. Where as BAP is active radar, the only problem with active radar is that passive radar can pick it up. If they used BAP like it should then it should be a slot, much like ECM, so only a few select mechs can carry it.